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With a view to climbing trad routes with long walk-ins, and not being as young or fit as I used to be, I've decided I want to buy a complete new lightweight rack (which I won't let anywhere near a seacliff, honest). I've been googling away, but would appreciate the colective wisdom.
Cams - either WC Helium Friends, DMM Dragons or ?
Wires - DMM walnuts and microwalnuts or ?
QDs - WC Helium or DMM Alpha Light or ?
Also racking Krabs?
Ropes - I'm thinking 2 skinny 50m + appropriate belay devices - what would people recommend?
Thanks for your input.
Cams - either WC Helium Friends, DMM Dragons or ?
Wires - DMM walnuts and microwalnuts or ?
QDs - WC Helium or DMM Alpha Light or ?
Also racking Krabs?
Ropes - I'm thinking 2 skinny 50m + appropriate belay devices - what would people recommend?
Thanks for your input.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Something that's been on my mind too of late. These thoughts are possibly just typical gear cravings mind.
Super light rocks look cool but I wonder how they would stand up to the abuse the average wire endures...
Quickdraw wise the new Petzl Ange Finesse or similar look so small and light.
The old DMM 4cu which are now cheap as chips seem to be lighter than equivalent WC or DMM or BD units. I could be wrong but the larger sizes defo seem lighter. I prefer WC or BD though..
Icelines are a possible contender for ropes though they are super skinny and not as encouraging as a fat single (I find). Belay device wise I use a WC variable controller (teeth etc.) and 2 locking carabiners which seems to do the trick, braking wise. Not much experience of different models here so someone else may/will know more.
Racking crabs - any old nu-skool light biner would do for me I think.
there you go!
Something that's been on my mind too of late. These thoughts are possibly just typical gear cravings mind.
Super light rocks look cool but I wonder how they would stand up to the abuse the average wire endures...
Quickdraw wise the new Petzl Ange Finesse or similar look so small and light.
The old DMM 4cu which are now cheap as chips seem to be lighter than equivalent WC or DMM or BD units. I could be wrong but the larger sizes defo seem lighter. I prefer WC or BD though..
Icelines are a possible contender for ropes though they are super skinny and not as encouraging as a fat single (I find). Belay device wise I use a WC variable controller (teeth etc.) and 2 locking carabiners which seems to do the trick, braking wise. Not much experience of different models here so someone else may/will know more.
Racking crabs - any old nu-skool light biner would do for me I think.
there you go!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I have a pair of Mammut Pheonix 8mm ropes and use the buggette with them, I have a spare buggette for anyone I climb with other than my regular partner as a standard belay plate and 8mm ropes is somewhat slick!
For a single we have a Mammut serenity, beutiful rope to handle.
I have helium QD's too, not cheap but very light full size crabs. I changed my standard hexes for DMMs Torque nuts thinking that 4 is lighter than 7 plus you don't have to use a QD with them if you extend the sling. Racking crabs I use WC Oxygens, nice clean nose crab, not the lightest but very usable. I'm bog standard WC tech friends and nuts though, I didn't notice a difference worth the change when climbing with mates WC super-light nuts.
I have a pair of Mammut Pheonix 8mm ropes and use the buggette with them, I have a spare buggette for anyone I climb with other than my regular partner as a standard belay plate and 8mm ropes is somewhat slick!
For a single we have a Mammut serenity, beutiful rope to handle.
I have helium QD's too, not cheap but very light full size crabs. I changed my standard hexes for DMMs Torque nuts thinking that 4 is lighter than 7 plus you don't have to use a QD with them if you extend the sling. Racking crabs I use WC Oxygens, nice clean nose crab, not the lightest but very usable. I'm bog standard WC tech friends and nuts though, I didn't notice a difference worth the change when climbing with mates WC super-light nuts.
In reply to JH74:
They are fine in a robust sense, but can't do the job of a normal wire, they are offset though, so make a brilliant second set of wires.
They are REALLY stretchy as they are so skinny, also they wear much quicker so I would not choose them for trad.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
>
>
> Super light rocks look cool but I wonder how they would stand up to the abuse the average wire endures...
They are fine in a robust sense, but can't do the job of a normal wire, they are offset though, so make a brilliant second set of wires.
> Icelines are a possible contender for ropes though they are super skinny and not as encouraging as a fat single (I find).
They are REALLY stretchy as they are so skinny, also they wear much quicker so I would not choose them for trad.
In reply to Mark Kemball: just climb with someone who's fitter than you and get them to do all the work on the walk in!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I built up my rack with similar stuff in mind. For a typical route I carry:
3-4 DMM 4CU cams
DMM Wallnuts 1-11 (double set of 1-6)
5x DMM Spectre quickdraws + 3x Slingdraws
3x DMM Aero screwgates + HMS
Petzl Reverso 3 belay device
Petzl Meteor helmet
Mammut 50m 8.9mm Serenity rope
It's not the lightest/most stripped down rack you'll ever see but it's affordable and gets the job done.
I built up my rack with similar stuff in mind. For a typical route I carry:
3-4 DMM 4CU cams
DMM Wallnuts 1-11 (double set of 1-6)
5x DMM Spectre quickdraws + 3x Slingdraws
3x DMM Aero screwgates + HMS
Petzl Reverso 3 belay device
Petzl Meteor helmet
Mammut 50m 8.9mm Serenity rope
It's not the lightest/most stripped down rack you'll ever see but it's affordable and gets the job done.
In reply to Mark Kemball: Is your existing gear really old school and heavy? How much weight do you expect to save? Just curious
In reply to jonnie3430:
Why can't they do the job of a normal wire?
> They are fine in a robust sense, but can't do the job of a normal wire, they are offset though, so make a brilliant second set of wires.
Why can't they do the job of a normal wire?
In reply to Mark Kemball: Nick will be pleased!
In reply to Mark Kemball: take a good dump before you set out , thats got to save you more weight,
In reply to Mark Kemball: Thanks for all the ideas. Yes, my current rack is fairly old school, some of my krabs are Clog seconds bought in the 70s! Some of it is more modern, most of it is fairly trashed from regular outings on Cornish sea cliffs. So I think the potential for weight saving is significant.
In reply to Northern Climber:
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) just climb with someone who's fitter than you
I have relied on this technique for years, unfortunately my younger fitter partners are also no longer as young or fit as they used to be. (Although significantly younger and fitter than myself.) As someone remarked, Nic will be pleased!In reply to gd303uk:
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) take a good dump before you set out
Also a well used technique In reply to galpinos:
Sorry, that's in my opinion. It's because they only go 1-6, so the larger sizes are missing and the width is now halved and is offset (some normal nuts are offset too, I know,) which works really well for some placements, but doesn't give you the normal nut range.
I carry a normal set of wires and carry these which act as doubles, but I can also use them offset which is really handy.
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> [...]
>
> Why can't they do the job of a normal wire?
>
> [...]
>
> Why can't they do the job of a normal wire?
