UKC

I know there was a meeting recently to get to the bottom of this, but I can't find anything about it anywhere. Anyone got any news?

In reply to Frank the Husky: Anyone?

In reply to Frank the Husky:The minutes of the Lakes area meeting on 4th June in Langdale can be read here http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2868

In reply to shantaram:

Does Dave B - er, let's say 'purport to have any special insight into the motives of the Lake District Popular Front'?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Although there's no real detail in the minutes, I hear from others who were at the meeting the LDPF (or whatever) is made up of Dave Birkett and some friends of his. I have no idea if they're planning to pay for the damage they caused, but apparently Birkett's presentation on how drytooling/climbing routes out of winter condition has damaged more routes than we thought, some of them quite badly. It was, I hear, an excellent presentation.

However their claim that one of the reasons they chopped the gear was because (and here I'm quoting from the minutes) "...The quarry in question is still ‘live’ there being 8 years left on the lease. Permission had not been sought from the quarry owner to place bolts..." is hilarious.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Dave birkett now there's a strange old man.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


The cost of replacing bolts at the Works can be valued in pounds and pence.

The damage dry toolers cause to natural rock cannot be valued.

In reply to xplorer:

Thank F##k somebody is passionate about protecting the sport.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Get off your high horse and do something about it then.

And are you denying Dave birkett its bloody mental

In reply to xplorer:

Were you at the meeting?

In reply to Frank the Husky:


It has a complex back story which is very interesting. Where would you start....ego, power, commercialism, money, retribution, love and passion, possible lies, a change of heart, the environment, jealousy, ambition.

I think only good will come from it.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Hmmmm. Are we playing top trumps?

From you're behaviour I can see you want another long drawn out dry tooling debate..... It's not going to happen with me kiddo! I have never stated Im for or against dry tooling. I just made the point that Dave is a strange old man. Light hearted of coarse.

As I said, you just want a big drawn out debate about something you can personally do very little about.

Dry tooling isn't as widespread as you believe it is. To many climbers love abit of drama, and the chance to pretend their protecting their beloved old school traditional way of climbing.

Don't take this the wrong way, but climbing is a young mans game

In reply to xplorer:

Settle down.

In reply to xplorer:


What does this actually mean?

In reply to xplorer:

Interesting profile there xpl

In reply to kevin stephens:

Listen, I don't need to be climbing at a certain grade to have an opinion. This just shows how ignorant and behind the times climbing really is.

Lets be realistic, how often have you actually witnessed people dry tooling established routes?

There's an incredibly small minority that dry tool these routes, even if it was actually against the law to dry tool, that small minority would still carry on.

You're creating a problem and exaggerating it, just so you can claim you're a hero, because you sat behind a keyboard or sat at a BMC meeting.

The observation I made about climbing being a young mans game is completely true, as with the majority of sports. I'm not young, but I can recognise that the future of climbing is with younger, better more diverse climbers.

Obviously tools on rock cause damage, just like any type of climbing. But I'd be interested to hear opinions and observations.

Do you really believe dry tooling these established routes is really that widespread?

In reply to xplorer:


Dude ! You are off topic. This isnt about your ageism and sexism: keep your prejudice and ignorance to yourself it's ugly.

Climbing as we all know is a young woman's, young mans, boys and girls, middle aged and old persons sport.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

No no please don't try and undermine my opinion and many others opinions by calling me prejudice and ignorant. That certainly isn't true.

So how widespread is dry tooling of established rock routes?

Because that is the fundamental reason of having these long drawn out debates about dry tooling.

In reply to xplorer:

Get rid of that chip on your shoulder.

Everyone's opinion can count, not because of the grade they climb, but on the strength of their opinions. Yours are weak.

North Wales has a great set off guidelines to protect flora, soils and rock. It's called the White guide I believe.

The Lake District needs the same and because of this episode, the works, is going to get one. Drawn up by mainly local climbers with lots of experience under the guidance of the BMC.

The increase in dry tooling and its associated damage is not in question. Nor is the promotion of dry tooling by some top climbers: even Dave Macleod pulled a report of a new route of his this winter because on reflection he overstepped the mark. The fear is, and it is justified, that the more publicity dry tooling existing climbs get, the more popular it will become

Many climbers are concerned enough not to spout hot air, like me and you, but actually do something constructive for the environment and the future of climbing which is important to us all.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

My opinion is, like I've stated numerous times is, dry tooling of established rock routes isn't as wide spread as is being made out.

Do you really disagree with that.

UKC is pretty diverse, so I'd expect to see these so called dry toolers all over the forums, but you don't. That's obviously down to the fact that there really are a very small minority.

Time and money should be spent on education, not long debates covering arguments we have drawn out over and over again.

