UKC

Hi All

As anyone done the zmutt or know if there are any suitable places to bivy on the lower part of the ridge itself? possible just as ridge is gained coming from the Hornli?

Regards

Tommy

In reply to tscoobydoo: I wouldn't advise this. The icy slope that leads to the ridge from the glacier beneath the north face is better done early, when it will be firm. The route can and should be done in a day, which of course means you can go lighter. If you find yourself badly over time, use the Solvay hut on the descent.

In reply to tscoobydoo: The terrain across under the North face is very slabby and broken, not ideal for a bivi at all, apart from David's very valid point that it is not a good idea to be passing under the face in the afternoon.

It used to be possible (but very long), to get to the Zmuttgrat from the Schonbiel hut, but that is quite low and involves substantial further descent and re-ascent onto the Matterhorngletscher and up the other side. I am not sure if this is used as a route to approach the Zmutt ridge anymore.

There was at one stage a bivi hut on the ridge, but that was swept away by an avalanche. So as David says, do it in one day and go lighter.

P.S. it is not a good idea to do it when the mountain is too dry, as the West face is a long, steep disintegrating slope when it does not have enough snow to hold it together.

In reply to Simon4:

The Lonza bivvy hut that was avalanched was as far as I know in the same sort of area that was traditionally used as a bivvy site for the Zmutt before it became popular to approach from the Hornli. I'd imagine that the approach to it was probably improved in one way or another, to make it more popular and therefore going that way and bivvying there would probably still be a viable option.

The original 'puerile ticker' Wil Hurford told me a story about this. He'd come out to the alps for the summer (70s I'd imagine) with all his savings, which he kept in an old tobacco tin. One of his first routes was the Zmutt via said bivvy site. He duly climbed the Zmutt and down the Hornli, but when he got to the Hornli hut found that he'd lost the tin somewhere along the line. I think this discovery may well have cut his summer short - but it'd be like looking for a needle in a haystack to retrace his steps. The following year he was in the alps again and just on a whim thought he'd walk up to the bivvy site on an off day - where he found his tin, complete with the money just under a rock!

But I digress... there's absolutely no problem in doing the Zmutt in a day with a nice light sac from the Hornli. The approach across the glacier is easy and very quick. Much nicer than hauling a load of bivvy gear up it.

In reply to jon:


Alas. That must make me an unoriginal purile ticker.


A tale of British grit and incompetence expressed simultaneously and raised to the heroic! Makes you proud. Did he fall flat on his face on a banana skin and break his leg in Zermatt high street on his return?


But digressions are frequently the most interesting bit of the story.

In reply to jon: Why do you call him a puerile ticker? Purely a question not a criticism. Saw him a couple of years ago on the Penrith Wall looking pretty fit.

In reply to jcw:

You don't know the story, do you John? When Ken compiled Hard Rock he put that aid route on the Strone in to stop this < puerile ticking >. He was referring to people who just worked through lists simply with the aim of ticking all the routes. Wil, of course, is an enthusiastic ticker, par excellence, and it was indeed that route that stopped him in his tracks. Some time later Paul Williams and Wil did a new route in the pass: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3215

In reply to jon: Ah, that explains it. There is one list which does not seem to be on Uk lists, Ron James's North Wales. Pity, I could have had some fun with that. incidentally Simon and Tom did a couple of new routes after we saw you.

In reply to jcw:

You could make a Ron James ticklist on here. I've just made one for the Blodig 4000ers for fun - it needs a few more subscribers - go for it: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=668

In reply to tscoobydoo:
Thanks for all the advise guys, hoping to climb the ridge in a weekend hit from uk, so wanted to sleep low then do ridge and descend in one day to help with not being acclimatised, was hoping to go up early Friday then climb to ridge and spend rest of day relaxing and bivying before an early start on ridge itself, this will save a little time in morning having to cross nf and gain ridge.

By response though looks like a night in hornli is the best option.

Regards

Tommy

In reply to tscoobydoo:


Not very prudent Tommy.

Committing to the Zmutt when you think you may not be well acclimitised is a very questionable thing to do, as once you have crossed under the North face and started the steep rubbly slopes to get to the ice-crest, it will become increasingly hard to reverse if you DO find that altitude is taking a heavy toll. This will be even more true when you get onto the West face section, where you will be pretty much compelled to go over the summit of the Matterhorn to escape the situation, followed by the long and serious descent. Also, will you have any clue of the conditions on the mountain if coming direct from Britain?

I suggest it would be better to go for a route where if you start to get hit by altitude, you can just turn around and go back.

In reply to Simon4:

I will speaking to local guides office on conditions before I go anywhere near the mountain and this can be done from my office in the UK, I have climbed both the matterhorn and Eiger in a weekend before so I know my limits and what I am taking on with the altitude, I just wanted to know if anyone knows if there is a suitible place to bivy low on the ridge as Im yet to have visited this route.


Regards

Tommy

In reply to jon:


It is very possible.

You will recall that guidebook descriptions were pretty vague in those days, nothing like detailed pictures or websites like CampToCamp or this one where people could either provide records of recent ascents or aspirants could ask for advice from those who have recently done a given route.

Nonetheless, do you agree with the basic point that once you get committed to the Zmutt ridge, it is likely to both unpleasant and dangerous to reverse it?

