/ ML Equivalent Qualification - USA

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
AWR on 06 Feb 2013
Me and my Mrs (half) jokingly discussed buggering off to the USA last night and it got me wondering, if someone with an MT-UK qualification moved to the USA and wanted to work in the outdoors, what is their equivilent 'awarding body' and how easy would the transition be?

Assume I'd rather get the other country's qualification than get IML.
JayPee630 - on 06 Feb 2013
In reply to MountainsAreBetterThanOffices:

The IML award isn't recognised in the USA anyway. AFAIK there isn't an equivalent national organisation like the MLT, but only regional/state bodies. The closest would be the Guides Association I think, but they deal with climbing more.
JIB - on 06 Feb 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to MountainsAreBetterThanOffices)
>
> The IML award isn't recognised in the USA anyway.

'Currently recognised' is more accurate. Developments include a number of other countries in Europe, N America, S America, N Africa, & Asia.

JayPee630 - on 06 Feb 2013
In reply to JIB:

Fantastic news about North America, but I won't hold my breath. Does the BAIML have news on this?
JIB - on 06 Feb 2013
In reply to JayPee630: From one of the BAIML UIMLA reps. Check the BAIML fb threads for details, or mail me. Certainly there is an increasing rate of progress with more countries now interested in becoming full members of UIMLA, and then following it through.
IainRUK - on 06 Feb 2013
In reply to MountainsAreBetterThanOffices:
> Me and my Mrs (half) jokingly discussed buggering off to the USA last night and it got me wondering, if someone with an MT-UK qualification moved to the USA and wanted to work in the outdoors, what is their equivilent 'awarding body' and how easy would the transition be?
>
> Assume I'd rather get the other country's qualification than get IML.

I'm increasingly suspicious of the IML..

Its changed so much how can the IML of 15 years ago but equivalent to todays IML..

TBH I'm now of the view that either use your British qualifications or get local ones..

I think it will vary by state? Good thread I'll follow with interest..
IainRUK - on 06 Feb 2013
In reply to JIB: So the US suddenly recognise the IML.. is that the IML of yesteryear or todays version/
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I don't understand your cynicism with the IML, I've noticed you say this a few times. It's just an award that's adapting, as the ML has over the years, and as all the awards are they are just a part of the matrix that gos to making you an experienced leader/guide.

What exactly is your problem with it? Have you done the award?
IainRUK - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to JayPee630: Then adapt for all..

Don't shut the door behind you like the current system, so a few make money out of the rest..

No.. You know I haven't. You ask me this every time. I say no Sarah, my then wife and business partner, did. She did her IML training in the UK, at PyB, and just recapped her Summer ML.. with poorly laid out nav points for many hundreds of pounds.. so what was the point?




IainRUK - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to IainRUK: So how can the US just accept the IML now and accept IML's from yesteryear..

They should accept the current system.. judge it on that and those from the past should go through it as it has changed that much..

Or if it hasn't? Then why is it so much more expensive?
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Alright, alright, sorry I've asked you before, I don't make a point of remembering everything.

What do you mean 'shut the door'? I really don't get exactly what your meaning still.

The IML is much more than the UK summer ML, and if you'd done the training and assessment you'd know that.
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Exactly the same way that people here accept MIA and MICs that have changed over the years. Why pick the IML out as the 'one' that's changed when they all have. And if you look at the BCU kayaking qualifications they've chnaged even more. If anything the better arguement for an awards validity would be that it's never adapted...

It just comes across like you've got a personal issue with something to do with the IML TBH.
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

It's more expensive now as it's been made more of a stand alone award to bring it into line with other country's awards. Previously you had to have your Winter ML training, now that isn't the case and you do an IML winter module that is more relevant, surely that's better and more fit for purpose.

Yes, it's more expensive but that's understandable as it's become a more comprehensive and better award, even if that higher cost is not initially good for people trying to get the award, but I think it will be better in the long term.

And people that hold the 'old' award are professionally expected to cover any short falls in their own training and experience to bring them up to current award levels and expectations. I just don't see where the problem is with that.

I work in other professional fields and qualifications are adapting the whole time, and people with the older qualifications are expected to keep themselves updates with CPD. Same here with the IML.
tom.m - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to MountainsAreBetterThanOffices: I was told (by an individual I would be very inclined to believe) that we are the only country that requires people to complete our national award (ie the ML awards) then on top of that complete (and pay for) the IML awards. Other countries just require people to complete their national awards then simply apply for equivalence. I was informed that given a decent level of French you can take your winter ML to the offices (I believe in France) and exchange it for an IML carnet.

If true it would be similar to the BMG requring aspirant guides to do a british scheme completing that, then getting them to do an international scheme.
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to tom.m:

Nobody requires you to do anything! Especially not in this country. If anything it's other countries that need an award not the UK.

This wasn't some conspiracy by people to make you do another award! It was done to make us more able to work abroad. You don't have to do it if you don't want to, you can go and work with your ML (or even nothing) if you can get work.

Of course there are specific conditions in parts of the world that you would never encounter in a lifetime of ML or even Winter ML or MIA work in the UK, so it doesn't seem crazy to have an award that covers those does it?

The analogy to the guides scheme is wrong and doesn't make sense.
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to tom.m:

"I was informed that given a decent level of French you can take your winter ML to the offices (I believe in France) and exchange it for an IML carnet."

I don't know if you can do this or not (knowing the way the French system works a bit I'd doubt it very much) but even if you could, you'd be negligent unless you had the experience to be leading groups in that kind of terrain, something the ML and Winter Ml don't cover at all.