In reply to xplorer:

It's widespread enough for welsh climbers and lakes climbers (and Scottish climbers) to be concerned, and as you seem ignorant of, publish educational material and have discussions - off line - about a way forward.

Lets leave it to them rather than someone like you who judges the popularity of dry tooling by what you read on the Internet.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

This is why UKC's debates about dry tooling annoy me, you have to start talking personal. This isn't about me it's about dry tooling.

I'm out In The Peak District 3 times a week and in the lakes pretty much every weekend. And like I've said I have never witnessed any dry tooling on established rock routes. That's where my opinion comes from not sitting at a computer all day.

In reply to xplorer:

Fuq me. The entire point of DB's presentation to this meeting, according to reports, was to show the amount of damage which has been caused to established rock routes by climbing them with tools. It's the amount of damage which matters, not the number of idiots causing it. Indeed if you're right and actually a large amount of damage has been caused by only a handful of ascents, one might say that made it more important to address the issue rather than less.

To the mods: is it not possible to ban particularly repetitive and prolific morons?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Isn't this from winter ascents rather than dry tool ascents (esp if we are talking Bowfell Buttress)?

PS Btw Mick: classic initial post, glad you havent lost it

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Is this UKClimbingicide ?

We would miss you JCM.

So in order to get a set of guidelines drawn up for dry tooling DB felt it necessary to destroy a dedicated dry tooling venue, which it now sounds like is going to be re-instated, if it hasn't already ? Am i right or has he not actually admitted it ?

If that is true then he is truly bonkers. Surely he is enough of a Lakes personality to suggest this at the meeting and for it to be carried, especially as it has been successfully done in Wales from what Mick said.

Dry tooling is becoming more prolific, it happened at Hodge Close in the last fortnight, but personally i think the damage caused by Winter climbing in bad conditions is worse.

In reply to Offwidth:

>Isn't this from winter ascents rather than dry tool ascents (esp if we are talking Bowfell Buttress)?

Well, that's the question, isn't it? One man's winter ascent is another man's dry-tooling. Either way, it needs debate.

jcm

In reply to biscuit:

Yes...Woody and DB took the bolts out from the Works; DB has had a change of heart also about dry tooling especially his ascent of Gimmer Crack. Particularly after seeing the damage done by some recent 'winter dry' ascents of summer rock routes.

There's a lot more to it than that though;

Paddy, Brian Davison (lakes winter guidebook compiler) and Steve Ashworth (dry tooling enthusiast extraordinaire), the three people behind the Works didn't turn up to the BMC Langdale meeting (I had to leave early so didn't witness DB's presentation).

The dynamics between the five people mentioned above would provide enough material for a great film or TV miniseries.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Although the call that's being made, rightly or wrongly, in the two cases is completely different and based on completely different factors: one is about whether a mountain rock route is in valid condition for a winter ascent, while the other is about whether a given quarry is a sufficiently poxy choss-hole that it'll never be of any conceivable use to free climbers and might be acceptable to dry-tool whatever the conditions.


True.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

In this case some believe that the promotion of dry tooling venues like The Works will lead to increased participation in dry tooling which could have damaging effects on summer rock routes and also may cause access problems.

Part of the argument is also about the commercial support of dry tooling, in this case gear was donated by climbing company (s) for the construction and engineering of Works and a dry tooling workshop at the Works was promoted by a local shop and run by instructors.

As you may know the bolts were taken out just prior to this dry tooling workshop at the Works.

Again this legitimisation of dry tooling some believe could have damaging effects on summer rock routes and also may cause access problems.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

Haven't you got confused with the script for An Inconvenient Truth?

In reply to xplorer:

Which begs the question, why do you repeatedly post in the manner you do? You've done yourself no favours.....'kiddo'.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

Interesting to say the least.

There is a huge issue ( imo ) about climbing routes out of condition but a dry tooling venue like the cave is something totally different.

It's great to see someone of Dave's stature come out and say that Winter climbing can be a problem but to vandalise someone elses work, who are all well known activists, without talking about it ????

He's gone down in my estimation, not that he will care i guess.

Have the shouts of prosecution etc disappeared now because of who he is ?

I hope he doesn't start to dislike anything else and trash it.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:



Is it illegal ?

I would hope that people like Paddy and Steve ( who i believe were doing the workshop) had intended to educate people. That would do more good than bad surely ?

I refrained from commenting about Woody as i think he is an idiot further proved by the photo in the link above.

Photo from epicentre website:

http://www.theepicentre.co.uk/about-us-i1

Classic.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Dave Birkett who put this picture up?

https://ukc2.com/i/18030.jpg

In reply to biscuit:

Good point; I intend to organise patrols to safeguard the bolts in New Mills bridge.

