UKC

I have visited Snow N Rock in Covent Garden and Kensington High St on three occasions to be told yes we can fit your bindings on your mini skis. So I booked them in for today, yes you have guessed I go tomorrow and yes they now have decided that they can't because I want them adjusted to a climbing boot which they had seen several times but they now claim is unsuitable.
The bindings are specially recommended for the boots!
I may never buy from them again. Please join me in my rant,
I am bloody livid with them.

In reply to Chris:

Suggest you email them, with a link to this post.

In reply to Chris: I just have thanks.

In reply to Chris:

I have bought several things from Snow and Rock by Chancery Lane tube station, most recently a pair of Scarpa Trek Mk2 boots. I've always found them extremely helpful. I daresay they don't get as busy as the Covent Garden store.

In reply to Chris: yeah, ive heard about problems with snow and rock before, did you buy the boots for that application on their recommendation??
If so and they are now saying they are unsuitible for that purpose, then they should give you a refund!!!
If they will not, then go and get advice from your local trading standards/citizens advice bereau, find out where you stand legally - then if your in the right, go back to them and tell them what you intend to do.
You could poss take them to small claims court, but i would recommend, informing them that you are going to make it your business to inform future potential customers about their poor service- oh the joys of the internet!!!
I have found, in the past, that just this threat is enough to make them see sense, but
1.make sure your carfull about what you say (slander/liable, etc)
2.make sure you know your rights/know your right, before making aany threats about disclosures

In reply to daveA: I had the boots already.
They said they would now I have no time to go elsewhere they claim they can't in case they get sued. This is probably true but why oh why did they not tell me this the first time when I could have done something about it.

i have been in there quite a lot, and most times they have been excellent. on only one occasion were they not.

email full details to their customer service and the MD, both of whose email addresses can be found on their website. i did this on that one occasion, and the MD dealt with it swiftly and impressively.

In reply to helix:

Snow & Rock is general run by and for SOTs. For climbing gear go see Ken in the climbing section of the one in Covent Garden but don't take any shit from him and say Richard Lee told you to shout at him if he gives you any trouble. He'll appreciate that.

I have been in the one in Holborn twice when they didn't have a clue. Once a guy was trying to buy an axe for walking and maybe a little bit of technical but was being shown a 'ghost' or full on tech axe instead and neither knew anything about the shaft length suitability. On another occasion a novice was being sold a single 1/2 rope.

I interjected both times but I think I made some enemies there for it. Oh well.

In reply to helix:


Yep, second on that. If you've got a good case and make it clearly via email the MD wastes no time in sorting it out (well, he did for me).

In reply to S Bags:

Rich – why s bags – sandbagger?

Personally, I haven’t had bad service from Outside, Hathersage. One guy treats you like he’s talking to a novice but generally I actually think they are alright.

In reply to Chris: I know what you mean about the London stores, but I was in the B'ham one yesterday, and Claire (I think that's her name) what a babe!

Hi everyone, just seen this post while whating sex in the city and seeing as I work for S+R, and have worked for Outside (plus hitch & Hike, Cotswolds and survival aids!!!) I feel I have to respond. The problems highlighted are not restricted to outdoor retail but retail in general, i.e. poor knowledge, poor service and an often short sighted sales policy. I won't try and put up forcefull defence of any of these shops (or just about any outdoor shop) becouse they all have problems with staff. The turn around of staff in most shops is very rapid - due primerly to low wages and restrictive managent policys (i.e 'we want to employ climbers but we don't want them to have any holidays or time off').
This means that staff dispear long before they get up to speed in ALL areas - meaning that the guy who gives bad advice on winter gear may infact be an E8 leader (with the experienced winter climber giving bad advice on what rock boots to buy for a trip to Font).
So what's the answer? Well the trick is to know the strengths of the staff in the shops you go into, and if you don't then don't just take thier word for it (do some research like read a gear review or ask for opions on sites like this).
Another problem is that they most motivated, keen and experienced staff don't hang around on shit pay and restrictive rotas, and so they move on or move up into other jobs in the outdoor trade, with the best retailers supplying the majrity of reps. And so a shop is only as good as its staff, and becouse staff come and go so will the quality of the shop.
As for Outside and Snow and Rock I think in the modern world of bland retailers all singing from the same hyme sheet I think they are both trying hard, and I suppose that's the problem, we're used to great climbing shops and won't put up with 'Dixons' style shops. I suppose if we want proffesonal staff and not 'counter monkeys' then we may have to pay more for the service.