Sorry, that's in my opinion. It's because they only go 1-6, so the larger sizes are missing and the width is now halved and is offset (some normal nuts are offset too, I know,) which works really well for some placements, but doesn't give you the normal nut range.
I carry a normal set of wires and carry these which act as doubles, but I can also use them offset which is really handy.
In reply to Mark Kemball: i saved loads of weight when i changed to lightweight crabs,camp nanos for cams/racking and ange finesse quickdraws,i would change all the nanos for the petzl ange but it would cost too much,the ange has a slightly bigger opening than the nanos and a clean no snag nose.
i thought of the superlight rocks but they are weak...,i prefer bd stoppers,no lighter than the rest but shorter/easy to clean and seem to clutter up the harness less being shorter and having smaller swaging.
wc neon scrwgates where size dosent matter and petzl attache 3d for belaying and multi rope anchors (these are the best screwgate going i think,light,nice grippy knurled screw and a red indicator if not screwed up)
not sure which are the lightest cams,but the 3-4cu's are light and cheap and i like em but some peeps dont,there are offers on helium cams at the mo..
6 or 8mm slings help a bit on packability and weight.
ive used mammut phoenix 8mm ropes for everything but bolt clipping for years now,much much more durable than icelines,if fact as durable and any 8.5-9mm ive ever used..yes its true,these are light and very durable.i changed my last pair just because they were over 5 years old on principle..the ropes were fine.the only one downside to these ropes is if there are lots of ledges/rock features for you to hit in a fall due to stretch but 99% of the time its not an issue,they stretch less than icelines from what i can tell.
lightweight packable harness..arcteryx or camp
and a light sack to put it all in ..blue ice warthog..
cliff....
i thought of the superlight rocks but they are weak...,i prefer bd stoppers,no lighter than the rest but shorter/easy to clean and seem to clutter up the harness less being shorter and having smaller swaging.
wc neon scrwgates where size dosent matter and petzl attache 3d for belaying and multi rope anchors (these are the best screwgate going i think,light,nice grippy knurled screw and a red indicator if not screwed up)
not sure which are the lightest cams,but the 3-4cu's are light and cheap and i like em but some peeps dont,there are offers on helium cams at the mo..
6 or 8mm slings help a bit on packability and weight.
ive used mammut phoenix 8mm ropes for everything but bolt clipping for years now,much much more durable than icelines,if fact as durable and any 8.5-9mm ive ever used..yes its true,these are light and very durable.i changed my last pair just because they were over 5 years old on principle..the ropes were fine.the only one downside to these ropes is if there are lots of ledges/rock features for you to hit in a fall due to stretch but 99% of the time its not an issue,they stretch less than icelines from what i can tell.
lightweight packable harness..arcteryx or camp
and a light sack to put it all in ..blue ice warthog..
cliff....
In reply to Mark Kemball:
DMM phantoms, excellent for trad quickdraws and adequate for racking cams.
DMM phantoms, excellent for trad quickdraws and adequate for racking cams.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
For screwgates, CAMP Orbit is, I think, the lightest available. Great for using in your belay. If you need a few larger, the Guide is huge and strong as well as quite light.
Belay device, I don't think you can go wrong with the DMM Bugette. It is unbelievably light. Only works with skinny ropes though.
As for ropes, I can't recommend any, but I think this is where you'll make your biggest weight saving so worth spending out if uber lightness is your goal.
Harness, again have a look at some CAMP stuff like the Aero. Might be a bit scrawny for multi pitch though.
For screwgates, CAMP Orbit is, I think, the lightest available. Great for using in your belay. If you need a few larger, the Guide is huge and strong as well as quite light.
Belay device, I don't think you can go wrong with the DMM Bugette. It is unbelievably light. Only works with skinny ropes though.
As for ropes, I can't recommend any, but I think this is where you'll make your biggest weight saving so worth spending out if uber lightness is your goal.
Harness, again have a look at some CAMP stuff like the Aero. Might be a bit scrawny for multi pitch though.
In reply to Mark Kemball: Several thoughts...
The easiest option is just to take less gear. As an experienced climber you should be in a really good position to do that (once you get your head round it).
Be confident with ropes. Go shorter and/or go back to singles. As an example, when I climbed South Ridge Direct on Arran we used a 33m single rope. It was an old 10mm+ one but it was absolutely perfect and massively lighter than any option of using shiny new doubles/twins. A 35m or 40m Beal Joker would be an awesome rope for going fast and light on traditional UK mountain routes. The one thing UK rock routes are generally not, is inescapable.
With other gear, take fewer screwgates. Two screwgates per person in addition to your belay krab is ample. One is workable although it can get awkward, especially if you want go for the Petzl Reverso 4 (IMO the best lightweight belay option) and wish to be able to use it fully. I'd probably go for two DMM Shadow screwgates rather then a larger number of smaller one like the DMM Phantom. A DMM Sentinel works great as a lightweight belay krab.
Take markedly fewer quickdraws (only 6 in many cases, perhaps as few as 4) but carry around 4+ short slings and a fair number of extra wiregates. Neither Torque nuts nor DMM cams with doubled slings should normally require extenders. Also, you don't need to automatically use an extender with every wire, there is a fair chance that around 1 wire per pitch will be in no danger of lifting out and be sufficiently inline not to require any extension.
Take fewer wires. On an easy route, DMM Wallnuts 3-9 & 11 (or better 3-9 & Torque Nut 1) are probably easily sufficient. Even on harder routes consider whether you need really need all 4 of sizes 8-11. I think superlights are amazing but are best in sizes 5&6 and perhaps 4. Try cutting down on smaller wires and micros to keep your wires to two racking krabs not three. If you need 3 krabs you are not really going lightweight.
As alluded to above, a DMM Torque Nut 1 potentially beats a Wallnut 11 when going lightweight as the TNut won't require an extender. As such I'd say 2 or 3 out of TNuts 1-3 would be an essential component of any lightweight rack. However, don't fall into the trap of automatically taking all 4 just because it was cheaper for you to buy the set.
On camming devices (Heliums, Demons, 4CUs), the default option should be half a set that you remove of add cams to/from, NOT a full set that you remove cams from. With Dragons, the whole set is lighter but you can't as easily go to a half set. All I can say is that I'd go Dragons or Demons as the DMM doubled sling puts them miles ahead of WC Heliums when going lightweight (provided you've taken fewer quickdraws).
As regards racking krabs it is most certainly a case personal preference; oval or offset-D; keylock or non-keylock. I use bent gate Petzl Spirits and probably won't change. DMM Aero bent/straight gates offer a decent and cheap option but you have a fairly wide choice including Shadows and various snapgate and wiregate ovals.
On which wiregate krabs to buy, my personal opinion is the DMM Spetre 2 are a good compromise between cost vs weight. That said I'd happily swap them all for WC Heliums if it didn't cost me anymore. My concern about Alpha lights, Phantoms and Nanos is that whilst they are great on quickdraws they, cost a lot and are a bit fiddly for racking 120/240cm slings or using in building belays. I prefer all my krabs to generally all be the same so I'd be tending more to the all-round performance of the Helium/Spectre 2 rather than just focusing on the superlight performance of Phantoms/Alpha Lights/Nanos. Equally, I wouldn't complain about climbing on a friend's rack with any of them on it. I'd suggest playing with them all but in the end it may just come down to whoever is doing the lowest discounted price.