In reply to Isn't that interesting!:

I can understand how learning from past mistakes might be a difficult concept for some UKC users.

E

In reply to biscuit:


Yeah, but that's the point, isn't it? They're not. If the participants at the Works confined themselves to the Works then sure, they'd be separate issues and virtually no-one would object. But they don't; they train at the Works so that they can get out and climb more and harder things in the mountains in their preferred style, which (in the opinion of some) is the style which is causing the damage we can all observe.

jcm

In reply to Enty:

It normally is for Woody in my experience.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

And this?

https://ukc2.com/i/42354.jpg

In reply to sjc:

Is that dry tooling as a whole (i.e. including stuff like the works) or just dry tooling out of condition winter routes (however you choose to define that)?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

So is it the participants at the works who have been dry tooling on rock routes ? Woody and Dave B have both climbed routes out of condition ( in my opinion ) but haven't used the works. The equation doesn't seem to work.

Person uses the works = going to trash the rock.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

jcm - For what its worth....

'Dry Tooling'. The practice of climbing rock routes - often bolt protected - using the equipment more commonly associated with snow and ice climbing (axes/crampons). These routes often are not climbable without said equipment, depending on small edges and (sometimes drilled)holes. In the UK 'Dry Tooling' is confined to venues agreed by consensus which have little or no interest to mainstream rock climbers.

'Mixed climbing'. The practice of ascending winter routes which may involve the use of rock features for progress AS WELL AS snow, ice and frozen turf. Hence 'mixed'. There are currently two main areas of contention; 1. The extent to which winter conditions could be said to prevail at the time of any ascent and 2. The ascent (particularly claims of first winter ascents) of established summer rock climbs where the likelihood of snow and ice and turf placements is small.
Skills/strengths developed whilst dry-tooling may be of benefit when applied to 'mixed climbing'. climber.

There is no widely established precedent in the UK of the ascent of established summer rock climbs in summer conditions using the skills etc of 'dry-tooling'.

Debate away!

In reply to Enty:
>> And the Dave Birkett who made a winter ascent of Trespasser Groove?!


Has his change of heart received the same publicity as his original ascent?

In reply to Toreador:

Doesn't seem that way - until now.

E

In reply to Andy Say:

...maybe not summer but there is in winter are we sure these routes are getting summer ascents? Bowfell Buttress was climbed in all seasons conditions from early on. non? I find the damage to such routes unsightly but accept it given the history; trashing established summer rock routes with no winter history I find very much more debatable in terms of ethics. Whatever, it is inevitable that crampon scaring will occur on mixed routes.

I think the way the bolts were removed from The Works and the silly nonsense that surrounded it, set a very bad precedent. If there were issues with the venue why wasn't this dealt with through the lakes access reps like adults?

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree. Destroying the fruits of hundreds of hours of labour is not a good way to voice your concerns. To then expect sensible dialogue from the people who's work you've just destroyed is ridiculous.

In reply to Offwidth:
Well the only time I've done Bowfell in full winter conditions was wearing big boots and stout mittens. So I guess that was an acceptable 'summer' ascent in winter. Not sure if there's a name for that? 'Dumb'?

But you are right - Bowfell is the Lakes equivalent of Tower Ridge; it's gone.

In reply to Offwidth:


It's been Dunne before! And that was similar in that it was a response to commercialism and potential access conflicts.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

"It's been Dunne before!" Really? I think its just started. Stupid with who knows what unintended consequencies if you ask me. As I said before, if there are problems discuss it like adults at the relevant BMC area meeting, don't form a joke secret activist organisation and publicise it. This wasn't a couple of bolted or retrobolted routes ffs, its a whole venue supposedly partly negotiated.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I am suspicious about the whole thing:

A big media outrage to promote the venue, which some of the protagonists stand to make money out of, others wishing to raise their media profile.

Call me cynical if you like but it looks like a few pals planned am media coup to benefit them all in one way or another.

Now, where did I leave my tin foil helmet?

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Even if that's true would you rather see dry tooling somewhere controlled like that venue or uncontrolled elsewhere, it's not going to stop is it?

If there were serious problems (these are still not specified that clearly), why couldn't the area meeting pronounce first, then activists quietly remove the bolts afterwards if the developers didn't listen?

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

I get the allusion. Was that the 'Association of British Sport Climbers' and the proposed outdoor comp routes?

Interesting what a little hot bed of controversy and strife that quiet, slaty corner of the Lakes is isn't it? Do you think the very recent dry tooling of a Hodge route has any connection to recent stuff at The Works...?

In reply to Offwidth:

The controlled venue is the way to go. I do not believe that venues like the works will encourage or discourage winter climbing. It is a different sport. I am quite happy that these venues have been developed, there is scope for a lot more like them.