I think it's a common mistake to make by people to not understand the particular issues around leading groups in the mountains outside the UK that UK awards don't prepare you for at all. Hence the need and demand for the IML award.

But as I said, nobody in BAIML or the MLTB requires you to do it, if you can get work without it go ahead. Just make sure you know what you're doing and can justify it if something goes wrong.
IainRUK - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Alright, alright, sorry I've asked you before, I don't make a point of remembering everything.
>
> What do you mean 'shut the door'? I really don't get exactly what your meaning still.
>
> The IML is much more than the UK summer ML, and if you'd done the training and assessment you'd know that.

For sure... but the UK module was a re-cap.. which they admitted..

And I have issues with it being only ran by the national centers.. a captured market and doesn't encourage the award to improve.. Sarah did hers and spent most of the days sat around drinking tea recapping her summer ML, then did the timed nav challenge and found a point missing..

If there was more competition there would be a stronger desire to put on an award that wasn't merely re-capping.. I'm sure other modules do more but why pay the hundreds for the recap..
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to IainRUK:


OK, thanks for answering, that makes more sense. Sorry if I seemed mardy, I get your point now about the closed shop thing, but I guess it's the same with the MIA and MIC, only the Brenin and Lodge are 'allowed' to run those as well.

FWIW I did my training at the Lodge and thought it was excellent, really indepth and well run, and a testing speed navigation bit as well.

Be interested to hear from any of the MLTB or providers on this.
tom.m - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to JayPee630: I'm aware of the 'you dont need qualifications if you don't want to' argument (actually in France I'm pretty sure you do need a qualification, as required by law). But my point is that the other countries who certificate the IML have brought their national schemes in line so all you have to do is apply for equivalence rather than doing another set of qualifications to extend the remit. Whereas over here we would have to do an entirely new set of training and assessment courses, for which of course we have to pay someone.
tom.m - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to tom.m)
>
you'd be negligent unless you had the experience to be leading groups in that kind of terrain, something the ML and Winter Ml don't cover at all.
>
>What 'kind of terrain' exactly is it in the IML syllabus that couldn't be assessed in the UK ML qualifications?
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to tom.m:

I think you seem slightly unaware of what the IML award covers.

How do you think you could fit subjects such as trekking at altitude, alpine history and culture, use of huts, working with porters and pack animals, high altitude flora and fauna, use of fixed gear, navigating on non-UK standard maps and much more into the UK awards?
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to tom.m:

And if you can get equivalence with your ML/Winter ML then stop complaining and do that rather then the IML!

Yes, you have to do more training and assessments as it's a different environment that you'll be working in. Similar, but different.

I don't understand your point, and I think you seen to be talking from a position of not understanding either the remit of the UK awards or the IML scheme.
JayPee630 - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to tom.m:

Considering one of the problems is trying to get all the syllabus for the UK awards covered on the UK training courses, I can't see people thanking you wanting to do some IML related topics that 99.9% of people will have no interest in ever using.

Hence a separate award, that was partly dictated to by other countrys to bring our training into line with theirs. And having met and worked with French IMLs I'd say on average they are of a MUCH higher standard and have a better depth of knowledge in a wider range of mountain related topics than most UK MLs I've met do.
JIB - on 07 Feb 2013
In reply to tom.m:
>What 'kind of terrain' exactly is it in the IML syllabus that couldn't be assessed in the UK ML qualifications?

Typically, alpine terrain over 1344m. Unfortunately, the UK doesn't have terrain over this height. The management of the hazards in this alpine terrain are significant and different to those trained and assessed at ML summer. For example, consider the hazards of alpine terrain in the contexts of physiology, weather, avalanche, rockfall, fixed equipment, and rescue (just to provide a few differences) in alpine summer and winter conditions.

To respond to your point about gaining equivalence in France. There is nothing stopping anyone from applying for equivalence with the IML; quite simply, you would have to prove that your qualifications and experience are equivalent to the IML. Yes, you would receive 'equivalence' from the DJES if successful, *but* you also need a carnet to operate as an IML. The carnets are issued by the associations of the member countries of UIMLA, for example SNAM in France, so you would need to join one of the member associations to receive a carnet by meeting their respective requirements for membership. The continuing renewal of the carnet requires the holder to continue to meet the national association's requirements, for example CPD (recyclage in SNAM), insurance, etc. Unfortunately, by following this route, I understand that the carnet holder would not be eligible to join BAIML because they don't hold the IML.

Should the IML be integrated into the existing ML scheme as the national qualification for the UK? Consider that most ML holders are volunteers and that the cost for ML is already quite high for volunteers (this is a point often made when considering whether to re-join the MTA - previously the MLTA - with its requirement for CPD), then add on the additional elements for alpine training and assessment in the summer and winter. It would be a non-starter in my view.

Furthermore, I don't think that the requirement for alpine training and assessment can be safely circumvented by training and assessing in the UK alone. This was the outcome of the review of the IML in 2006 which saw the introduction of the separate summer and winter training and assessment courses.
JIB - on 07 Feb 2013
A clarification. The review of the IML in 2006 took into account the changes in the EML/IML which had already occurred. The two stage UK-based training and international venue-based assessment process in use then was revised into the separate four stage summer training (UK), summer assessment (international venue), winter training and assessment courses (both international venues).

There were other differences in the training and assessment programmes used in the early period when the EML was first introduced.
ads.ukclimbing.com
JayPee630 - on 08 Feb 2013
In reply to JIB:

Thanks for that JIB, I hope that's cleared things up for some people.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.