However, in the end I go back to my first point. Being bold, taking a shorter rope or a single rope and less gear saves you money and is infinitely more effective than than carrying a massive rack of the latest superlight carabiners.
Hope all that helps.
The easiest option is just to take less gear. As an experienced climber you should be in a really good position to do that (once you get your head round it).
Be confident with ropes. Go shorter and/or go back to singles. As an example, when I climbed South Ridge Direct on Arran we used a 33m single rope. It was an old 10mm+ one but it was absolutely perfect and massively lighter than any option of using shiny new doubles/twins. A 35m or 40m Beal Joker would be an awesome rope for going fast and light on traditional UK mountain routes. The one thing UK rock routes are generally not, is inescapable.
With other gear, take fewer screwgates. Two screwgates per person in addition to your belay krab is ample. One is workable although it can get awkward, especially if you want go for the Petzl Reverso 4 (IMO the best lightweight belay option) and wish to be able to use it fully. I'd probably go for two DMM Shadow screwgates rather then a larger number of smaller one like the DMM Phantom. A DMM Sentinel works great as a lightweight belay krab.
Take markedly fewer quickdraws (only 6 in many cases, perhaps as few as 4) but carry around 4+ short slings and a fair number of extra wiregates. Neither Torque nuts nor DMM cams with doubled slings should normally require extenders. Also, you don't need to automatically use an extender with every wire, there is a fair chance that around 1 wire per pitch will be in no danger of lifting out and be sufficiently inline not to require any extension.
Take fewer wires. On an easy route, DMM Wallnuts 3-9 & 11 (or better 3-9 & Torque Nut 1) are probably easily sufficient. Even on harder routes consider whether you need really need all 4 of sizes 8-11. I think superlights are amazing but are best in sizes 5&6 and perhaps 4. Try cutting down on smaller wires and micros to keep your wires to two racking krabs not three. If you need 3 krabs you are not really going lightweight.
As alluded to above, a DMM Torque Nut 1 potentially beats a Wallnut 11 when going lightweight as the TNut won't require an extender. As such I'd say 2 or 3 out of TNuts 1-3 would be an essential component of any lightweight rack. However, don't fall into the trap of automatically taking all 4 just because it was cheaper for you to buy the set.
On camming devices (Heliums, Demons, 4CUs), the default option should be half a set that you remove of add cams to/from, NOT a full set that you remove cams from. With Dragons, the whole set is lighter but you can't as easily go to a half set. All I can say is that I'd go Dragons or Demons as the DMM doubled sling puts them miles ahead of WC Heliums when going lightweight (provided you've taken fewer quickdraws).
As regards racking krabs it is most certainly a case personal preference; oval or offset-D; keylock or non-keylock. I use bent gate Petzl Spirits and probably won't change. DMM Aero bent/straight gates offer a decent and cheap option but you have a fairly wide choice including Shadows and various snapgate and wiregate ovals.
On which wiregate krabs to buy, my personal opinion is the DMM Spetre 2 are a good compromise between cost vs weight. That said I'd happily swap them all for WC Heliums if it didn't cost me anymore. My concern about Alpha lights, Phantoms and Nanos is that whilst they are great on quickdraws they, cost a lot and are a bit fiddly for racking 120/240cm slings or using in building belays. I prefer all my krabs to generally all be the same so I'd be tending more to the all-round performance of the Helium/Spectre 2 rather than just focusing on the superlight performance of Phantoms/Alpha Lights/Nanos. Equally, I wouldn't complain about climbing on a friend's rack with any of them on it. I'd suggest playing with them all but in the end it may just come down to whoever is doing the lowest discounted price.
However, in the end I go back to my first point. Being bold, taking a shorter rope or a single rope and less gear saves you money and is infinitely more effective than than carrying a massive rack of the latest superlight carabiners.
Hope all that helps.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
If your existing kit is old then you're going to save a fair bit whatever you get so you may as well go for what you like. Kit you're familiar and comfortable with is a far greater asset than a few grams saving here or there.
jk
If your existing kit is old then you're going to save a fair bit whatever you get so you may as well go for what you like. Kit you're familiar and comfortable with is a far greater asset than a few grams saving here or there.
jk
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: To clarify on screw gates. A total of three per person? I would go on the cautious side and have five per person. I.e. one per piece of gear at each belay (expecting up to three pieces of gear at each), one to attach the belay sling to your harness, plus one to belay off. I assume you would place less gear and use wire gates instead?
In reply to Jon Wickham: How about two pieces of gear per belay (or use screw gates if more) and tying in with the rope rather than a sling?
Hi Mark,
The best and cheapest way to save weight is not to carry/buy too much gear.
The two easiest ways to save weight on you rack are ropes and karabiners.
With half ropes it is easy to save a bit of weight by buying 50m ropes instead of 60s. Although 8mm ropes are lighter they don't last as long in my experience and are less edge resistant. I would stick with a pair of dry treated 8.5s.
Karabiners are the other easy way to save weight.
Old school krabs (like your clogs) weigh over 60gs per krab.
Old school wire gates (WC wild wire, BD Hotwire) weigh around 45g.
Standard size wire gates (DMM Spectre 2, WC Helium) weigh around 33g.
Micro wire gates (DMM Phantom, Petzl Angle) weight around 27g each.
On my rack I normally carry 14 quick draws
3 wire gates krabs for slings
10 cams each racked on their own krab
That's 41 krabs (plus a few big ones for racking gear and a couple of screw gates)
Old School Krab 41 * 60g = 2.46kg
Old School wire gate 41 * 45g = 1.85kg
Standard wire gate 41 * 33g = 1.35kg
Micro wire gate 41 * 28g = 1.15kg
As you can see that's quite a big difference in weight.
I've used both DMM Spectres and DMM Phantoms extensively. I rate them both. Both are available in coloured packs, which are great for putting on cams. Wild country Heliums are a very good krabs (I've dropped all mine) and Joe Brown's have them for a good price at the moment.
I would avoid Camp Nanos and Metoluis Minis because they are just too small.
There is very little weight difference between different brands of cams and I would probably go for the ones you prefer.
There is not much between any of the current models. I really rate my BD Camalots, but you can't go wrong with any of them. I'd avoid Master Cams in the bigger sizes, as they aren't anodised and thus corrode quite quickly in my experience. For anything bellow friend size 0.5 I’d use dedicated micro cam. Master Cams, WC Zeros and Aliens (Only availible from Needle Sports) are good.
The new DMM Demon cams looks exceptionally good value for money and if you are used to using WC friends I’d probably buy them.
Like cams there isn't much weight difference between different brands of wires.
I'd probably stick with which ever you prefer out of WC Rocks or DMM Wallnuts because they are much stronger than other brands in the smaller sizes and work very well.