In answer to your second question, it is profile, both of the venue and the activists on both "sides".

It is all suspicious; many of the drilled hooks were almost blown, re equipping is a good excuse to re drill them, I don't know how popular the planned coaching session was but the extra publicity will not harn the next one, an increase in funding for the lakes BF, raised profile for some of those who make a living out of such things in one way or another, even increased traffic on ukc. There are a lot of winners here.

I hope all the stolen quick-draws made there way back to their owners.... Chopping the bolts is one thing, but stealing everyone's quick-draws is just low.

In reply to Fraser:

Which begs the question, why do you repeatedly post in the manner you do? You've done yourself no favours.....'kiddo'.

Why do you have to change the subject constantly. Talk climbing not about me!

In reply to Offwidth:

Mick is referring to an incident in the 1980s when a certain Yorkshire based climber manufactured a line up a smooth wall in Cathedral Quarry for a competition. The route was stripped by a group of South Lakes climbers (who put their names to the action) and subsequently reascended by someone who has posted on this thread!

As for the photo of Botteril's Slab linked to by Kid Spatula - that is nowhere near dry tooling. There is a layer of moss down the corner of the slab that freezes up and is what is climbed in winter. The summer line is out by the arete. The upper pitches are the same.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:

>and subsequently reascended by someone who has posted on this thread!

Gosh, I didn't know that. What fun. Does history record which route this is?!

jcm

In reply to Andy Say:

I'd like to think not but it is possible that the stupid actions of Birkett and Stuart Wood at The Works has produced a ( equally stupid ) reaction isn't it ?

Well done everybody !

I hope you're all proud.

And for the record i'm not particularly pro dry tooling ( even in designated areas ) and definitely all for climbing Winter routes only in condition.

In reply to Frank the Husky: Well, as Offwidth says the real question is over which routes are acceptable to climb in winter and which aren't. That is fairly clearly defined in Wales in the recent guide but the situation in the Lakes seems far greyer and less clearly defined at the moment to me. Discussion is needed in my opinion.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

History does indeed have it in her memory banks.

Your clue: a classic 1953 film starring Jack Hawkins.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:

Hmm. Well, if my googling skills are up to the task, what use was an E4 6a route going to be in a climbing competition? Or was this a fairly low-grade climbing competition?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Probably chipped in haste. Could have been worse; the original venue for the comp. was Malham Cove.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I top roped it a week after. The upper slab was easy but I think they were wanting to do it through the overhangs too.

E

In reply to a lakeland climber:

We work hard in the BMC as volunteers to get access taken seriously on all sides and I think what happened may end up quite damaging as it seems on the face of it to bypass proper process for no good reason and in an highly public and unneccesarily manner. As such it may affect engagement in future between dry toolers and this and other local area access agendas.

I'm not saying that the Botteril's ascent is dry tooling but common mixed climbing of such routes does scratch the rock and history shows the moss won't last long if people push the edge of good conditions.

In reply to a lakeland climber:

So that tiny layer of ice and moss protects the rock? Please.

It's hypocritical, and it's dry tooling for all intents and purposes.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

Have you done the route summer and/or winter? There's no way anything but a delicate approach gets you up Botteril's in winter: you place your crampon points and apply pressure so that they bite, you can't kick at the ice/moss.

The top pitch is pretty much dry tooling but the main slab pitch is (very) thin ice climbing.

ALC

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Of course that's what birkett's presentation would have been mostly made up of. He is fighting his corner using the only point he can.

To be honest the guy has lost all his credibility, especially to the younger guys, maybe not so much to the older generation. Taking the action he did, is an absolute disgrace. He decided off his own back to vandalise a crag that was introducing people into dry tooling, but in an educating way.

It's a strange predicament this dry tooling and winter climbing lark, and one that is proving incredible difficult to solve. I really can't see a solution that's going to work. The small minority will without a doubt carry on dry tooling established routes. And winter climbing in the lakes will definitely only get more popular.

In reply to xplorer:

Well how many points does he need? There is only one point: we're trashing the crags, what can we do about it?

One of the reasons DB is such a legend (apart from onsighting E8 and that kinda stuff) is that he doesn't care too much about his credibility.

>a crag that was introducing people into dry tooling, but in an educating way.

Yeah, but it wasn't, was it? It was introducing them into drytooling in a look-it's-ok-to-dry-tool-1984 kind of way.

jcm

In reply to xplorer:


What? ALL of it? Dave Birkett has no credibility left?

That's a bit harsh if it's true. I think the younger guys you've been talking to might just be winding you up.

