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Sorry is this has been done to death, but I couldn't find my exact question other than in the winter climbing section.
Off to Glencoe shortly and excited about tackling some big mountain routes, but having trouble deciding what should be on the itinerary. I've already got plenty of classic walks lined up and wanted to add some scrambles. Two that stood out are Aonach Eagach and Curved Ridge. I have guidebooks and have read up online, but I'd appreciate some input from people who have done both the routes.
I have a modest amount of scrambling experience, mostly at Grade 1, and some trad climbing experience at low grades (lead a handful of single pitch routes up to Diff and seconded a few more up to VDiff). I understand the use of gear if required.
My current perception is this:
CR: decent rock, uphill, shortish, protectable with some mild technical interest
AE: death on a stick, awkward unprotectable downclimbs onto ledges of grass and scree where a slip would be fatal, very long, technically simple
My partner is particularly nervous on unprotectable, exposed stuff but happier on more technical terrain where protection is possible and exposure less (although she's seconded all my leads and accompanied me on all my scrambles to date, so she's not a terrified novice). This has led me to think that we'll probably give Aonach Eagach a miss. With this in mind, would I be crazy to set off up the (harder graded) Curved Ridge?
Off to Glencoe shortly and excited about tackling some big mountain routes, but having trouble deciding what should be on the itinerary. I've already got plenty of classic walks lined up and wanted to add some scrambles. Two that stood out are Aonach Eagach and Curved Ridge. I have guidebooks and have read up online, but I'd appreciate some input from people who have done both the routes.
I have a modest amount of scrambling experience, mostly at Grade 1, and some trad climbing experience at low grades (lead a handful of single pitch routes up to Diff and seconded a few more up to VDiff). I understand the use of gear if required.
My current perception is this:
CR: decent rock, uphill, shortish, protectable with some mild technical interest
AE: death on a stick, awkward unprotectable downclimbs onto ledges of grass and scree where a slip would be fatal, very long, technically simple
My partner is particularly nervous on unprotectable, exposed stuff but happier on more technical terrain where protection is possible and exposure less (although she's seconded all my leads and accompanied me on all my scrambles to date, so she's not a terrified novice). This has led me to think that we'll probably give Aonach Eagach a miss. With this in mind, would I be crazy to set off up the (harder graded) Curved Ridge?
In reply to Oujmik:
No advice, but my perception after having done both in "summer":
CR, climbed in rain that turned to strong sunshine that turned into a blizzard at the top. That's Scottish "summer" for you. I think it was a September. We soloed, but from what I can remember there's plenty of gear if you want it. Solid rock, and scrambling all the way. Grade 3 scramble, I think.
AE, did in low cloud and drizzle, also in a September. Long but technically easy (grade 2). Easy to ab the first (and only) tricky descent if you need to. Very broken, scrambling punctuated by a few metres of walking at a time. Not so sure about gear (we didn't take or use any) but you'd be looking at a very very long day if you did it all roped.
Given what you say about your partner, she'd probably prefer CR, which is more like climbing. Only you can decide if it would be crazy, but if you lead Diff and are prepared to take your time and pitch it, it doesn't seem a bad idea. You're also less likely to hold up other parties by pitching CR than if you pitched AE.
No advice, but my perception after having done both in "summer":
CR, climbed in rain that turned to strong sunshine that turned into a blizzard at the top. That's Scottish "summer" for you. I think it was a September. We soloed, but from what I can remember there's plenty of gear if you want it. Solid rock, and scrambling all the way. Grade 3 scramble, I think.
AE, did in low cloud and drizzle, also in a September. Long but technically easy (grade 2). Easy to ab the first (and only) tricky descent if you need to. Very broken, scrambling punctuated by a few metres of walking at a time. Not so sure about gear (we didn't take or use any) but you'd be looking at a very very long day if you did it all roped.
Given what you say about your partner, she'd probably prefer CR, which is more like climbing. Only you can decide if it would be crazy, but if you lead Diff and are prepared to take your time and pitch it, it doesn't seem a bad idea. You're also less likely to hold up other parties by pitching CR than if you pitched AE.