Although WC superlight rocks are very good and often go in trick placements where nothing else will. They aren't a substitute for a normal sets of wires.
If I were you I'd buy 1-10 of rocks or wallnuts and supplement it with a second set 1-8 of rocks or wallnuts.
Microwires: Mirco Wallnuts aren't very good. If I were you'd get a full set of DMM brass offsets and maybe add IMPs (The new name for RPs) in sizes 2 and 3.
Racking Krabs: Whilst tiny krabs are great for cams and quickdraws I find them two fiddly for racking wires on. I prefer to use bigger krabs for this purpose.
I really rate BD Oval Wires, which are massive but quite heavy. Some folk find them too symmetrical and don't like them. DMM shadows and Spectre2s are also good for racking krabs. They are a bit lighter too.
Harness and Helmet:
A light compact harness like the Arc'teryx R300 saves loads of weight and bulk in your bag. Mine is the most comfy harness I have ever had, but it is starting to look tatty after two years of hard use.
Helmet. Petzl Meteor 3 is the lightest and most comfy helmet I've ever used.
Belay plate and screw gates:
I'd get either the Petzl Reverso 4 or the BD ATC Guide. They guide is heavier but I would expect it to last longer. I've just retired my old reverso 3 because I'd wore sharp on it. I like using big Karabiners like the DMM Boa for my belay plate. They aren’t the lightest but they are massive and easy to tie off. A DMM Oval Screw gate would be a good lighter option. I don't recomend the Petzl Attached 3d. It is very lightweight and a good size but the screw gate comes open far too easily. See this scary picture: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=184281
I would also avoid the DMM sentinel as it can jam up your belay plate when the krab inverts.
If you really want to keep weight down don't bother with a reverso/guide plate and use simple small belay plate like the Petzl Verso or original WC Variable controller.
Another way to save weight is to only carry a couple of screw gates. DMM Phantoms are exceptionally light and not too small. I was gutted when I left them at crag! DMM Shadows are good too. I usually carry just two extra screwgates.
I would also carry three old krabs from your old rack. One to put your shoes on. another keep your prussiks on and third to keep your nutkey.
That way if and when you have bail of a route you don't have to leave any of you shinny new toys. However if you really want to push the lightweight boat out use camp nanos or metoluis minis.
In short the following would be a really good rack for trad climbing
2 50m dry treated ropes (Mammut Genesis, Beal Cobra II, DMM Prophet)
Petzl Meteor 3 Helmet
Arc’teryx R300 Harness
Petzl Verso Belay Plate and DMM Oval s/g
Or
BD ATC Guide and DMM Boa s/g
2 DMM Phantom s/g for building belays
Nut key plus old krab
Old spare krab for you trainers
Old spare krab with two prussiks
Quickdraws (either DMM Phantoms or if you find them too fiddly WC Heliums or DMM Spectre 2s)
8 15cm quickdraws
6 sling draws made up from 60cm 8mm slings
3 120cm 8mm plus 3 wire gates
Micro Cams
Green and Yellow Alien or Purple, Blue and Yellow Matercam.
Standard Cams
Set of DMM Demon Cams (0.5 – 4) or BD Camalots (0.3 – 4 including 2 size 2s)
Each racked on their own colour coded DMM Phantom or DMM Spectre2
Wires
1-10 of Rocks or Wallnuts and 1-8 of Rocks or Wallnuts.
Micro wires
Full set of DMM Brass Offsets plus IMPs size 2 and 3.
Racked on 3 or 4 DMM Shadows/Spectre2/BD Ovals depending on preference.
I think I might have gone a little bit over the top here, but I hope you find that helpful!
Tom (who definitely shouldn’t be writing his assignment right now!)
The best and cheapest way to save weight is not to carry/buy too much gear.
The two easiest ways to save weight on you rack are ropes and karabiners.
With half ropes it is easy to save a bit of weight by buying 50m ropes instead of 60s. Although 8mm ropes are lighter they don't last as long in my experience and are less edge resistant. I would stick with a pair of dry treated 8.5s.
Karabiners are the other easy way to save weight.
Old school krabs (like your clogs) weigh over 60gs per krab.
Old school wire gates (WC wild wire, BD Hotwire) weigh around 45g.
Standard size wire gates (DMM Spectre 2, WC Helium) weigh around 33g.
Micro wire gates (DMM Phantom, Petzl Angle) weight around 27g each.
On my rack I normally carry 14 quick draws
3 wire gates krabs for slings
10 cams each racked on their own krab
That's 41 krabs (plus a few big ones for racking gear and a couple of screw gates)
Old School Krab 41 * 60g = 2.46kg
Old School wire gate 41 * 45g = 1.85kg
Standard wire gate 41 * 33g = 1.35kg
Micro wire gate 41 * 28g = 1.15kg
As you can see that's quite a big difference in weight.
I've used both DMM Spectres and DMM Phantoms extensively. I rate them both. Both are available in coloured packs, which are great for putting on cams. Wild country Heliums are a very good krabs (I've dropped all mine) and Joe Brown's have them for a good price at the moment.
I would avoid Camp Nanos and Metoluis Minis because they are just too small.
There is very little weight difference between different brands of cams and I would probably go for the ones you prefer.
There is not much between any of the current models. I really rate my BD Camalots, but you can't go wrong with any of them. I'd avoid Master Cams in the bigger sizes, as they aren't anodised and thus corrode quite quickly in my experience. For anything bellow friend size 0.5 I’d use dedicated micro cam. Master Cams, WC Zeros and Aliens (Only availible from Needle Sports) are good.
The new DMM Demon cams looks exceptionally good value for money and if you are used to using WC friends I’d probably buy them.
Like cams there isn't much weight difference between different brands of wires.
I'd probably stick with which ever you prefer out of WC Rocks or DMM Wallnuts because they are much stronger than other brands in the smaller sizes and work very well.
Although WC superlight rocks are very good and often go in trick placements where nothing else will. They aren't a substitute for a normal sets of wires.
If I were you I'd buy 1-10 of rocks or wallnuts and supplement it with a second set 1-8 of rocks or wallnuts.
Microwires: Mirco Wallnuts aren't very good. If I were you'd get a full set of DMM brass offsets and maybe add IMPs (The new name for RPs) in sizes 2 and 3.
Racking Krabs: Whilst tiny krabs are great for cams and quickdraws I find them two fiddly for racking wires on. I prefer to use bigger krabs for this purpose.
I really rate BD Oval Wires, which are massive but quite heavy. Some folk find them too symmetrical and don't like them. DMM shadows and Spectre2s are also good for racking krabs. They are a bit lighter too.
Harness and Helmet:
A light compact harness like the Arc'teryx R300 saves loads of weight and bulk in your bag. Mine is the most comfy harness I have ever had, but it is starting to look tatty after two years of hard use.
Helmet. Petzl Meteor 3 is the lightest and most comfy helmet I've ever used.
