UKC

I've some Friends that probably require new slings and I suspect they are much older than Wild Country will be prepared to touch. However, they have not been used all that much, not least because I've been mainly sport climbing for the last few years so I am prepared to carry on using them. Nevertheless I think they would be better with new slings. Obviously I can just cut the old slings off and replace with tape tied with a tape knot but, before I do, does anyone know a company willing to replace the slings with stitched?

In reply to Wiley Coyote: Not in the eu apparently only manufacturers can legally do it.. 8mm rope will fit through wc friends.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It will, but the knot will annoy you no end.

Use either 5.5mm dyneema cord (as strong as 9mm rope) - but with a triple fishermans knot - or a 30cm thin tape sling doubled through the eye and both ends clipped. If you do the latter you can extend the cam further by slipping one loop down to larksfoot the eye.

In reply to JJL:

Should have mentioned that needlesports sell purpose-cut lengths of 5.5mm cord:
http://tinyurl.com/6kaurbx

and the right extenders:
http://tinyurl.com/6xdgy3y

In reply to Wiley Coyote: I would just use 1 cm tubular tape with a knot. Of course the knots are a bit more bulky than stitched, but really once you start using them you won't notice any difference at all - or at least I never did.

In reply to TobyA: 1cm tape? That isn't going to be very strong, expecially with knots in.

In reply to JJL:


I have used this method for years. My original (30 year old) No3 had to be retired last year only because of terminal wire failure).

Currently I have some neat 24cm Mammut dyneema loops. Don't like the idea of extending by larks footing though.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Thanks everyone for the info.
WC

In reply to Richard Hall:

I've done a quick search but I can't actually find 1cm tubular tape on sale, however Beal 16mm tubular tape is rated at 13.5 kN, about the same rating as a rock on wire. Being tied in a loop and thus doubled up that should be plenty strong enough, even allowing for knots.

In reply to RichardMc: You can thread the sling such that it's sort of larks-footed onto the cam, but without any fabric-on-fabric contact so no loss of strength. Hard to describe how to do it without a picture!

If there was a 10cm long 8mm open sling available that would be ideal.

In reply to JJL: Actually never had the knot annoy me using 8mm. I prefer this to using tape which I have to use on my hb quadcams. I find the triple fishermans on dyneema cord more annoying and dyneemam cord is much more expensive and know where near as hard wearing or reliable after repeated flexing.

In reply to JJL: Personally I wouldnt use larks foot in this senario not only is the sling much weaker but also much less predictable and have been known to fail from abbing never mind lead falls. Having two ends of a sling to clip also seems prone to accidental miss clipping of the loops.

In reply to Flashy:

You could also double the sling through the cam, in the Chris Tan 'Death' style shown here: http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Pretty sure there's no legal problem with it, more to do with worries about liability issues I think. (Ok, splitting hairs I know.)

There is a company in the USA who do it, if you have the time to send them over there and get them back again:
http://www.mtntools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
One of the solutions I've seen to this is to use a 30 cm dyneema sling doubled over with both ends clipped and a bit of tubular tape threaded over the sling to hold everything in place tidily.

In reply to deepsoup: Nope pretty sure only the manufacturer can do it in the eu.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Don't believe you, but happy to stand corrected if you can elaborate on that. How is it illegal for someone else to do it?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Does that mean you think I could be arrested for re slinging my own cams?

In reply to deepsoup: Well find me one place in th eu that will resling a cam they did not manufacture then. The area of legislation you should look up is the eu regulations on ppe.

In reply to deepsoup: In the eu manufacturers have a legal obligation to abide by the ppe laws. I'm no lawyer but as I understand they can not practically abide by these laws and resling cams from other manufacturers.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
http://shop.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=34949&itemt... D12 12 Strand Dyneema 5mm

Has anybody spliced 12 strand dyneema to a cam? a good splice is often as strong as the rope itself. Havent had a cam to resling but to me seems a good idea if you know how to splice well.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I very much doubt there is one, but that doesn't really support the assertion that it would be illegal. Its pretty academic anyway, as it certainly wouldn't be very profitable - it would be a fiddly time-consuming job that folk won't pay very much for. I suspect the reason nobody does it is simply that it isn't worth their while.


Well, they'd clearly need to CE mark the new sling.

The grey area is whether or not they would need to effectively CE mark the whole assembly (sling+cam). If so you'd clearly be right that only the original manufacturer could do that (and only for a cam that hasn't reached the end of its entirely arbitrary shelf-life).