In reply to Oujmik: I've done both of these in the last two weeks; in my opinion AE feels more exposed but is technically easier. AE is certainly not unprotectable, I just don't think there is any need to protect it in summer.
If you've lead some trad stuff, just go for it and take a rope for a bit of security. Not really unnecessary on either but it's nice to have if someone is worried about a section.
Slips on both at certain points could be very serious so don't slip!
If you've lead some trad stuff, just go for it and take a rope for a bit of security. Not really unnecessary on either but it's nice to have if someone is worried about a section.
Slips on both at certain points could be very serious so don't slip!
I think CR is more exposed and than the AE. As you are going up the perception of the drop behind you is exagerated as the ground you just covered goes out of sight and you get the feeling of being high up above rannoch moor. The initial drop down from Am Bodach is a bit daunting to start the day off but it is pretty much just a walk until you get to the chimney which is very easy, and the pinnacles which I find easy as well.
I have never considered the AE death on a stick, particularly in good dry weather. It is not uncommon to see droves of people including kids and dogs going along it and I know many hillwalkers who have done it, but would never go near Curved Ridge which overall has more of a rock climbing feel to it. The downclimbing is pretty straight forward and easily done on the bum in my opinion. If your partner is nervous just take the rope and give them tension as they down climb, there are enough boulders to put the rope or a sling round where needed or stick a nut in. Where there is no gear the terrain is easy walking terrain.
I have never considered the AE death on a stick, particularly in good dry weather. It is not uncommon to see droves of people including kids and dogs going along it and I know many hillwalkers who have done it, but would never go near Curved Ridge which overall has more of a rock climbing feel to it. The downclimbing is pretty straight forward and easily done on the bum in my opinion. If your partner is nervous just take the rope and give them tension as they down climb, there are enough boulders to put the rope or a sling round where needed or stick a nut in. Where there is no gear the terrain is easy walking terrain.
In reply to Milesy:
I agree. For someone with modest scrambling and single-pitch experience, the steep start of curved ridge is more likely to feel like death on a stick, unless you pitch it (easy to do). Whereas AE is a spectacular, airy walk with some pleasant scrambly bits (I recall).
High winds might tip the balance the other way. Both should be fine.. AE is obviously a longer day.
I agree. For someone with modest scrambling and single-pitch experience, the steep start of curved ridge is more likely to feel like death on a stick, unless you pitch it (easy to do). Whereas AE is a spectacular, airy walk with some pleasant scrambly bits (I recall).
High winds might tip the balance the other way. Both should be fine.. AE is obviously a longer day.
In reply to Oujmik:
If you do go for AE, then I think it's best to go the "normal" direction, ie east to west.
I've done it that way 3 or 4 times, and once west to east. Found east to west a lot more tricky for some reason, I may just have missed some obvious ramps, but I felt I ended up in a couple of pretty hairy situations which I've never felt going the normal way. Probably just a bad nav day.
CR - only one real crux move which if you've done any rock climbing at all you'll nip up no probs, I'd say the only people who need roped up are hillwalkers who've not done any climbing.
If you do go for AE, then I think it's best to go the "normal" direction, ie east to west.
I've done it that way 3 or 4 times, and once west to east. Found east to west a lot more tricky for some reason, I may just have missed some obvious ramps, but I felt I ended up in a couple of pretty hairy situations which I've never felt going the normal way. Probably just a bad nav day.
CR - only one real crux move which if you've done any rock climbing at all you'll nip up no probs, I'd say the only people who need roped up are hillwalkers who've not done any climbing.
In reply to Oujmik: Thanks all. Whatever happens I'll be carrying a bit of gear and a short rope as you never know when you might need them. I'm open (in fact keen if the terrain merits it and we're not in anyone's way) to the idea of taking a basic rack and pitching up the harder sections of CR.