Belay plate and screw gates:
I'd get either the Petzl Reverso 4 or the BD ATC Guide. They guide is heavier but I would expect it to last longer. I've just retired my old reverso 3 because I'd wore sharp on it. I like using big Karabiners like the DMM Boa for my belay plate. They aren’t the lightest but they are massive and easy to tie off. A DMM Oval Screw gate would be a good lighter option. I don't recomend the Petzl Attached 3d. It is very lightweight and a good size but the screw gate comes open far too easily. See this scary picture: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=184281
I would also avoid the DMM sentinel as it can jam up your belay plate when the krab inverts.
If you really want to keep weight down don't bother with a reverso/guide plate and use simple small belay plate like the Petzl Verso or original WC Variable controller.
Another way to save weight is to only carry a couple of screw gates. DMM Phantoms are exceptionally light and not too small. I was gutted when I left them at crag! DMM Shadows are good too. I usually carry just two extra screwgates.
I would also carry three old krabs from your old rack. One to put your shoes on. another keep your prussiks on and third to keep your nutkey.
That way if and when you have bail of a route you don't have to leave any of you shinny new toys. However if you really want to push the lightweight boat out use camp nanos or metoluis minis.
In short the following would be a really good rack for trad climbing
2 50m dry treated ropes (Mammut Genesis, Beal Cobra II, DMM Prophet)
Petzl Meteor 3 Helmet
Arc’teryx R300 Harness
Petzl Verso Belay Plate and DMM Oval s/g
Or
BD ATC Guide and DMM Boa s/g
2 DMM Phantom s/g for building belays
Nut key plus old krab
Old spare krab for you trainers
Old spare krab with two prussiks
Quickdraws (either DMM Phantoms or if you find them too fiddly WC Heliums or DMM Spectre 2s)
8 15cm quickdraws
6 sling draws made up from 60cm 8mm slings
3 120cm 8mm plus 3 wire gates
Micro Cams
Green and Yellow Alien or Purple, Blue and Yellow Matercam.
Standard Cams
Set of DMM Demon Cams (0.5 – 4) or BD Camalots (0.3 – 4 including 2 size 2s)
Each racked on their own colour coded DMM Phantom or DMM Spectre2
Wires
1-10 of Rocks or Wallnuts and 1-8 of Rocks or Wallnuts.
Micro wires
Full set of DMM Brass Offsets plus IMPs size 2 and 3.
Racked on 3 or 4 DMM Shadows/Spectre2/BD Ovals depending on preference.
I think I might have gone a little bit over the top here, but I hope you find that helpful!
Tom (who definitely shouldn’t be writing his assignment right now!)
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Did you not read the OPs profile?
He climbs E5 not VS!
Your advice is very good for moving quickly in an alpine (or alpine style) situation.
Did you not read the OPs profile?
He climbs E5 not VS!
Your advice is very good for moving quickly in an alpine (or alpine style) situation.
In reply to Mark Kemball: My lightweight rack would be (based on what my light rack normally is)
5 WC helium slingdraws 60cm (best done with skinny 6mm dyneema sling), 2 of which have a DMM revolver on the end
Superlight rocks 1-3
DMM offsets 7-11
DMM RPs 2-4
Camp Ballnuts 1 and 2
Green alien (= around friend 0)
Dragons 0-4
WC zeros 4 and 6
One 120 sling with a DMM shadow locker
2 loose WC helium krabs
DMM oval krab with one prussic and a tibloc
BD ATC guide with a big hms krab
Petzl Hirundos harness
All cams racked on individual wire gates, rps and ball nuts on one krab and the rest of the nuts on another. If I knew the climbing would require a bigger cam I'd bring the 5 or 6 dragon, if it there was a long pitch I'd double up with a grey alien and a size 2 dragon and a micro cam or two more. With short pitches I'd bring my chopped down 33m Beal Joker, otherwise either the single or halves depending on the climbing I had in mind and whether any abseiling would be required.
I like cams, they are more versatile than nuts but obviously heavier but my cams are generally extendable saving a bit of weight and clutter with quickdraws and you usually have a krab or two spare at the end of the pitch to build belays with even if you don't actually use said cam. I also find far more use out of a set of offsets than an entire set of wallnuts, the superlight rocks are wonderful and the three smallest sizes complement the offsets perfectly. The ball nuts though exotic are fantastic pieces of small gear, the two smallest are tiny but still stronger than micro nuts. If I had, I would just bring a single 70m Joker or other skinny single that could be used as a half. If you need halves you can tie in to both end, after all how many have 30m+ pitches? Slightly more risk of confusion but light. I'm not much for tiny krabs as I find them fiddly and are less useful winter climbing. They are nice though if you only summer climb and don't have my big hands.
5 WC helium slingdraws 60cm (best done with skinny 6mm dyneema sling), 2 of which have a DMM revolver on the end
Superlight rocks 1-3
DMM offsets 7-11
DMM RPs 2-4
Camp Ballnuts 1 and 2
Green alien (= around friend 0)
Dragons 0-4
WC zeros 4 and 6
One 120 sling with a DMM shadow locker
2 loose WC helium krabs
DMM oval krab with one prussic and a tibloc
BD ATC guide with a big hms krab
Petzl Hirundos harness
All cams racked on individual wire gates, rps and ball nuts on one krab and the rest of the nuts on another. If I knew the climbing would require a bigger cam I'd bring the 5 or 6 dragon, if it there was a long pitch I'd double up with a grey alien and a size 2 dragon and a micro cam or two more. With short pitches I'd bring my chopped down 33m Beal Joker, otherwise either the single or halves depending on the climbing I had in mind and whether any abseiling would be required.
I like cams, they are more versatile than nuts but obviously heavier but my cams are generally extendable saving a bit of weight and clutter with quickdraws and you usually have a krab or two spare at the end of the pitch to build belays with even if you don't actually use said cam. I also find far more use out of a set of offsets than an entire set of wallnuts, the superlight rocks are wonderful and the three smallest sizes complement the offsets perfectly. The ball nuts though exotic are fantastic pieces of small gear, the two smallest are tiny but still stronger than micro nuts. If I had, I would just bring a single 70m Joker or other skinny single that could be used as a half. If you need halves you can tie in to both end, after all how many have 30m+ pitches? Slightly more risk of confusion but light. I'm not much for tiny krabs as I find them fiddly and are less useful winter climbing. They are nice though if you only summer climb and don't have my big hands.
In reply to Jon Wickham: Suggesting you take five screwgates per person is just utter nonsense and I'm afraid you are just plain wrongheaded on this and not thinking rationally.
There is only conceivable reason to use a screwgate over a normal krab:
- the connection is a single point of failure.
In any sensibly constructed belay, there will be at most one single point of failure meaning that one screwgate is easily sufficient. In the most convoluted scenarios that doesn't change. Even when connecting ropes back to yourself (i.e. clove hitch to krab in your belay loop) you will only need one screwgate to eliminate any single point of failure. Also in that scenario, use of krabs is optional in the first place.