I think probably not, but like you I don't really know so unless someone comes along who does that's as far as we're going to get.

In reply to lumu_tit:

I know how to tie knots well so, as it's my neck we're talking about, I think I'll stick to what I know.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

5.5mm dyneema tied with a triple fishermans knot works just fine on WC friends. I had to do this as I wore out the sling early last year so I replaced it. I was a little nervous about doing it, but it's been fine and so far there has been no problems

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I bought 6mm Beal 20cm slings, you can poke them through doubled then either clip 'em like that or larksfoot them (can be done more neatly than it sounds).

jk

In reply to jkarran:

That's a good idea. I'm going to try this on some of my older cams.

As an aside - does anyione know where I can get Friends re-wired?

E

In reply to Enty:
you can just buy a kit for re-wiring friends:-
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/wild-country-technical-friend-trigger-repair-kit...

In reply to Enty:
>>
I just got a mate of a mate who works in engineering to do it for me when Wild Country refused. He said itb was a simple job. I figured that as the wires were not a load-bearing part of the Friend it ought to be OK. So far, so good.

Thanks (again) to everyone who answered my query. I'm a bit dubious about the larksfooting as I've always thought that was supposed to reduce the strength of the sling?

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


It does but less than 'very strong' can still be 'adequately strong', the cam itself is only rated at 12kN. Oh and it doesn't actually form a larksfoot, the sling lies over the stem rather than itself but there's no better way of describing it.

In that configuration my concern is not for the sling but for the bending force it applies to the (hollow) forged cable termination, a part that would originally have been loaded only in tension. Also once it's pulled tight the sling will not move so wear will concentrate on the 'bumps' where it meets the stem. For those reasons (which I doubt are serious issues in reality but haven't verified) I usually just leave the slings doubled and clip both loops.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Sorry. I was not refering to yours as larksfooting but some of those above. My only concern with the idea of doubling a sling through was that I might, in extremis or a sem-blind awkward placement, clip only one loop rather than both. Is there a foolproof way of guarding against this? I know I should check, and I would check but Murphy's Law is what binds the universe together.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
you could sew them together, the needle shouldn't break the fibres just part them.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


You could stick some finger tape around the loops of the sling to make it one loop, or if you're worried about glue + dyneema then instead of clipping a quickdraw to the sling, clip the tape of the draw to the crab on your cam (which you've already put on correctly before you climbed), if you see what I mean.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Two (actually three) points:
1. CE doesn't allow for repair of metalwork over ten years because when we accept it for repair if we send it out again we have to be able to verify it's state and CE have deemed that beyond 10 years products are in an unverifiable state (they have assigned each product a 'lifespan'). Thus this precludes re-slinging as even though we are not actually repairing the metal work we have to accept the metalwork and send it out again which would give us responsiblity over it's future behaviour.

2. There is also a sound point that well used Friends of over 10 years will certainly suffer and often be much more worn that it appears from a quick glance. And if there is wear this can seriously compromise placement integrity. Basically for some reason climbers seem to think that climbing gear never wears out and that lifesaving bit of kit that's been used for 20 years will always be sound...not sure why...

3. New Helium Friends will be on the shelves in a month look here...
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/Products/HeliumFriends1/
just treat yourself and don't die for that sake of a few quid and a crappy larksfooted tape!!

In reply to Wiley Coyote: http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm







Maybe not what your after but...

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Wired Bliss do: http://www.wiredblissusa.com/Repairs.html

In reply to Richie Patterson, Wild Country:

Hi Richie,
Thanks for the advice. I can assure you I have no wish to be the richest man in the cemetery and actually have a reputation for retiring things like ropes too early because of my highly developed sense of self-preservation. However, these cams have not been heavily used - no more than half a dozen times in total on sea cliffs for example and not probably less than three or four times a year in the last six years - but all are over ten years old so I understand why you cannot re-sling them for me. However,I am personally confident the metalwork is still in excellent condition but I will feel happier is the tapes are renewed, hence my query.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Hi Richie,
Thanks for the advice. I can assure you I have no wish to be the richest man in the cemetery and actually have a reputation for retiring things like ropes too early because of my highly developed sense of self-preservation (aka cowardice). However, these cams have not been heavily used - no more than half a dozen times in total on sea cliffs for example and probably less than three or four times a year in the last six years - but all are over ten years old so I understand why you cannot re-sling them for me. However,I am personally confident the metalwork is still in excellent condition but I will feel happier is the tapes are renewed, hence my query.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
You are actually in a good position here as your cams, although old, are in good nick. Last year I decided it was time to retire my aged set of HB Flexi-fit cams, all in good nick but like yours, old. I flogged the lot on that auction site individually. Don't sell as a set as you'll get less. Folks may get a number 2 stuck and want to replace just the number 2 etc also, if you are honest in your descriptions, put up good photos and don't take the piss on the P&P <up to a pound 'profit' on P&P to cover shoe leather is fine IMO> they will sell for more than you think, I sold 8 HB cams and got 50% of the price of a set of 6 WC tech freinds. Brand new cams sort of half price then! Also, consider where you are now and how that relates to your choice of new cam. I went for the WC ones simply because I know them, trust them and the small size cross-over suits my climbing but also the trigger wire repair kits are the best of the lot, the trigger bars being designed to be able to accomadate repair kits and as long as you send them in before 10 years you can have new slings. Future proof.
There is an age checker on the WC site that'll date your cams from the number stamped on the stem. If you can hold out a while, you'll get even more for your old cams in the spring when folks are keen and building racks up etc.
Hope this helps.

In reply to Richie Patterson, Wild Country:


Hi Richie, do you have any evidence that slings attached in this way are 'crappy'? I ask because I'd obviously rather not die prematurely but I'd also rather not have to bin perfectly serviceable metalwork because of restrictive legal obligations placed on suppliers of PPE when I want to effect a simple repair.

The datasheet supplied with the 'crappy' slings I've used suggests that when used larksfooted* they are capable of holding 16kN, some 4kN more than the WC and BD metalwork they're attached to is rated at. Ok, so small set-up differences can make big differences to results so I'm under no illusions they'd actually take exactly 16kN in this specific configuration but then nor can I see they're so seriously compromised as to be inadequate.

*Actually I just use them doubled anyway, extended out with a larksfoot they're too long.

I appreciate you're probably unable (or at least understandably unwilling) to endorse a jerry-rigged set-up you've not seen, tested or been paid to test/endorse but I do think condemning it out of hand is a bit off. Unless of course you do have relevant data in which case I'm all ears (and potentially in the market for some new cams).

jk

In reply to jkarran:

This is how I re-slung mine:

http://www.webclimbing.com/knotbowlineonbight.html

Thread the sling through the cam. (so it sits at the bottom of the loop in the pic). The end of the sling doing all the ins and outs and overs; goes over the rest of the sling and the cam.

Very quick. Very strong. Very neat.

In reply to brt:
looks the best solution so far, wonder how reliable with dyneemna it is?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Mine are snug and don't seem to loosen - I applied body weight and some bounce. Any slippage during a fall would see it cinch up rather than come undone (as a re-tied sling might with Dyneema).

In reply to brt:
I wonder how safe this knot is as a tie in in the middle of a rope?

is the knot safe if only one of the strands gets loaded?

I'd like to see some tests done on dyneema but tbh I can't imagine it's any worse than knotting a sling with an overhand knot.

Here's some tests from other knots in different types of sling.
http://adriannelhams.blogspot.com/2010/11/sling-strengths.html

In reply to CurlyStevo:
This site suggests you can use it as a tie in (with a backup knot which IMO would not be essential as a tie in to the middle of the rope)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowline_on_a_bight

In reply to brt:

That is neat, good idea.
jk

In reply to jkarran:
yes I tried it last night.

Looks possibly like a good way to tie in to the middle of the rope if the leader has tied in to both ends too.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

That is good. Great for doubling up a 60m half rope a short crags.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
As mentioned several times this is by far the best solution.
http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm

In reply to Rat know-all:
I don't like that, I don't rack my friends on a single biners and I often extend them

In reply to CurlyStevo:
you could make a sling draw out of this version to for use with cams with a wide hoop where the sling goes.

In reply to Rat know-all:

It doesn't get rid of the potential for only clipping one end of the sling if the krab is removed, in fact could make it worse if one end slipped inside the tubular tape.

The resulting cam sling may be a bit stiff.

Damage to the sling could end up hidden inside the tubular tape

In reply to Rat know-all:

It works; but there are (already mentioned) drawbacks.

All useful stuff though.

As for tying into the middle of a single rope for using as doubles; it's what I do.