It's reassuring to know that there is reasonable protection possible on AE. We certainly wouldn't consider pitching the whole thing as we tend to move slowly as the best of times. Often on moderate uphill ground I'll solo sections whilst roped up and then belay my partner, but on Aonach Eagach this seems more like a potential cause of accidents than a solution.
It's reassuring to know that there is reasonable protection possible on AE. We certainly wouldn't consider pitching the whole thing as we tend to move slowly as the best of times. Often on moderate uphill ground I'll solo sections whilst roped up and then belay my partner, but on Aonach Eagach this seems more like a potential cause of accidents than a solution.
In reply to Oujmik:
The only reason the Aonach Eagach should be 'death on a stick' is if you make the mistake of trying to retreat down from it, to the South (Glen Coe side).
Curved Ridge is harder scrambling, harder to find the start of, more committing (the Aonach Eagach is escapable to the North in several places, should that be absolutely necessary), and has more scrambling on it (the Aonach Eagach is mostly walking, with many short scrambling sections).
Neither, in the dry, should be out of the reach of any hillgoer that can get to them, and who can keep calm when nervous. Both are really great scrambles!
It all depends what you mean by "My partner is particularly nervous on ..."
If you think they might panic, you could try something else first and see how it goes.
For example, Sron na Lairig is easier, with a short exposed section that will give you a good feel for what the narrower parts of the Aonach Eagach are like.
The only reason the Aonach Eagach should be 'death on a stick' is if you make the mistake of trying to retreat down from it, to the South (Glen Coe side).
Curved Ridge is harder scrambling, harder to find the start of, more committing (the Aonach Eagach is escapable to the North in several places, should that be absolutely necessary), and has more scrambling on it (the Aonach Eagach is mostly walking, with many short scrambling sections).
Neither, in the dry, should be out of the reach of any hillgoer that can get to them, and who can keep calm when nervous. Both are really great scrambles!
It all depends what you mean by "My partner is particularly nervous on ..."
If you think they might panic, you could try something else first and see how it goes.
For example, Sron na Lairig is easier, with a short exposed section that will give you a good feel for what the narrower parts of the Aonach Eagach are like.
In reply to Oujmik: I'm going to offer a contrary view here and say that for some people the exposure on the Aonach Eagach can be worse. There are sections in the pinnacles where you have a wall of rock on one side of you (with good and plentiful handholds, it must be said) and what can feel like a yawning void out towards Glen Coe on the other. It is actually quite safe, not least because of the aforementioned handholds, but can be off-putting if you get spooked by a bit of bottomless-ness (if such a word exists - and if doesn't then it should IMO).
Curved Ridge, on the other hand, I have downclimbed in trainers - including the supposed "steep start ... likely to feel like death on a stick". Note that, in terms of climbing prowess, I am what a taxonomist would call the "type specimen" of an abject punter. I think Milesy's comment about "the appreciation of the drop behind you" can be addressed by the old adage: don't look down.
You can protect the airy bits on the Aonach Eagach, but the vast majority don't bother. On a good weather day you'd risk holding up other parties if you tried to, potentially increasing the stress levels in your own party further (it's quite narrow in some places with no much room to pass). Given what you've said about your partner ie not keen on exposed ground without protection but happy on more technical ground with protection, I wouldn't rule out Curved Ridge by any means.
Skog's suggestion of Sron na Lairig as a "taster" could be worth thinking about too. As well as the narrow bit on the Sron itself, if you top out on Stob Coire Sgreamhach and head down along Beinn Fhada then there's a bit of interesting scrambly downclimbing on good rock at the start of the descent.
One of the keys to not having an epic on Curved Ridge is to actually start up Curved Ridge, rather than D Gully Buttress (been there, done that, survived the experience). Approaching from the Waterslide you arrive at the start of D Gully Buttress first and there is a tempting-looking line of obvious holds to lure you off the ground, but it gets significantly more "exciting" higher up (up to Severe in places, although there are supposed to be ways to bypass the hardest sections). The start of Curved Ridge is further on, and reasonably obvious once you get to it (apart from anything else it will usually be noticeably decorated with crampon scratches from ascents the winter just gone). If you're not sure then don't start climbing, just keep going on the eroded path and if you find yourself in Easy Gully then you've gone too far and you just need to backtrack a short way.