Now back to the tv

In reply to Chris:
If it smells wong, dont shop there.
Good shops always smell of the products they sell, nip into Eddison Lightweight cycles in Clowne for instance....hmmmmm, lithium grease...

In reply to Dr.Strangeglove: I went into the shop and retrieved my skis without anyone even noticing, then went back for the bindings and got the same raft of excuses. Base Camp Ilkley and Braemar Mountain Sports may bail me out.I will see in the morning.

AK seems about right. Always best to know what you need. Let's not foget dear old YHA Adventure Shops (Southampton)though.

Assistant: Can I help?

Me: I'd like a sleeping bag. Can you tell me how much the synthetic bags have come on in the last ten years? My down bag has been ace but it's worn out now.

Assistant: Oh. Er.....

Manager: I can help you.

Me: Good. I want a light bag for general mountain use. Up to 4 seasons. Would buy down but want to be able to use it in the rain.

Manager: Yes, it would get wet in the rain.

Me: And...?

Manager: Well, it can't be very nice sleeping in a wet sleeping bag, can it, I suppose.

Me: Great, thanks for your help.

In reply to Chris:

I've had mixed experiences at S+R. Sometimes they can be clueless (shop assistant: hammocks are great for the UK because it's Big Tree Country. me:?!?) but my more recent experiences with them have actually been pretty good. I've bought the excellent Cloudveil Serendipidy gloves on a recommendation there and had almost an hour of bootfitting for a pair of plastics for a fiver

In reply to Chris: Last time I went onto S&R the sales 'assistant' took 10 minutes scanning my purchases through then discovered an error that took a further 15 minutes and 2 other staff (i think they were both supervisors) to rectify. My purchases that day? a few krabs and a set of nuts.

In reply to Chris:

Sorry folks, but I've only got great things to say about Snow and Rock. The Bristol store is excellent, and the staff very knowledgable.

Can't rate them highly enough!

In reply to Chris:

My experience has been mixed with S&R in London & Chertsey. Sometimes excellent help, sometimes not. I find the tack is to ask the assistant if they have personal experience of the matter at hand, and if they make a recommendation ask why, and why not the alternative. A diificult question that needs a proper answer seems to help sort out the wheat from the chaff, but as always if you know little yourself you will find it difficult to recognise good advice from bad.

Worst advice recently? Replace stove instead of tracking down a replacement safety valve. 'Here's a nice one, sir, only £80'. Five minutes more careful examiniation of the problem and a tweak with a penknife saw stove restored to full working order, and good for another twenty years probably.

In reply to BenP @ Work:
Snow N Rock still have not answered the email I sent to customer services, I think that sums up their response.
Base Camp ,Ilkley got various screws to me by 9am this morning and has lent me the specialist drills to do the job myself though clearly I am taking a risk doing this.
Braemar Mountain Sports have got a free set of screws to me by 9am as well.
Andy in Ilkley has even offered to talk me through the task by phone.
Excellent service much appreciated.

Well if they had a scottiash shop I may be able to rant about S+R but I order all my stuff through the mail mostly, even tho Tiso is 25 mins drive to Glasgow away.

