UKC

Hey all.

I live in Scotland and am quite keen on Munroing.

This year after doing Meall nan Tarmachan, Ben Lawers and Stob Dearg in snow, i hope to tackle more this year with my own non-rented ice axe.

I was recently in Tiso's and talking to the chap about ice axes, i asked him would a larger or longer spike on an ice axe help to arrest a slide quicker, especialy since im quite well built and weight about 16 stone, to which i was blatantly laughed at by himself and a colleague i thought off beat and rudely, but thats a customer service issue.

But I dont presume to think i know it all, and merely applied some basic physics and have noticed normal axes, when still being used properly can take a little bit of time to fully stop me, again when being properly used too.

I wouldnt use a small nail to hold a large piece of wood and i wondered (bearing in mind i dont mind being wrong) just why a normal axe is good enough and why one with a longer or larger spike/head wouldnt benefit me?

Thanks

In reply to Tod:

I should point out its just a walking axe, not for vertical climb.

In reply to Tod:
I guess you are referring to the 'pick' on an axe (the normally curved and toothed bit that extends from the head on the opposite side to the adze?)

They do tend to be of a fairly uniform size for each axe; and there is no option for 'longer' or 'shorter' that I've come across. Bear in mind that they are not specifically designed for self arrest but should also be able to aid progress.

Your physics are probably correct but one issue to consider is speed of arrest; a dead long pick going in too quickly might well result in a dead stop for the axe with a resulting dead loss of the axe by the sliding 'fallee' who might then become....

In reply to andyathome:

The pick indeed.

Well taking that onboard, i wouldnt think to use something more resembling a sythe, but hope bring me to a stop in a shorter distance than the ones i currenty use do. 2.5 inches longer? 3? Nothing more id think, but a shorter yet more manageable and prefered stopping distance is all.

In reply to Tod:
basically, stop worrying about it. If you try and stop over less distance you'll likely not be able to hold the axe anyway so just buy the axe which feels best rather than the one with the longest pick.

At the end of the day try not to slip over and start sliding in the first place as once you start there is no guarentee self arrest will work. The snow may be too icey or the ground too steep. Thankfully in many snow conditions it's soft enough self arrest would not be necessary anyway.

I've never had to use it myself.

In reply to Tod:
Nothing wrong with your physics Tod, and it's a reasonable question. I find that when the snow is hard enough for a self-arrest, you will stop just fine with any ice axe. When the snow is soft and the pick just slices through, I'd use my elbows (this may sound shocking to those who haven't tried it) - two elbows in soft snow stop you way faster than an ice axe in those conditions. When I learned to self-arrest, our instructor wouldn't let us use ice axes until we'd mastered the elbow/elbows technique. Why don't they make tools with longer picks? I think it comes down to designing what is best for all-around use. Self-arresting is never instantaneous. Bottom line: I wouldn't worry about the length of your pick.

In reply to Graham:
I recall reading some research years ago about the width of the pick. It concluded that walking axes with a proper forged head (e.g. the old mountain tech mountaineering axe) were significantly better at arresting than a cheaper axe with a pressed steel head.

The reason? Well the width of a forged pick tends to be something like 5-7mm whereas a pressed steel one can be around 3mm, so work it out for yourself (remember we're generally talking Scottish ice not iron hard arctic stuff).

In reply to Tod:

Technique. Best not to slip and fall but if it happens ensure your technique is sorted. I've taken a tumble a few times in the past (not paying attention) and successfully arrested.

My experience of training and assessing leaders and instuctors over twenty years is that self arrest is a skill you hope to never use but if you have to use it you'd better be bloody good at it. That takes good technique and lot's and lot's of practice.

I think your view about length of the pick is a wee bit of Red Herring - fast reactions coupled with excellent self arrest technique is key. That and being really good on your feet/crampons so you don't slip in the first place.

Cheers fur noo
George

In reply to Siward:

This is good. Facts and figures. I like the sound of them, i think ill try and look for one i suppose.

I do appreciate everyone encouraging me to just not fall, and ive decided to take that advice onboard..!

But i will also try and find one of these axes and at least shave a modest amount of slide off, we stand tall in all different shapes and sizes.

Axes- to a degree- thankfully too.