If you do choose the Aonach Eagach (and assuming you do it east to west) then pay heed to all the good advice about how to get down from Sgorr nam Fiannaidh. Basically, don't even think about descending the path alongside Clachaig Gully - that really is death on a stick.
Curved Ridge, on the other hand, I have downclimbed in trainers - including the supposed "steep start ... likely to feel like death on a stick". Note that, in terms of climbing prowess, I am what a taxonomist would call the "type specimen" of an abject punter. I think Milesy's comment about "the appreciation of the drop behind you" can be addressed by the old adage: don't look down.
You can protect the airy bits on the Aonach Eagach, but the vast majority don't bother. On a good weather day you'd risk holding up other parties if you tried to, potentially increasing the stress levels in your own party further (it's quite narrow in some places with no much room to pass). Given what you've said about your partner ie not keen on exposed ground without protection but happy on more technical ground with protection, I wouldn't rule out Curved Ridge by any means.
Skog's suggestion of Sron na Lairig as a "taster" could be worth thinking about too. As well as the narrow bit on the Sron itself, if you top out on Stob Coire Sgreamhach and head down along Beinn Fhada then there's a bit of interesting scrambly downclimbing on good rock at the start of the descent.
One of the keys to not having an epic on Curved Ridge is to actually start up Curved Ridge, rather than D Gully Buttress (been there, done that, survived the experience). Approaching from the Waterslide you arrive at the start of D Gully Buttress first and there is a tempting-looking line of obvious holds to lure you off the ground, but it gets significantly more "exciting" higher up (up to Severe in places, although there are supposed to be ways to bypass the hardest sections). The start of Curved Ridge is further on, and reasonably obvious once you get to it (apart from anything else it will usually be noticeably decorated with crampon scratches from ascents the winter just gone). If you're not sure then don't start climbing, just keep going on the eroded path and if you find yourself in Easy Gully then you've gone too far and you just need to backtrack a short way.
If you do choose the Aonach Eagach (and assuming you do it east to west) then pay heed to all the good advice about how to get down from Sgorr nam Fiannaidh. Basically, don't even think about descending the path alongside Clachaig Gully - that really is death on a stick.
When I took a friend who was aprehensive about the AE I told them to forget about the drop on the Glen Coe side and focus their mind and eyes on the Kinlochleven side, and showing them all the points where you can easily drop down the grass at the other side was enough to keep him calm the full way to the end.
In reply to Milesy:
Not done AE for about 30yrs. However, did CR about 4 yrs ago with two of my children who were 11 and 9 at the time. They didn't find it difficult. Unless you are used to Alpine style moving together, it's easier to protect using rope as there is no traversing. We didn't use a rope, but I would suggest taking a short one, just in case.
Not done AE for about 30yrs. However, did CR about 4 yrs ago with two of my children who were 11 and 9 at the time. They didn't find it difficult. Unless you are used to Alpine style moving together, it's easier to protect using rope as there is no traversing. We didn't use a rope, but I would suggest taking a short one, just in case.
In reply to Martin W: Thanks for the pointers. I'll add Sron na Lairig to the list (if it's not on there already, can't keep track of all the scottish names). How does that compare to classic Welsh grade 1s such as Tryfan North Ridge and Crib Goch (which I'd say are fairly comfortable for us)?
In reply to Oujmik: If you feel comfortable on Grib Goch, you should be able to do the AE in good weather. The hardest downclimb is at the start (going East to West). It's just a bit awkward. After that I don't think it's that much harder than Crib Goch, especially if you climb a bit.
Last time I did it, I came back West to East (best way back to the car, I reckon) and I passed 40-50 people going the other way. No one was roped up.
I've never done CR, but that's a Mod rock climb in my book, that you may want to scramble unroped if you're good enough. I'm amazed anyone took a 9-year-old up it!