Service wise for me is does it get to me on time and so far it has and thay have been a good place to spend my money,but until I get to a S+R shop I cannot comment on sales folk directly, even tho when I phone its usually a sharon or Tracey that I am speaking to I usually am cert on what I am buying and so far I ain;t had to confuse them and get put on hold, long may it continue

Dave

In reply to jam:

I assume you don't mean the boots cost a fiver, so presumably they charged you for an hour's bootfitting? Can that really be true? The last pair of ski touring boots I bought from Braemar Mountain Sports, they spent 2 and a half hours getting the right fit and of course no charge.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: Agree excellent for boot fitting

In reply to Chris:
I much prefer to give my business to the smaller dedicated places like rock&run/needle sports than a big chain like snow & rock- they're cheaper anyway (for climbing hardware mind- don't know about boots)

In reply to Lizard:

When I had the fun of dealing with Slush and rubbles incompetance a while back, their excuse was that they were only a small company, and I had to make allowences for that!

I've shopped with them twice now (through mail order) and both times, they deliberatly lied to me regarding the items, and delivery information.

It'll be a cold day in hell before they see another penny from me!

Vote with your wallets people. If you get bad service, dont just accept it, go somewhere else!

In reply to Lizard: Here here.

I always thought that S+R went away on the odd staff holiday to test out gear, so they should know there stuff. I really hate the way they pounce on you like commissoned harpies the moment you step in the door.

The shop at Mile End (and also Outside in llanberis)have offered me the best advice of any outdoor shops. Big thumbs up. Field and Trek are a close second (round the corner from Ellis B in Covent Garden). Talk to the well travelled staff and find out where they've been and what they've used. They really know there stuff.

In reply to Andy Kirkpatrick:

From now on, whenever I go into S & R, my opening line will be "I'd like to have a word with Andy Kirkpatrick please"....

In reply to DaveH: Still no reply from Snow N Rock

In reply to Chris:
I'm no fan of snow and rock, or any outdoor retailer to be honest, but your complaint in this case is rather unfair.

No ski shop will officially fit bindings for use with climbing boots as bindings are designed to release only with ski boots. Obviously they would be opening themselves to a lawsuit if they were to go against specific instructions from the binding company (and potentially loose the right to stock that particular brand of binding). Ski shops can (and do) get sued regularly over poorly adjusted bindings.

Mind you, if you explained clearly that you wanted them to fit the binding specifically for a climbing boot on your three previous trips tot he store and they agreed, then you have a case to complain.

In reply to Andy:

Braemar Mtn Sports will, Wilderness Ways (now Nevisport) used to, I'm sure they're not alone.

In reply to DaveH:

Be careful Dave, be very careful. I remember going into Outside in Hathersage and getting served by (changing the names to protect the guilty) a certain Ms. Bairlee Banderson and a certain Mr. Handy Dirkhattrick.

Conversation went some thing like:

Me: "Hello, I need some light tape for using as abseil tat."
Ms. Banderson: "OK me ole' china, this stuff is what you want I think."
Me (looking at the alarmingly thin tape offered): "errr... you're the expert I guess. How strong is it?"
Ms. Banderson: "HANDY!!!! Oi! HANDY!!!"
Mr. Dirkhattrick (looking slightly scared): "Yes?"
Ms Banderson: "This geezer wants to know how strong this abseil tat is."
Mr. Dirkhattrick (looking me up and down): "Well... you're not that fat, I'm sure its strong enough..."

I bought 10 metres and fled.

In reply to Andy:
so why are some bindings (eg certain Silvrettas) advertised as being usable with (some) climbing boots ? and they work pretty well as long as you don't expect a lot of downhill performance out of the boot

In reply to Doug:
Maybe I'm wrong about the UK, but in Canada and the US the situation is that it has nothing to do with whether a set up works or not, or even that Silvrettas are regularly advertised as being suitable to work with boots - in fact its amazing what you can get to work with old 404s.
But any binding with a DIN accredited release mechanism shouldn't be fitted to boots they're not designed for by someone who is 'qualified' to set DIN rated bindings at an establishment qualified to do so.
For example, fitting a touring boot to a non-touring binding is also officially not on as the friction between the 'vibram' boot sole and binding will be too great to prevent proper release (in about 0.1% of cases...) even though Denalis or similar are going to ski fine.
The obvious ways around this are to make sure you take a proper ski boot when having the binding fitted, and then adjust it yourself to your climbing boot. Or bribe your local ski tech with beer, or have a ski tech as your g/f and ask her nicely (I can vouch for the latter one)

In reply to Doug:

WTF are you supposed to use for skiing to the bottom of a route in the alps, a pair of mountain boots or ski boots then abandon them and change into mountain boots?