Using a normal belay plate, two additional screwgates provides loads of scope. Even using a guide plate, it is still sufficient as you need one krab to anchor yourself to the central point belay and then your belay krab and the 2nd second screwgate for your autolocking belay.
The same applies with multi-pitch abseiling. Your normal krab for your belay device, plus one screwgate to secure yourself and the other for your prussik loop.
There is only conceivable reason to use a screwgate over a normal krab:
- the connection is a single point of failure.
In any sensibly constructed belay, there will be at most one single point of failure meaning that one screwgate is easily sufficient. In the most convoluted scenarios that doesn't change. Even when connecting ropes back to yourself (i.e. clove hitch to krab in your belay loop) you will only need one screwgate to eliminate any single point of failure. Also in that scenario, use of krabs is optional in the first place.
Using a normal belay plate, two additional screwgates provides loads of scope. Even using a guide plate, it is still sufficient as you need one krab to anchor yourself to the central point belay and then your belay krab and the 2nd second screwgate for your autolocking belay.
The same applies with multi-pitch abseiling. Your normal krab for your belay device, plus one screwgate to secure yourself and the other for your prussik loop.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Hear hear.
The main reason I carry 2 extra screwgates rather then one is so when multipitch abseiling I have on to anchor myself to the crag with and one to use on my prussik.
If I wasn't planning on abseiling or only a very short way I'd only take one extra s/g.
> (In reply to Jon Wickham) Suggesting you take five screwgates per person is just utter nonsense
Hear hear.
The main reason I carry 2 extra screwgates rather then one is so when multipitch abseiling I have on to anchor myself to the crag with and one to use on my prussik.
If I wasn't planning on abseiling or only a very short way I'd only take one extra s/g.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I did read the profile but don't think you quite get where I'm coming from.
An E5 leader should be able to rise above the consensus and be bolder and more imaginative about deciding how to climb both in the UK as well as the Alps. A rack should be based on the MINIMUM that is needed for the route, not the lazy approach of being the MAXIMUM you are happy to carry. Also, with a depth of experience, a full range of both modern equipment and old-school techniques can be brought to bear.
In particular I'd hope Mark would be up to looking at climbing classic multi-pitch E2/E3 with what is by modern standards a fairly minimal rack. Basically, a rack of comparable size to that the route was put up with, not the size of racks that are now common because we are all much richer and gear is much lighter.
Just because we all have full sets of cams, double sets of wires, micros etc. that is no reason to carry them. That said, leaving gear behind is psychologically hard and requires a real effort even if you're an experienced climber.
A competent leader should not be overly concerned with the risks of switching back to climbing on a single rope even on big and fairly hard routes just because the current UK fashion is that double ropes are the only game in town.
In fact, in some ways you could argue that with UK cragging you might be even bolder in terms of rope length than on the same technical grade of route in the Alps. Our more remote routes are generally fairly escapable and generally have much shorter pitches.
Hope that explains my reasoning a bit more.
PS I thought the bulk of your advice very good. Your point about loose screwgates on belay krabs is well made and I've now gone to using a Locksafe Sentinel due to that concern. I'm happy with it and I've not found any problems with it inverting, as you mentioned, but I will certainly look out for it.
An E5 leader should be able to rise above the consensus and be bolder and more imaginative about deciding how to climb both in the UK as well as the Alps. A rack should be based on the MINIMUM that is needed for the route, not the lazy approach of being the MAXIMUM you are happy to carry. Also, with a depth of experience, a full range of both modern equipment and old-school techniques can be brought to bear.
In particular I'd hope Mark would be up to looking at climbing classic multi-pitch E2/E3 with what is by modern standards a fairly minimal rack. Basically, a rack of comparable size to that the route was put up with, not the size of racks that are now common because we are all much richer and gear is much lighter.
Just because we all have full sets of cams, double sets of wires, micros etc. that is no reason to carry them. That said, leaving gear behind is psychologically hard and requires a real effort even if you're an experienced climber.
A competent leader should not be overly concerned with the risks of switching back to climbing on a single rope even on big and fairly hard routes just because the current UK fashion is that double ropes are the only game in town.
In fact, in some ways you could argue that with UK cragging you might be even bolder in terms of rope length than on the same technical grade of route in the Alps. Our more remote routes are generally fairly escapable and generally have much shorter pitches.
Hope that explains my reasoning a bit more.
PS I thought the bulk of your advice very good. Your point about loose screwgates on belay krabs is well made and I've now gone to using a Locksafe Sentinel due to that concern. I'm happy with it and I've not found any problems with it inverting, as you mentioned, but I will certainly look out for it.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: PPS Thought you made another VG point about harnesses. The newest harness do give a very good reduction in both weight and bulk.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Get a gear shop you two... you're making me feel like my gear is crap and that I need a new rack that I don't need nor can afford!
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
Get a gear shop you two... you're making me feel like my gear is crap and that I need a new rack that I don't need nor can afford!
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I used to use the Sentienl as a belay krab, but found when belaying with double rope the krab jammed up really easily when it flipped upside down. I remeber getting an ear full from a partner when I couldn't pay out slack because it jammed up.
I know I carry and place too much gear, but I'm not as good as the climbers of yesteryear.
For example next time I go to Gogarth I might get on the Strand.
The Strand is top of my grade and there is reasonable chance I'll fall off it.
I'll probablly carry pretty similar rack to the one listed above and use double ropes. I'll be sure to place lots of runners!
I suppose if I dropped down to a grade I'm comfy at. Say Dream... or Scavanger then I could strip my rack down and climb it on a single rope.
I supose the following would be suitible:
6 quickdraws
3 extendable draws
2 slings
5 or so cams
A gold hex
1-10 of wires plus doubles of 3 5 7 and 8 would do me fine.
Then a 50m rope
a belay plate and an 1 extra s/g krab
So, according to your profile, your limit is E5... pressumably you can cruise E3? What would you take for a fast and light ascent of Lubyanka or West Buttress Eliminate?
Most climbers I know would take 14 draws, a set of cams from 00 to 3 or 3.5. double set of wires and a set of micros. They'd also climb on double ropes. Otherwise what happens if it starts to rain, you fall off and want to go home or it gets dark?
Tom
I used to use the Sentienl as a belay krab, but found when belaying with double rope the krab jammed up really easily when it flipped upside down. I remeber getting an ear full from a partner when I couldn't pay out slack because it jammed up.
I know I carry and place too much gear, but I'm not as good as the climbers of yesteryear.
For example next time I go to Gogarth I might get on the Strand.
The Strand is top of my grade and there is reasonable chance I'll fall off it.
I'll probablly carry pretty similar rack to the one listed above and use double ropes. I'll be sure to place lots of runners!
I suppose if I dropped down to a grade I'm comfy at. Say Dream... or Scavanger then I could strip my rack down and climb it on a single rope.
I supose the following would be suitible:
6 quickdraws
3 extendable draws
2 slings
5 or so cams
A gold hex
1-10 of wires plus doubles of 3 5 7 and 8 would do me fine.