Last time I did it, I came back West to East (best way back to the car, I reckon) and I passed 40-50 people going the other way. No one was roped up.
I've never done CR, but that's a Mod rock climb in my book, that you may want to scramble unroped if you're good enough. I'm amazed anyone took a 9-year-old up it!
It is good fun and some of the good bits can either be bypassed or hunted out depending on your mood and the weather, but it is open to variation at a few parts, some of it is chossy. It is much easier than CR and AE. You can finish back down to the Lairig Eilde path or continue on to sgreamhach and down the lost valley, or further to Bidean.
http://atthebealach.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/sron-na-lairig-stob-coire-sgream...
http://atthebealach.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/sron-na-lairig-stob-coire-sgream...
In reply to Pero:
Dad took me up Curved Ridge when I was 8, using a rope for the steep part.
It was one of the most memorable, and best, days of my childhood. We were having a rest at the flat area halfway up, when a paraglider launched off the top of Rannoch Wall above us, which made a real impression on me at the time!
I've since been up and down Curved Ridge I've-long-lost-track-of-how-many times, and I still love it. It feels like a real 'mountain' scramble, an easyish line completely surrounded by steeper, impressive rock, with the near-vertical Rannoch Wall looming above it on one side.
The Aonach Eagach is great, too, mind!
Dad took me up Curved Ridge when I was 8, using a rope for the steep part.
It was one of the most memorable, and best, days of my childhood. We were having a rest at the flat area halfway up, when a paraglider launched off the top of Rannoch Wall above us, which made a real impression on me at the time!
I've since been up and down Curved Ridge I've-long-lost-track-of-how-many times, and I still love it. It feels like a real 'mountain' scramble, an easyish line completely surrounded by steeper, impressive rock, with the near-vertical Rannoch Wall looming above it on one side.
The Aonach Eagach is great, too, mind!
In reply to skog: Much to my shame, I've only come down Curved Ridge after climbing on Rannoch Wall, never gone up it in its own right. I like the idea of taking my kids up CR when they're bigger... how does North Buttress compare in difficulty with CR ?
In reply to lummox:
North Buttress is distinctly steeper and harder than Curved Ridge. It's also an excellent scramble!
There's a short section in some chimneys higher up that I'd say was Diff; this can be avoided on the right, though not particularly obviously when you're there.
Still talking about scrambling on the Buachaille, I also really like Broad Buttress, though it's not quite in the same league as Curved Ridge and North Buttress.
North Buttress is distinctly steeper and harder than Curved Ridge. It's also an excellent scramble!
There's a short section in some chimneys higher up that I'd say was Diff; this can be avoided on the right, though not particularly obviously when you're there.
Still talking about scrambling on the Buachaille, I also really like Broad Buttress, though it's not quite in the same league as Curved Ridge and North Buttress.
In reply to skog: I took my son up CR around the same age, he skooshed it while I quietly clucked like an over protective Hen, HaHa!!
I found North Buttress less exposed than Curved Ridge as it is broader although at one point I went off route and ended up on some crappy terrain too close to slime wall and I had to reverse some hairy choss.
In reply to lummox:
North Butress is more sustained then CR. The Severe variation is one of those "interesting" one movers, which is not at all well protected. A fine route and straightforward if you avoid the direct Severe pitch.
North Butress is more sustained then CR. The Severe variation is one of those "interesting" one movers, which is not at all well protected. A fine route and straightforward if you avoid the direct Severe pitch.
In reply to Joak:
Heh! I'm hoping to take my older daughter up it sometime in the next year or two. She'll love it and I'll be a nervous wreck!
> I took my son up CR around the same age, he skooshed it while I quietly clucked like an over protective Hen, HaHa!!
Heh! I'm hoping to take my older daughter up it sometime in the next year or two. She'll love it and I'll be a nervous wreck!
In reply to skog:
Yes, I think I am. It's about 20yrs since I last did it. In fact having checked the Logbook I was definitely thinking of D. Not much harder than CR, or North if you miss out the awkward bit.
