/ Crampon considerations...

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Jamie B - on 01 Mar 2013
Two seperate questions really, but both occupying me as I consider getting new points.

Which is more secure, crampomatic or newmatic style front bindings/bails? I've had both come off, but am starting to think the wire bail is not so clever on well-worn boots, or that it even contributes to the front of the sole unit lifting out? The flip side is that it does seem to set the points further forward.

I never felt that the secondary points on my G14s did all that much, which is one of the reasons I stopped using them on ice - would anyone suggest whether the Lynx or Cyborg are any more convincing in this respect? And what other pros and cons to these models?

All ideas, anecdotes and chat welcome.
In reply to Jamie B:
> would anyone suggest whether the Lynx or Cyborg are any more convincing in this respect?

The original cyborgs were notoriously bad in that retrospect - I believe BD redesigned them though. How did you managed to lose a newmatic type crampon!?
Jamie B - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Er, it fell off. Fortunately I'd just topped out.
In reply to Jamie B: How though?! I was climbing in my newmatic G12s and Trango S boots on wednesday, and thought I could detect a little bit off boot bend when on steep ice; but calmed myself (i was soloing) thinking that it seemed almost impossible for the boot to escape from that sort of binding - so now I'm worried! :)
wilkie14c - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B: I've had Charlet S12s (come off altogether (strap ons) G14s occasionally work loose but struck gold now with La sportiva Trango Extremes and G20s. The strap is just a security measure to prevent you losing it is it came loose but they have been rock solid with just the front bale and heel clip. They aren't even 'that' tight to fit either. I think yea, a lot has to do with how the toe of the boot fits the shape of the toe bale. Have you tried fitting the bail to the other bail fitting holes to bring the bail forward/back any? might help
Jamie B - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

G20s look great, but I can't reconcile to the idea of a non-replaceable front-point.
wilkie14c - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
You'd have to be a mixed climbing monster to wear them out in a season, Mine have done 5 long days and show no wear at all. Guess you'd have to consider longevity VS lighness <sounds like you have already> I went for lighness. I'd be happy with 3 seasons all things considered.
Bomber on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
I have now used the Petzl Lynx with wire toe bail and centre set monopoint on B3 boots for two seasons without any problens, No issue with looseness.
The only disadvantage that i have found is that the buckle on the strap is fairly small making it very fiddly when wearing gloves, easily surmounted though.
Advantages, you can choose and swap between toe bail or plastic toe cup (sorry cant think of proper name) at any time, meaning that as your boots wear you can adapt the crampons; front points are changeable; adjustable between mono and duo; able to be offset and able to adjust the front point length.
All in all a very satisfied customer.
Ander on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

The best one is the one that fits best.

In this respect, the Lynx is the best option on paper.
However, what really matters is how a particular crampon fits on your particular boot. The nature of the front bail is secondary.

Unlike the BD and Grivel crampons I've got, I can get the Lynx on both mine and my missus boots without recourse to swapping any bits between crampons to get a fit, etc. That doesn't mean it doesn't take some fiddling to get the perfect fit, but it's acheivable.

They're pricey, but I've seen them for Ł165 which isn't that much more than the competetors. On the other hand, if a BD or a Grivel crampon fit your boot, then that's the one to go for.
Jamie B - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

> You'd have to be a mixed climbing monster to wear them out in a season,

I am.
JXM - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> The original cyborgs were notoriously bad in that retrospect - I believe BD redesigned them though.

In what way? Would you care to elaborate? I think I am climbing on the original Cyborgs and I haven't found them particularly bad but then again I haven't climbed on anything else for years so I don't know any different. Would I likely find that I have much better footwork if I change to Lynx's, G20's or similar?
matejn - on 01 Mar 2013
In reply to JXM: YouŽll be surprised how climbing with Lynx can change your footwork (for better). I know I was.
ice.solo - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

i got 2 seasons/70 days out of my first pair, 2nd pair this season has had about 30 days so far and looking to get about the same.

a mix of about 25% approachs, 50% ice and 25% alpine mixed.
In reply to JXM: From what I remember people said that the secondary points were not angled forward enough and gave the front point(s) very little support. Google might turn up more. It may have been there was a model between Cyborgs and the Switchblades - BD's last fully rigid crampon from the late 90s - did they do a model called Bionics maybe? - and the criticism might refer to that model. Having said all that, one of my friends has a pair and seems to float up stuff in his with no problems! http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3bhSo6922y4/S6aP3ftNmVI/AAAAAAAACK4/aWZ2yS7aDjg/s1600-h/Dave-Kisko1.jpg So perhaps the criticism was overblown anyway.
In reply to matejn:
> (In reply to JXM) YouŽll be surprised how climbing with Lynx can change your footwork (for better).