This needs sorting, if a shop does not know they are no use to anyone in that department.

BRING BACK LEATHER STRAPS ON WOODEN PLANKS FOR YOUR GIMMER BOOTS OR EGGERS

In reply to Andy
Andy's right, and anyone who's seen x-rays of Andy Perkins leg complete with spiral fracture cased by vibram soled boots on ski bindings, will treat the whole climbing boot ski binding thing with a great deal of causion! I used 404's with vegas (Alphas don't work so well), but I snow plow everywere (in fact I've had my skins gaffered taped on for years!). I know a lot of climbers who ski to the route in ski boots then swap into their climbing boots (it's a compromise either way), which isn't a problem unless you're planning on going over the top (you can always come back for them like people do on the Jorasses).
AS for the shop thing I'd heard that in the US people have to sign a discalmer in most ski stores when buying boots and skis, and I can understand if the staff in the store in question arn't 100% sure then they'll just stear clear of the whole deal. This isn't to say they're not good mountain skiers (I met a member of staff in that store who'd ski'ed the Courtes and N face of the Vert!), but skiers who havn't needed to go into this grey area of ski/climbing boots/bindings.
Although this isn't a plug for S+R you can ask me questions on their web site, wich is S+R's attempt to bridge this knowledge gap sometimes found in some stores.

And Toby, the answer should have been 5KN, although that'll be reduced by 20% by the knot...

Cheers

Andy


Andy

In reply to Chris: Andy K has clearly put his finger on the issue with shop staff - and I have had my problems with S & R staff who actually managed to prevent me from buying a new pair of rock boots when I had hard cash in pocket (it meant I also avoided buying anything else). Usually staff in climbing areas tend to be a bit more switched on (perhaps because they can get their fix).

That said, S & R spent hours helping my lady to get her boots right.

Talk to Steve Round at Bernie's in Ingleton - he owns the place, can't wait to get on a hill and refuses to sell unsuitable kit.

Jon

In reply to Andy: The bindings are stated by the manufacturer to take a climbing boot so I was pissed off after they said they would do it after seeing boots and bindings

In reply to Jon Grimshaw: I tried getting a ski mountaineering boot fitted which I own then they flat refused again which baffled me. I have now done the job myself and they claimed there was insufficient depth in the ski for the screws again they were completely wrong.
Please keep this thread alive in my abscence someone.

In reply to Chris: I think the problem is that the ski tec guys are used to massive forces being put on screws and bindings and they don't realise that climbers are really only going to shuffel around in them. Paul Ramsden uses a pair of really short womens carving ski's with some old school plastic binding and they work great. Marko Pretzl uses a pair of ski'd he's cut in half. If a proper ski person saw thoes ski's they'ed die laughing. The ski tecs don't ralise that all climbers want is somthing better then snow shoes, and are willing to except alot of compromises. In thier mind they just think 'why don't you just learn to ski?' and prefare not to get involved.

Andy

In reply to Chris: yeh god snow n rock r very bad. I bought a brand new pair of five ten anasasi shoes. I had worn them twice when the rubber started to peel from the sole so I took them back and expected an apology and an instant replacement. I had entered the British Indoor Climbing Championships and was doing reasonably well, the final round took place in liverpool in two days time and was due to travel the next day, the last thing I needed whilst I was climbing was buggered rock shoes, the sole had started to peel whilst training the day before. So I went into the Bristol superstore and clearly explained my problem. The assistant said he knew that this does happen to five tens, but they had to be sent off, so I explained that I needed them by tomorrow,I dont want a repair that takes two weeks I want a new pair now I explained, they would'nt change them until I yelled at them told them that I would tell everyone at the B.I.C.C how terrible snow and rock was!! so threatening does work

In reply to Andy kirkpatrick:

The problem is that Chris asked if the job could be done as THE MANUFACTURER of the boot said they were suitable and was first told yes then no.