In reply to Andy Say:


That was where the comp was eventually held, but without fanfare, and with cakes as prizes. Some climbers did protest at Malham by taking JD's quickdraws out of The Groove which he was working at the time. Can't remember if he got hem back.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

On sighting e8 doesn't make you a climbing god. If I applied the same rule to dry tooling established routes you would see your arse. He is supposed to be setting the standard is he not? His actions haven't help at all, how can you not see that?

And it is ok to dry tool, who makes that you're decision? It's especially ok in a designated crag keeping people away from the trad crags.

Dry tooling will NOT get banned! Simple! So what is your solution to help raise awareness. You have none!

In reply to Andy Say:

Of course he has. When the news of the works vandalism broke on here, I was surprised at the amount of people completely disagreeing with the vandalism, now because its birkett the story has changed.

The older generation have let them selves down too. Showing any type of respect to birkett is completely out of the question, especially on the he has climbed e8 bandwagon. I presume most of the top younger climbers wouldn't want anything to do with him. Then again birkett has always been somewhat of a loner

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I wasn't at the meeting, and it's not clear from the minutes: did DB make any attempt to explain why *some people* might think that trashing a training venue is a more sensible way to stop people damaging mountain rock routes than, say, trying to reach a consensus on guidelines for winter conditions / ethics without getting everyone in a good mood with a spot of criminal damage first?

As it is it seems about as rational as vandalising Ratho to reduce the number of bolts getting placed in the highlands...

In reply to xplorer:


An easy enough hypothesis to test - get yourself down the St Govan's Inn when DB's in town and see whether the TYCs you mention are shunning him. You can even put your point to him in person, I dare say.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I you saying I should be scared of birkett. Haha give over.

I've noticed you have a real hate for dry tooling Jon, I've witnessed you agreeing with the vandalism when it happend. I'm also pretty certain you actually don't climb, this being strange seeing as you are a constant poster.

youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM&

In reply to xplorer:

No, not at all. He's a perfectly approachable chap. I'm just saying you can see whether your theory that top young climbers don't have any respect for him is correct by going and observing their interaction for yourself.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

And explorer will find that he's a million miles away from the truth.

E

In reply to Kid Spatula:

To be fair I got the impression at the Lakes Winter discussion held in Stavley DB fully admits this ascent was a mistake when he was new to winter climbing and following somebody elses lead on what was in or ont.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Hi Rick

Genuinely interested in what your thoughts are on the routes you guys put up on Scafell and Bowfell back in the day, and on The Crack on Gimmer. Would you change anything in hindsight? I'll probably be shot down in flames for saying this but I think at least one of todays main 'activists' was influenced in his early days by climbers who in the mid 90s were influenced by what you guys did. So is where we are now an evolution of what was started then or have we gone wrong somewhere along the line?

I genuinely want to climb Engineer Slab as a mixed route under 'proper' winter condition - haven't got round to it yet as I haven't been in the right place at the right time. I've not got on it as i thought it wasn't in when others have. Is this route still acceptable to DB, Woody and whoever they do or do not represent or not?

Hard to remember in these internet days how locally these things were passed on and discussed in the days when the Rock and Run new routes book was the most up to date source of information!

Huw

In reply to Frank the Husky: Ive never been interested in dry tooling but the more I read this the more I am coming to the conclusions that its enthusiasts are a bunch of small minded tossers!

In reply to xplorer:

Were you similarly surprised by the number of people who said - 'vandalism'? 'In a slate quarry that's been drilled for bolt pro and even drilled for placements?' and 'they've got a point...'?


You might do him the courtesy of a capital letter on his surname. A surname with quite a lot of credibility in the lakes.

All I can really say about this paragraph is you are talking crap. Respect should be paid to Dave Birkett for what he has done; full stop. 'Top young climbers' won't have anything to do with him? Get real! Which top young climbers are you talking about that have lost all respect for Dave Birkett?

Drop Caff an email to see what he thinks.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


Martin, why is that 'hilarious'? It's an issue we have constantly ducked as climbers; but the legality of bolting routes on land where there is no explicit permission from the landowner for that development IS an interesting one.

In reply to andyathome:

Give the spelling, grammar and anything else unrelated to the debate a wobble

But what are you going to do to stop dry tooling. That's the fundamental question, and one that no one cares to even try and answer.

These threads do nothing but give so called climbers a place to voice their opinions. They certainly won't help in solving the problem. And I'm not saying UKC forums don't solve every problem, they do help sometimes.

All Ethics are naturally going to have disagreements, but climbing ethics are another kettle of fish.

In reply to xplorer:

What? Are you an anti-dry tooler in disguise, if so, Viz style I claim my £5?

In reply to Offwidth:

I sit firmly on the fence if I'm honest.