Then a 50m rope
a belay plate and an 1 extra s/g krab
So, according to your profile, your limit is E5... pressumably you can cruise E3? What would you take for a fast and light ascent of Lubyanka or West Buttress Eliminate?
Most climbers I know would take 14 draws, a set of cams from 00 to 3 or 3.5. double set of wires and a set of micros. They'd also climb on double ropes. Otherwise what happens if it starts to rain, you fall off and want to go home or it gets dark?
Tom
In reply to Mark Kemball: Thanks once again to everyone for the excellent advice, lots to think about! Ex-engineer - your thoughts on going super-lightweight are something I'll keep in mind when climbing easier routes. Tom thanks for your thoughts too, but just to clarify, although I have climbed E5, I've never been an E5 climber - ie I never became established or led consistently at that grade, and although it remains an aspiration, at the moment I lead E1 - E2. My idea is that I want a full rack so that when I make a long walk in to camp at the base of some remote Scottish crag, I'm not limited in what I can attempt. 50m skinny ropes seem to be the best idea - I use 50m ropes at the moment and have not found them limiting. I'm not to worried about the wear issue - the intention is to continue to use my old rack and ropes for local cragging and seacliffs and keep the lightweight stuff for the haul up hill in the mountains. I don't like the idea of hard trad climbing on a single rope, apart from the issue of rope drag, I like the get out of jail free card in the event of a forced retreat.
Thanks again,
Mark.
Thanks again,
Mark.
In reply to Mark Kemball: For lightweight cams have a look at Totem cams, they are very light and super flexible.
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
They also have a very narrow head width.
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
They also have a very narrow head width.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: A good and very interesting question re Lubyanka and WBE.
I would not go nearly as far as to say I'd cruise E3 but I was fairly relaxed about E1s and some E2s. As an example, I remember climbing Pretzl Logic (E2 with 3 short pitches) at Tremadog on a short single rope because it was far less hassle than using 100m of double ropes. Equally, I could see myself heading off to climb the Overhanging Arete on Cyrn Las with a single 50m and pretty much the lightweight rack you have described above. That would be on the basis of knowing the cliff (and the approach pitches) having climbed The Grooves previously and having an escape route up The Grooves if needed.
Lubyanka is an excellent example of where general perception and facts may not line up. The longest pitch is only 21 metres, probably far shorter than you (or others) possibly thought. Is anyone seriously going to place 14 wires on a pitch that long, in addition to small/medium cams? With four relatively short pitches I would hope I'd take that into account and drop the number of quickdraws down accordingly. Having done it, I know that you would be fine with 8 quickdraws and certainly more than 10 would be overkill.
WBE is a completely different story with some of the longest pitches anywhere. Walsh's Groove is 45metres. As such, I'd agree 100% that 14 draws and the rest of your suggested rack is fair enough for an onsight attempt.
I hope that illustrates my point about tailoring the rack to the route, especially on the routes where the pitches are short.
However at the other extreme, the standard rack for E1-E3 leaders at Fairhead could be 14 draws, a triple set of medium to large wires and a range of medium hexes in addition to a full set of cams. That said, there is a trend there by local climbers to repeat classic multi-pitch E1/E2 routes in a single pitch. The preferred method is to do it on a 60/70m sport rope rather than on doubles. There are plenty of different options and single ropes (of all lengths) still have their place in trad climbing.
I would not go nearly as far as to say I'd cruise E3 but I was fairly relaxed about E1s and some E2s. As an example, I remember climbing Pretzl Logic (E2 with 3 short pitches) at Tremadog on a short single rope because it was far less hassle than using 100m of double ropes. Equally, I could see myself heading off to climb the Overhanging Arete on Cyrn Las with a single 50m and pretty much the lightweight rack you have described above. That would be on the basis of knowing the cliff (and the approach pitches) having climbed The Grooves previously and having an escape route up The Grooves if needed.
Lubyanka is an excellent example of where general perception and facts may not line up. The longest pitch is only 21 metres, probably far shorter than you (or others) possibly thought. Is anyone seriously going to place 14 wires on a pitch that long, in addition to small/medium cams? With four relatively short pitches I would hope I'd take that into account and drop the number of quickdraws down accordingly. Having done it, I know that you would be fine with 8 quickdraws and certainly more than 10 would be overkill.
WBE is a completely different story with some of the longest pitches anywhere. Walsh's Groove is 45metres. As such, I'd agree 100% that 14 draws and the rest of your suggested rack is fair enough for an onsight attempt.
I hope that illustrates my point about tailoring the rack to the route, especially on the routes where the pitches are short.
However at the other extreme, the standard rack for E1-E3 leaders at Fairhead could be 14 draws, a triple set of medium to large wires and a range of medium hexes in addition to a full set of cams. That said, there is a trend there by local climbers to repeat classic multi-pitch E1/E2 routes in a single pitch. The preferred method is to do it on a 60/70m sport rope rather than on doubles. There are plenty of different options and single ropes (of all lengths) still have their place in trad climbing.
In reply to Mark Kemball: I completely understand that as soon as climbing gets hard, double ropes make things far more reassuring.
You certainly wouldn't find me attempting something like Cougar on Creag an Dubh Loch on a single but having done silly things like having to retreat from 600m up the Tournier Spur on the Doites when climbing on a single 60m Iceline, I can't really get as concerned as I used to, about climbing on UK cliffs on a single rope.
Additionally, I've a few books like Steve Ashton's Rock Climbing Techniques from the mid 80's which I keep referring back to, in order have a perspective on what was considered a full rack 30 years ago. For example, the recommendation was that a comprehensive rack would have four stitched extensions. Also, 50m ropes (rather than 45m) are only recommend for overseas use.
Sometimes it is only be taking a step back that we can see that what we might now consider normal in terms of our climbing might actually be more a result of the commercial imperative of companies to sell use more and more equipment rather than as a result of us actually needing it to climb the routes we want to.
You certainly wouldn't find me attempting something like Cougar on Creag an Dubh Loch on a single but having done silly things like having to retreat from 600m up the Tournier Spur on the Doites when climbing on a single 60m Iceline, I can't really get as concerned as I used to, about climbing on UK cliffs on a single rope.
Additionally, I've a few books like Steve Ashton's Rock Climbing Techniques from the mid 80's which I keep referring back to, in order have a perspective on what was considered a full rack 30 years ago. For example, the recommendation was that a comprehensive rack would have four stitched extensions. Also, 50m ropes (rather than 45m) are only recommend for overseas use.
Sometimes it is only be taking a step back that we can see that what we might now consider normal in terms of our climbing might actually be more a result of the commercial imperative of companies to sell use more and more equipment rather than as a result of us actually needing it to climb the routes we want to.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
The lightest kit is that kit that you leave in the car.
Think about what you really need - do you need to take a double set of cams for instance? We used to go up to Scafell with something like:
Ten quickdraws
Double set of Rocks 1 - 9
Friends 0.5, 1.5, 2.5
Slings
Split that between you and your mate and it doesn't weigh a lot.