In what way? What crampons were they replacing?
Hay - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
Jamie,
I appreciate that you climb lots of mixed but like you i found it a struggle to climb any ice in my G14s, esp in mono mode.
I still have the g14s but have been using full bale vasaks on ice this year. What a difference, cant tell you how much better they are. Solid, agressive, great secondary points for dropping down on to.
Bruce
In reply to Hay: Really interesting. I have friend who has given up on using his Petzl Darts on ice in favour of at first G12s and now I think he has Sabretooths. Is there a renaissance of classic crampons going on?
Gwilymstarks on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

Jamie,

I have gone back to G12 crampons for all general mountaineering and for ice climbing. The mono point G14's just come out for harder mixed stuff (they have not been used at all this year).

You will of course have noticed the two front point holes rather than one when copying my route choice all last week :-)

Gwilym
Hay - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to TobyA:
Ooop. Sorry Toby/Jamie.
I meant Sarkens.
dek - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Hay:
The new Sarkens do look good. I like the look of those front points. I believe Petzl have beefed the metal up a bit, due to a few reported failures?
Out of interest, how have you found them on hardish Scottish gullies and mixed, need much filing to keep them sharp ish?
matejn - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to TobyA: Not a replacement, more like an adition. I have climbed for the past for years on a Dart/win combo and just recently bought a new pair of Lynx. My first climb with them was a Supervisor in Bad Gastein, and I was amazed how I was able to climb. All I can say is, that after the first couple of meters I had to adjust my footwork and never looked back. It felt so naturally. More like a footwork on a rock than on ice. Since than, I had used them on some more ice and it was pure joy. I have not used them on any M routes yet, so canŽt comment on that.
Jamie B - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to matejn:

Were you using them in mono or dual mode?
matejn - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B: Just like they came out of a box. I generally always use dual mode for ice climbing.
Hay - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to dek:
Dek. I ve not used them on mixed but have used them on smiths gully and kings ransom recently. I felt more stable on them than on much easier stuff in g14s. The points still very sharp and the amount of bite is pretty incredible.
B.
In reply to matejn: Interesting - superficially they don't look so different to Dartwins for example, so I wonder what it is that makes them feel so much different...? Anyway, very interesting to hear. They do look like very nice crampons.
matejn - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to TobyA: You made me wonder, so I went and had a look at the difference between Dartwin and Lynx. I have fitted one of each to my boots and it seems to me, that the front points on Lynx are turned slightly more inward than those on Dartwins. So when climbing, you have to turn your feet slightly outward to get a good stick and that mimics the way that I put my feet when rock climbing. Hope that makes any sense.
unknownclimber6 - on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

i have an almost new pair of Grivel Rambo evo 4's i will do you cheap if your interested? :D
In reply to matejn:
> So when climbing, you have to turn your feet slightly outward to get a good stick and that mimics the way that I put my feet when rock climbing. Hope that makes any sense.

Absoulutely, when I first got my terminators I discovered exactly the same - you can be slightly "duck footed" for the front point to be sticking out the front of boot. Much much more comfy a stance particularly on narrow pillars I've found. Have stuck with Terminators for 12 years now! Always tempted by fancy new light things (Darts, G20s etc) but the Terminators keep on truckin' and doing it well!
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LakesWinter on 02 Mar 2013
In reply to Jamie B: I dont use the wire bails at the front now, as when the sole unit gets a bit older they fall off. Beyond that, whatever fits best is best though I use G14 for mixed and have started using Cyborgs for ice (newmatic style binding) this season and the length of the front points and sharpness of secondary points is a revelation to me.

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