These debates really do confuse me though. I'm not being offensive but a lot of the posters on this thread are the older generation of climbers, which surprises me. Very little posts seem to offer any reasonable, rational, open solutions.

I understand that the older generation have their own views of climbing as it used to be, and I completely respect that. This isn't an attack on you.

I just believe that the dry tooling debate needs a proper solution not opinionated views. Climbing has to move forward, as it always has. But that certainly doesn't mean in ten years everyone will be dry tooling.

There's literally millions of routes in the UK, and a playground for every type of climber.

In reply to andyathome:

I can't speak for the original poster, but my scepticism is based on the huge number of crags with little or nothing in the way of an access agreement. I see no reason for singling out the works here which to me suggests it is being used an excuse for this vandalism.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Do you mean the 1984 that DB attempted himself more than once in winter and couldn't do? As Mick says, ethics is only part of all this.

In reply to xplorer:

Now - though it confuses me - I agree with this post. I do not agree that its a generational thing, mind, it is more a 'mind-set' issue. There are those who look at the way that UK climbing has evolved and are content; there are those that would like to see a change in that evolution.

You shouldn't be surprised that older climbers have things to say - that's the way of the world and if you ignore residual wisdom you do it at your peril.
Is dry-tooling a way forward? Towards what exactly?

In reply to andyathome:

That's the can of worms in this case. What if you did ask, what do you think the answer would be?

Hello landowner (farmer or National Trust),

You've got a nice cave in that quarry you own. Do you mind if me and my friends drill holes in it with a power drill, place bolts all over it, and then drill and chip holes for our ice axes.

Then we will write about it, make videos of it, take pictures of it and publish all this on internet; on our blogs, on the websites of local climbing shops, and on UKClimbing.com (250,000 people a month visit UKC).

We'll also make a little guidebook for it and tell everyone where it is with a snappy map and directions.

We will also run commercial courses there for other climbers.

It will become popular, so we will put a port-potty next to the cave and maintain the path to the cave. The parking by your farm should be OK for visiting climbers.

What do you say?

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:


Set up a burger van, £1 a go on the porta potty and charge £2 less than the National Trust to park and i bet they'd go for it

In reply to andyathome:

However their claim that one of the reasons they chopped the gear was because "...The quarry in question is still ‘live’ there being 8 years left on the lease. Permission had not been sought from the quarry owner to place bolts..." is hilarious.

It's hilarious because these guys are using the lack of permission as a reason to go trash some bolts. Birkett et al have climbed at dozens of crags in their lifetime where there's no permission to climb yet they do it anyway...but suddenly now it's different and the landowner's permission must be sought? Yeah, right. It's a stunningly lame excuse for needless vandalism.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


I think that it is a reason to ask whether these bolts (etc!) should be there. 'Trash' is a deliberately emotive term , Martin.

>Birkett et al have climbed at dozens of crags in their lifetime where there's no permission to climb yet they do it anyway...but suddenly now it's different and the landowner's permission must be sought? Yeah, right. It's a stunningly lame excuse for needless vandalism.

I think there is a difference between going climbing on a crag and taking a drill to the rock, placing bolts and drilling holds...? If we are talking needless vandalism I know which side of the line I lie.

Do you believe that the very creation of The Works cannot be seen by some as an act of vandalism?

In reply to xplorer:

Why should it surprise you? Age brings experience. When I was 28 I'm pretty sure I was a tosser. In ten year's time, I'll look back at how I am now, and probably conclude that I was still a bit of a tosser.

Opinions backed up by years of relevant experience get more attention. Why? Because they're relevant to the issue at hand. When it comes to Lakeland climbing I'm a complete punter, so I'm not wading into this debate. After all, why should anybody listen to me? I'm leaving it for the people who have an opinion which is formed by real experience of the issues at hand.

In reply to andyathome:


Good point, I can't believe they were allowed to use explosives and heavy machinery to shift tons of rock out of a beautiful virgin hillside.

Oh, wait, you mean sticking in a few bolts and chipping a few holds in a place that previously held about as much interest for climbers as the Fens? Yeah, that's really awful.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I think it maybe one reason Martin.

There are other more significant reasons why they removed the bolts - what you call vandalism. You could also call the placing of bolts vandalism.

You have to be careful with the language you use.

Anyway, you appear to be interested in this, you did start the thread.

Why not talk to all the people involved? It's a great story.

I think the end result is there will be guidelines in place for winter climbing in the Lakes: being climbing it is up to the individual to follow those guidelines.

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

I say: "Great - but it's my land and I'm going to put in the car park and some toilets and a couple of picnic benches and I'll charge anyone that parks there a tenner."