To say the techies do not understand climbers requirements does not absolve them, they are supposed to be experts at their job and should know the right questions to ask if someone wants something like that doing.
You personally buy stoves and then make hangers for them and storm shields, not recommended by the maker but an 'at your own risk' modification. Surely the ski fitters should follow a similar policy?

In reply to sutty:



Surely a personal modification and a commercial one are completely different kettles of fish.

I can make all the modifications I like to something, but if I ask someone who's supposed to know about the things and give them money to do it they're entering into a whole new area of liability in the case that something did go awry. The difference between "at your own risk", and as authorised by your local friendly (or not) ski tech is quite substantial.

In reply to Shezzer:

You miss the point. I meant that if someone asks the ski fitter to fit boots that they do not normally fit it would be at the customers risk.

In reply to stone monkey:

hi stone monkey, apologies for the service you recieved at the bristol store as regards 5:10 boots peeling we now have had clarification from 5:10 that we can exchange their boots with this problem , however they would need to be accompanied with a snow and rock reciept for immediate replacement if not they would be sent off.
Please feel free to speak to me at the bristol store at any time if you have problems in the future .

In reply to Andy Kirkpatrick: That just about sums it up...my own strong recommendations for mountain equipment in general are Cotswold in Betws and Fisher in Keswick. Fisher staff are always prepared to spend time if you have a problem..

In reply to Chris: Hi Chris just thought I would try and clear up some of the confusion regarding your grievance regarding our service at Snow and Rock.I believe that the boot that you presented to my equipment department was a Salomon Super Mountain 8.This boot is a fairly basic B2 rated mountaineering boot and therfore is not compatible with the Ski blade and the Silvereta Easy 500.Also the Ski blade and the binding are not compatible due to the length of the mounting area compared with the lentgh of the binding mounting points.

As I understand for a boot to be compatible with the bindings it must have a DIN sole unit which the Super mountain 8's do not have!

Had my technician mounted the bindings on your ski blades then the screws would have only been seated into 2mm of the skiblade in that was not reinforced for a binding mount.I'm sure you would agree that this is a far from ideal situation and that you would be even more annoyed with us had you used the skiblades and then received an injury due to the poor compatbility.

I can only apologise if you still feel that we have wasted your time and I would suggest that if you have any further grievances with Snow and Rock Kensington that you talk to the management first before airing your your views on gossip columns

One final point regarding staff knowledge and experience here at Kensington we currently have a polish guide who climbs ED2 and has 15 years experience ,a South African who has 11years climbing experience regularly onsighting 7a's WI 5 and E4's,an Austrailian girl who has been climbing 6years including alpine trad and sport to a consistently high level and also I have been climbing for 14 years to a rather more moderate level in all aspects of the sport in many varied locations.If anyone feels that we are lacking in experience and knowledge please let me know how we could improve the situation !!



Cheers Sheridan Assistant Store Manager .

In reply to Sheridan Bridal:

Case closed..............

In reply to Chris:

Have to say I've had nothing but good experiences from S&R Bristol - competent and accurate advice and service both from their climbing and skiing departments. And that's from a very picky gear freak.

In reply to Chris: I don't work for s+r, thank god, but i know sheridan and I can confirm he is the biggest gear freak i have ever met! If you want advice and consider that what he says isn't good enough then the advice you want doesn't exist!

In reply to ben e: I'm afraid I can't agree. I went there for a pound of bananas, and despite insisting and articulating clearly, when I got home there was a pair of crampons in the bag! What makes it worse is I don't even have a dog.