> (In reply to wilkesley)
>
> Severe? Are you maybe thinking of D-Gully Buttress?
>
> Severe? Are you maybe thinking of D-Gully Buttress?
Yes, I think I am. It's about 20yrs since I last did it. In fact having checked the Logbook I was definitely thinking of D. Not much harder than CR, or North if you miss out the awkward bit.
In reply to Oujmik: Well, I'm back from Glencoe and pleased to say we did both AE and CR!
Overall, I'd say they were both easier that expected, particularly from the exposure point of view. There was only one moment on AE when I got a little flutter of 'ooh there's not a lot under my feet' and no such moments on CR. The crux of CR was notable technically harder than other scrambles we've done (used a rope for this bit just to prevent slips), but overall it all went very smoothly. Great fun, thanks for the advice everyone.
Overall, I'd say they were both easier that expected, particularly from the exposure point of view. There was only one moment on AE when I got a little flutter of 'ooh there's not a lot under my feet' and no such moments on CR. The crux of CR was notable technically harder than other scrambles we've done (used a rope for this bit just to prevent slips), but overall it all went very smoothly. Great fun, thanks for the advice everyone.
In reply to Oujmik:
Next time you might be interested in Lower Bow & Quiver Rib on the East face of Aonach Dubh - it's Mod/Diff climbing and would require pitching - it feels like a rock climbing but technically is barely harder than the scrambling on Curved Ridge.
Next time you might be interested in Lower Bow & Quiver Rib on the East face of Aonach Dubh - it's Mod/Diff climbing and would require pitching - it feels like a rock climbing but technically is barely harder than the scrambling on Curved Ridge.
In reply to skog:
Only been up Curved Ridge once and we started up D-Gully Buttress by mistake. I think that's a fairly common one.
> Curved Ridge is harder scrambling, harder to find the start of, more committing
Only been up Curved Ridge once and we started up D-Gully Buttress by mistake. I think that's a fairly common one.
In reply to Douglas Griffin: Beyond common. I was working on the lowest part of D Gully Buttress once and no less than 9 (!!) parties came up to us asking if it was the start of Curved Ridge. By the 9th party I waited until they were close and pointed and just said "Curved Ridge is over there!"
In reply to AlH: When parties follow me at a discreet distance to the foot of D Gully Buttress I normally wait, point and comment how "Curved Ridge looks really good, busy etc.....OVER THERE! eh?" and watch the penny drop.
In reply to Oujmik:
Glad you enjoyed it! Your thread inspired me, a couple of days later, to nip up North Buttress and back down Curved Ridge, and on a later evening after work to nip up Broad Buttress - I even got a faint Brocken Spectre at the summit:
http://www.dreamsofmountains.co.uk/summer2013/20130605Buachaille_Brocken_Sp...
So thanks! The Buachaille's a great hill, isn't it?
Glad you enjoyed it! Your thread inspired me, a couple of days later, to nip up North Buttress and back down Curved Ridge, and on a later evening after work to nip up Broad Buttress - I even got a faint Brocken Spectre at the summit:
http://www.dreamsofmountains.co.uk/summer2013/20130605Buachaille_Brocken_Sp...
So thanks! The Buachaille's a great hill, isn't it?
In reply to Douglas Griffin:
Aye, it's the classic mistake! Easy done, the start of Curved Ridge almost feels too far right.
Aye, it's the classic mistake! Easy done, the start of Curved Ridge almost feels too far right.
In reply to skog: Went up D Gully Buttress once with a mate that hadn't done before, on a cold'ish dampish day, with a "done it a few times, don't need a guide book, nice'n easy big boots blase approach." Did begin to wonder why a climber of Tom's calibre shouted down asking me "Are you sure?... feels feckin necky..." as he blew on his numb fingers to restore circulation in his bendy boots half way up the easy slab. Wasn't until I seconded the "feckin necky slab" that the PENNY DROPPED!!
Cracking picture btw!
Cracking picture btw!
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