In reply to xplorer:
I'll have a bash.
There has been a long history of climbing self regulating itself once arguments have been thrashed out and agreed by the majority. Bird bans at Pembroke and Gogarth are generally self policed and work really well. Almost no climbers climb during bird bans now and the few that do rightly get castigated for it. I can see the same peer group pressure being applied to winter climbing established quality rock routes especially in the Lakes. North Wales climbers have begun the process with the "White Guide" and the same process will hopefully be applied to the Lakes.

We will look back in 10 years time and wonder what all the fuss was about, the fact is that the majority of climbers don't want their summer rock routes damaged by winter tools and in the end the majority will shame the current protaginists into rethinking their activities. High profile spats like this will only accelerate that process.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

How many times have you witnessed dry toolers climbing?

Do you really believe you can stop winter ascents in the lakes?

Again you offer no solution, only reasons.....

In reply to Alun:

Are you for real, this subject isn't hard to get you're head around. You don't need masses of life and climbing experience to see how arrogant and ignorant this debate gets.

Again you offer no solution..... I'm not surprised

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

"I think the end result is there will be guidelines in place for winter climbing in the Lakes: being climbing it is up to the individual to follow those guidelines."

I'm I missing something here? Don't we already have "guidelines" for winter climbing?

That isn't going to solve anything. A certain very small minority will on the odd occasion gt their tools onto an established rock route.

What you need to realise is, not every climber use's UKC or has even heard about the BMC. Thinking otherwise is just naive. So inevitably damage will still happen.

The removing of the bolts and the subsequent aftermath on here, actually made me realise that there is quite abit of support for the works.

We consistantley see the same forum users, giving out the abuse to anyone who tries and defends the works or dry tooling in general. Offering no relevant or sensible debate. Grades, age, experiance it's all irrelevant. It's not the House of Parliament. Climbing isn't hard to get you're head around. Politics in climbing is getting a hell of a lot worse, with the older generation trying to stamp their authority.

Again I still see no solutions to the problem, this is because you can't police climbing. People even with education will do what they do......

In reply to xplorer:

Good Lord, what a fool you are. On every level.

You're right about one thing. If dry toilers in the main are anything like you, we have a serious problem.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Haha, come on Jon, what exactly are you not happy with. You simply will not enter a civilised debate. You constantly result to name calling.

In reply to xplorer:

Christ on a bike! I think you win the award for most words posted whilst adding so little to the debate.

I’m pretty disappointed with Dave Birkett et al’s actions here. I can’t see how their actions could ever be construed as going to help the situation. All it has done is alienate those that use the Works/Dry Toolers in general/mixed climbers looking for a training facility and made people less inclined to listen to what they have to say.

It’s especially disappointing if Dave B then put forward such a case/argument at the BMC Lakes meeting.

Xplorer, you keep saying you never see ‘dry-toolers’ at the crags. I believe the issue is more that the few winter ascents (in whatever conditions) classic lines are receiving is leaving a disproportionate amount of damage and this in not sustainable. Sop what do we do?

Harping on about dry-tooling is clouding the issue.

In reply to xplorer:


You are, literally, an idiot.

In reply to galpinos:

You know what they say about empty vessels...?

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

"Why not talk to all the people involved? It's a great story." More classic Mick.... what's the big secret?

Damage to winter climbing in the lakes seems to me to have no direct connection to this venue. I dry tooled on my Uni indoor wall for years (it wasnt allowed either... elf n safety you know ) and the skills got me out of trouble a few times on classic mixed winter routes. I've never had any urges to drytool on real rock.

Also how the hell do you vandalise a quarry that has no other use? If there are access issues that's for the area meet not a bunch of mates playing ethics police.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: haha - love it. That would make you the National Trust!

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:

Have UKC posted the news story about DB and Woody identifying themselves as the 'works bolt cutters' outside of the forums?

I will admit I struggle to read through all the comments posted on these threads so may well have missed it.

I only ask as the when the story initially broke it was widely reported on UKC with photos etc.

In reply to TAbbey: of course not!

In reply to xplorer:

Ah! Name calling.

Is that similar to calling someone "naïve" in a previous forum for suggesting that the bolt chopper could have been a prominent climber?

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Winter ethics aside my real dissapointment is that UKC haven't followed up the initial story with the facts about who was involved now its been disclosed. UKC have stated above that the story of those involved is so interesting it could be a mini series.... If its that interesting then why hasn't it been followed up?

It appears that now the bolt clippers have identified themselves, one of whom being a well known lakes climber, UKC have buried there heads in the sand? Doesn't present them as a balanced organisation representing the views of a community.

There are some interesting comments I've read through above, but I do find the idea that 'DB deserves respect, full stop' a little ridiculous and perhaps it's that idolisation by the climbing community that leads to individuals thinking they can take the law into there own hands.