That rack was suitable for most routes up to E5
ALC
The lightest kit is that kit that you leave in the car.
Think about what you really need - do you need to take a double set of cams for instance? We used to go up to Scafell with something like:
Ten quickdraws
Double set of Rocks 1 - 9
Friends 0.5, 1.5, 2.5
Slings
Split that between you and your mate and it doesn't weigh a lot.
That rack was suitable for most routes up to E5
ALC
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
An interesting viewpoint, however, my view is that the improvement in equipment gives me a fighting chance of being able to get up some of the routes I used to be able to climb in the 70s and 80s. (This is particularly the case for improvments in footwear, but that's probably worth a whloe new thread!)
>
> Sometimes it is only be taking a step back that we can see that what we might now consider normal in terms of our climbing might actually be more a result of the commercial imperative of companies to sell use more and more equipment rather than as a result of us actually needing it to climb the routes we want to.
> Sometimes it is only be taking a step back that we can see that what we might now consider normal in terms of our climbing might actually be more a result of the commercial imperative of companies to sell use more and more equipment rather than as a result of us actually needing it to climb the routes we want to.
An interesting viewpoint, however, my view is that the improvement in equipment gives me a fighting chance of being able to get up some of the routes I used to be able to climb in the 70s and 80s. (This is particularly the case for improvments in footwear, but that's probably worth a whloe new thread!)
In reply to Mark Kemball: I understand exactly where you are coming from, although perhaps the biggest aid to those of us who have been climbing 15+ or even 30+ years is the ability to train indoors and on sport. Despite that and all the new shoes and gear, I think we are perhaps held back more now psychologically than we might have been previously.
After 17 years of considering E5 as nails, I now cannot shake that conviction, despite the fact I now happily consider 7b+/7c as potential sport projects.
I have this nagging suspicion that on harder routes by having large racks are we actually conditioning ourselves to climb less confidently, less boldly and getting tired out by carrying and placing more gear to the extent our performance decreases rather than increase.
I routinely see people carry stupidly too much gear on everything from Tower Ridge to 10m VS grit routes to Alpine rock routes directly contributing to them either climbing it poorly or not at all. If that applies to routes in the lower grades I think it would be conceited of us more experienced climbers not consider whether we are guilty of similar mistakes.
PS I do agree about the shoes. I ended up climbing Coronation Street a couple of years ago in a pair of EBs and it was not an enjoyable experience.
After 17 years of considering E5 as nails, I now cannot shake that conviction, despite the fact I now happily consider 7b+/7c as potential sport projects.
I have this nagging suspicion that on harder routes by having large racks are we actually conditioning ourselves to climb less confidently, less boldly and getting tired out by carrying and placing more gear to the extent our performance decreases rather than increase.
I routinely see people carry stupidly too much gear on everything from Tower Ridge to 10m VS grit routes to Alpine rock routes directly contributing to them either climbing it poorly or not at all. If that applies to routes in the lower grades I think it would be conceited of us more experienced climbers not consider whether we are guilty of similar mistakes.
PS I do agree about the shoes. I ended up climbing Coronation Street a couple of years ago in a pair of EBs and it was not an enjoyable experience.
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: I totally agree about training on indoor walls. With a family, you simply do not have the time to climb every weekend, but using a wall, when you are able to get out, you can expect to climb at close to your highest standard.
Style of climbing has changed significantly since the 70s / early 80s. Back then, most climbers considered yo-yoing a route as a perfectly legitimate lead (a significant number of my harder routes were led in that style) now that would be considered frigging.
E5 IS nails (I think), but it is a head game. The point is that, even back in the 80s, there were plenty of E5s that you could safely fall off, with modern gear, there's probably more and they're probably safer. If you want to climb that grade, you just need to pick a safe one and not worry about taking a few falls.
Style of climbing has changed significantly since the 70s / early 80s. Back then, most climbers considered yo-yoing a route as a perfectly legitimate lead (a significant number of my harder routes were led in that style) now that would be considered frigging.
E5 IS nails (I think), but it is a head game. The point is that, even back in the 80s, there were plenty of E5s that you could safely fall off, with modern gear, there's probably more and they're probably safer. If you want to climb that grade, you just need to pick a safe one and not worry about taking a few falls.
In reply to Mark Kemball: For the walk in I think the rucksack may be more important than the gear and as I have got older it is the walk that seems to have the biggest affect on me. I recently purchased a Dueter Guide45 which,in comparison to many packs, is quite heavy but it is such a comfy carry that the load feels better than my very lightweight sack.
Some of the lightest krabs can be difficult to handle so I think that what I am saying is that the lightest of everything is not necessarily the best.
Al
Some of the lightest krabs can be difficult to handle so I think that what I am saying is that the lightest of everything is not necessarily the best.
Al
In reply to Mark Kemball: My opinion tends to be for long pitches with a light rack I go ice climbing. When rock climbing, I generally put up with the weight of lots of gear in order to bolster my pitiful confidence and bravery levels. I can't remember a time where I've thought, I wish I was carrying less. But modern gear is a lot lighter so I'm probably not carrying much more weight than when I started out, but can protect well even long an complex pitches.
I don't like clipping the smallest krabs so much, but if you buy half a set of bigger light quickdraws (eg. BD hotwires, DMM spectres etc) and half a set of small ones, (BD Oz, DMM phantoms) then use the little 'uns on the gear end and the big ones of the clipping ends, you save some weight but get easy clipping.
If looking for specifically light gear, these http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=607 are light and rack very nicely. They do have a few disadvantages though.
I don't like clipping the smallest krabs so much, but if you buy half a set of bigger light quickdraws (eg. BD hotwires, DMM spectres etc) and half a set of small ones, (BD Oz, DMM phantoms) then use the little 'uns on the gear end and the big ones of the clipping ends, you save some weight but get easy clipping.
If looking for specifically light gear, these http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=607 are light and rack very nicely. They do have a few disadvantages though.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
The biggest weight savings I made a few years ago was to take less gear on routes I'm confident in and where I now know there's some fixed equipment. I've replaced all my krabs and slings with ultra light ones. I also use 8.1 mm ice lines for almost everything.
The krabs and ice lines alone made a huge huge huge difference to weight and bulk!!!!!!
I can now use an ultra light 26-35 litre sack for long mountain and alpine approaches.
Thirty odd years ago when I was younger and fitter I'd used a 60--70 litre sack with bivvy kit for the very same mountain and alpine routes!!!
Cheers Ron
The biggest weight savings I made a few years ago was to take less gear on routes I'm confident in and where I now know there's some fixed equipment. I've replaced all my krabs and slings with ultra light ones. I also use 8.1 mm ice lines for almost everything.
The krabs and ice lines alone made a huge huge huge difference to weight and bulk!!!!!!
I can now use an ultra light 26-35 litre sack for long mountain and alpine approaches.
Thirty odd years ago when I was younger and fitter I'd used a 60--70 litre sack with bivvy kit for the very same mountain and alpine routes!!!
Cheers Ron
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