I think it's a disgrace!!!!

In reply to Andy Kirkpatrick:


Damn. You saw through my cunningly disguised characterisations. I'm sure you actually said that as well on the day, but it doesn't make nearly as a good a story does it? You also sold my girlfriend a helmet many years ago as well, and still if she's flicking through one of my climbing mags and sees a picture of you, she'll say: "oh look! He sold me my helmet!" with a slightly dreamy expression that leaves me with a deep nagging resentment towards you...

In reply to Chris: Its not just Snow and Rock, but I find that most of the people who work in the outdoor shops in the south east have little experience outside on the fells/mountains and therefore have trouble recommending anything. I know this may sounds like a generalisation and it is, there will obviously people who do know what they're talking about but I find them few and far between.

I know its not convienient but i tend to phone or visit a shop in the lakes, scotland or somewhere where the shops workers are outdoor enthusiasts helps as they will give you honest advice.

I came to this conculsion whilst trying to buy some winter boots. Knowone down here could realy recommend anything and whilst trying them on they couldnt answer any questions at all. I went in nearly all the outdoor shops in London and ended up finding someone who could help at Urban Rock (Castle Climbing Centre).

S

In reply to TobyA:

'You also sold my girlfriend a helmet many years ago as well, and still if she's flicking through one of my climbing mags and sees a picture of you, she'll say: "oh look! He sold me my helmet!" with a slightly dreamy expression that leaves me with a deep nagging resentment towards you...'

Sounds like she must be suffering from some kind of head injury - are you sure the helmets still in working order?

In reply to Sheridan Bridal:

If you read the thread, it appears that he tried that..

In reply to Andy Kirkpatrick:


Oooer... sounds a bit rude.

Andy

In reply to Sheridan Bridal:

I had excellent and patient service in your shop buying some winter boots. After a bit of fiddling with heel lifts etc., they feel as comfortable as a pair of slippers. Top job, shame I can't remember the guy's name, but he'd obviously been well trained, despite not having done loads of winter stuff.

WW

In reply to Sheridan Bridal:
I did visit your stores with boots and snowblades, several times and was told yes three times and no once. That is my problem not the ability of your staff.
Finally I received no apology and was fuming when someone did want to talk to me.
Are you willing to refund my travelling expenses?

In reply to ChrisDaly: bump

In reply to Chris:

Base Camp in Ilkley are trustworthy and will do their upmost to help you out. In fact, I feel they're a bit too trusting of people sometimes. They'll definately get the job done, won't lie to you and will be honest if things aren't going right or haven't turned out right. Make use of their great service!.

In reply to hopspud:

I agree they are always very friendly and helpful but I think they are more skiers than climbers. Their main problem is they are so small they can't afford to hold much stock so they are invariably out of even fairly basic things, for climbing at least.

In reply to Chris: I know what you mean, i went into the new Port Solent "superstore" whilst they had a large range and the new sportiva testarosas, the sales staff just totally ignored me and even when i did ask if they had a shoe in my size the assistant seemed to take great joy in talking down to me even though what he was quoting was complete rubbish! So after purchasing some fairlly funky Moon clothing i continued on my way down to Swanage, for the recent dorset deep water soloing fest, awsome weekend! On the way i took a look in the new cotswold outdoor in bournemouth, and was presentlly suprised, the guy knew what he was talking about and put me under no pressure, which is a refreshing change to find a shop which dont have staff on commission unlike snow and rock. But my new shoes are well sweet, the guy took one look at my feet and suggested a few pairs of shoes and bingo i walked out with a pair chilli phantoms-great shoe! well pleased-prob worth a look if u down in the area.

In reply to Chris: I was lucky. I just went in, and got some bloke who swallowed the catalogue and wanted to show off. I didn't need his advice, I certainly know more on the particular subject than him, and I only asked him 'if do you have any... in?". I short thrifted him, but some other quite genuine guy slotted himself in, and was basically pretty good. So for once I've had good service from them!