FYI it appears the BMC have also not followed up there initial reports of the incident either...

In this case I am happy to be proved wrong.

Tom

In reply to TAbbey:

Don't you know that anyone who climbs harder stuff than you is always right?

In reply to TAbbey:


UKC is a commercial enterprise; don't confuse it with serious independent journalism.

The initial 'news' thread about this incident was tendentious; as was, for example, the recent 'Olympics' thread. What do you expect?

In reply to Rob Parsons:

To be fair that's the way of the world, there isn't much 'serious independent journalism' that is not 'tendentious'.

In reply to xplorer:

Brilliant, I like your style. You tell these clueless old punters.

In reply to TAbbey:

Yeah I think that's a very good point. A bit ridiculous considering the original vitriol towards it, to then be totally placated by revealing it was none other than Dave Birkett. Or maybe people are willing to talk less bravado knowing he's a hard northerner?

In my mind this is similar to him putting up the new route Once Upon a Time in the Southwest. James Pearson notably removed all the pegs from the walk of life before climbing it. Birkett rocks up and bangs in 4 new pegs on the route next to it.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=61461 - Despite the fact the BMC and local climbers are all in agreement of a No Fixed Gear ethic. Because f*ck it, I'm Dave Birkett?

Which considering his recent actions, seem a touch hypocritical to me.

Would be a touch disappointed with both UKC and the BMC if no one follows up on this because they're all too busy (to use the internet parlance of our times) nut hugging.

In reply to Kemics:


I thought James took the pegs out of Dyer Straits (which seems to have subsequently 'died' as a route http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=113056 )rather than Walk of Life.

And I think you'll find that Dyer's Lookout is a tad outside of the area discussed at that West Cornwall meeting.

Apart from that....good point.

In reply to Andy Say: Walk of Life is effectively a direct start to Dyer Straits, it does some hard stuff at the bottom then takes in most of the hard climbing on Dyer Straits.

In reply to Andy Say:

I double checked and in Pearson's blog it says "climb past this to join the original line of Dyer Straits (all 13 of the original pegs now removed)". So the pegs were on a line shared by both the routes. I'd say that counts =)

I also thought there was a general 'no new fixed gear' ethic on that part of the Atlantic coast. I might be wrong on that part. But given Pearson's actions in removing pegs it seems a little short sighted nonetheless.

In reply to Papillon:

To be honest I don't 'expect' very much but if UKC as a commercial organisation are creating/publishing news stories to drive people to there website for commercial gains I.e. advertising, promotion etc. then it's seems crazy that they would follow it up with a conclusion when further information becomes available.

Taken from UKC website
"Our aim is to bring our readers both the best of hillwalking, climbing and mountaineering from around the World and the best experience that Web technology can provide. We promise that:

We will give you the most up-to-date and most comprehensive information and news that we can, about everything to do with hillwalking, climbing and mountaineering from around the World."

Is this statement true?

In reply to TAbbey:


That's up to the operators of the site.


Use your own judgement.

The info on this site can be a useful resource, and I'm thankful for that. However, in terms of news, you get what they write.

As an example - and at the risk of flogging another dead horse - the use of the word 'unfortunately' in the article http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68090 written by the 'UKC Chief Editor' shows that you are definitely sometimes getting a particular point of view.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Absolutely!

Mick

If two prominent and influential local climbers have put their hands up to the Works vandalism, it does seem worthy of further UKC coverage, and I'm equally surprised that this has not appeared.

In reply to Tyler:

Bit unfair on idiots.

In reply to Jamie B: I was chatting to a mate the other day who offered another view on this story... "the thing is Tom, in the climbing world this is all really interesting and emotive, but actually in the real world... who really gives a shit!"

I suppose he's got a point really.

Tom

In reply to Sally Bustyerface:

Ah another non constructive poster.

If you have a view on the op, why don't you join in the debate?

In reply to xplorer:
You are proclimbnorthwest and I claim my £5.

In reply to TAbbey:

Climbers do, obviously. What's your point?

In reply to galpinos:

Then why haven't UKC as climbers shown any interest in following up the story outside of the forums?

Is it because actually the story just isn't that interesting?

In reply to Double Knee Bar:

Ah I'm another poster am I, hiding behind a fake account?

In reply to xplorer:

That seems to be the view of most people on here

In reply to Vince McNally:

Examples please vincent

In reply to xplorer:

Well thats what everyone at the AGM thought anyway

In reply to Vince McNally:

We had a vote!

In reply to Vince McNally:


God im bored.

In reply to Vince McNally:

I'm rather please with myself if I'm making groups have votes about my idenitity.

In reply to biscuit:

Nail on head. Bravo mr biscuit, now everyone else just needs to understand that.