(One can never say "impossible", as people have got down all sorts of stuff, but definitely contra-indicated)

In reply to tscoobydoo: OK Tommy, I was just making the point that for a quick snatched route where you are unsure about your suitability due to fitness or whatever, it may be better to go for one that you can just turn around and go home on if it all goes pear-shaped rather than one that can quite early on involve a point of no return.

In reply to Simon4:

I agree that a retreat from the route can be difficult but no harder than retreating from the frendo, walker or any other technical alpine route, Im pretty good with altitude (Touch wood) but understand your veiws on this and thoughts behind what you say, I dont plan on hanging around, hense to sleep low and climb fast to get up and over in a day, If it was an easy route i wouldnt want to do it. I have done the hornli in a weekend trip from uk and didnt find it to hard at all, same again with the eiger although i was a little pissed i dropped my haribos half way along the ridge.

we will make the decision on wheather we will commit or not once at the mountain on how we feel and conditions.

Once again all i wanted to know was if anyone knows of a good bivy spot, not advise wheather i should try the route or not.

Tommy

In reply to Simon4:

I very rarely use guidebooks in the alps for classic things like this. I find that detailed descriptions are pretty useless - if you miss just one little thing in the dark, you're stuffed for the rest of the route as you'll try to make every thing fit! The night before I did this route I talked to a Zermatt guide in the hut. He said, the thing to remember is to go as far right as you can across the glacier, to the point where you start to descend and only then go over the bergschrund and up to the rocky ridge (that I referred to). He added, whatever you do don't get involved with all that loose rubbly shit to the left...! He was right.

However, I'm not sure I agree about a point of no return - I can't think of any particular point on the route where retreat isn't an option. Obviously there comes a point where carrying on is going to be quicker than going down. But I'll agree with your basic thrust that it's not like turning around on the Hornli and just walking back down.

In reply to tscoobydoo: That's fine, as long as you know the score. Not for a moment saying people shouldn't make bold committing decisions, as long as they know that is what they are doing, that is what a lot of Alpine climbing is all about.

In reply to Simon4:

Thanks for all your advice guys...

Tommy

In reply to jon: That is rather reminiscent of the Pateyesque joke definitions :

Interesting route finding - you are on the wrong route
Challenging route finding - you are on the wrong crag
Difficult route finding - you are on the wrong mountain

Micro detail descriptions are almost certainly useless as they never seem to correspond, but photographs, especially recent good quality ones like your examples or those found in CampToCamp can be very helpful.

Yes he was quite right about the rubbly shit, it was deeply unpleasant and un-nerving. But then there were no internet that you could ask questions about people's actual experience of routes (or be told shite by those who are actually totally ignorant).

In reply to Simon4: I quite liked this http://rubrik.ch.msn.com/reportagen/zermatt.aspx
zoomable photos of matterhorn from several different angles. You can zoom in on the photo of hornli ridge and see climbers below the solvay hut, for example. Zmutt ridge is also there.

In reply to Simon4: Difficult route finding/wrong mountain. As in the Crewe book to the Dolomites. We were caught like that once in the Brenta.

In reply to jcw: Well if we are indulging in stories about route finding and the Zmutt ridge simultaneously ....

When I was on the traverse under the North face, just crossing an enormous crevasse of unguessed depths over what looked like quite a flimsy bridge, a Spaniard appeared from somewhere and joined me on the bridge. I was not over happy about this, particularly when he asked me :

"Is this the North face?"

Me : "Yes" (you stupid bastard, what else do you think it is?)

Sp : "The North face of the Matterhorn?"

Me : "Er, yesss"

Sp : "Are you sure it is the North face of the Matterhorn?"

(when something is asked often enough, you can start to doubt it, even when you are quite certain of it)

Me : "Well I think so, as far I know"

Sp : "So where is the route?"

Me : "Well our route goes over there" (pointing to the right above the crevasse)

Sp : (hand dives under his clothes, through innumerable layers, finally triumphantly coming up with a postcard of the Matterhorn, with some routes marked for tourist consumption, brandished under the already fading light of his inadequate head torch)

"So where does the route go?"

Me (by now exasperated and frightened, at 2 in the morning in pitch darkness on a 50 degree ice-slope above invisible depths, on a flimsy bridge over a large possibly vast crevasse in the intimate company of an apparent complete lunatic) : "Just above where it says 'come to sunny Zermatt!' Now piss off you Spanish headcase"

In reply to Simon4:

So did he do it?

In reply to Simon4 mate you just made my night, actually spat tea out giggling at this, things like that are what make amazing memory, did he find is route?

In reply to jon: No.

We met them in the Solvay hut on the descent, where they told us a sorry tale of having to make some sort of desperate escape onto the Hornli ridge because of all the stones. I thought "well I could have told you that lads - any fule know that you need good consolidated snow for the North face, while the mountain is quite dry".

Actually it was too dry for us as well - we had heard that dry conditions were good for the Zmutt, as the teeth would not be icy. They weren't, but there was no snow at all on the West face, consequently it was totally unstable, hence both slow and terrifying.

In reply to Simon4:
Fabulous story.

and

"Difficult route finding - you are on the wrong mountain"

So true. Been there. Done that. Embarrassing as hell. Luckily, a totally shared responsibility. We failed. Of course.

In reply to tscoobydoo: The thing is, it is quite difficult to recognise the Matterhorn, and there are various imposters. Nearby there is the Kleine Matterhorn, and in Wales there is Cnicht, the "Matterhorn of Snowdonia". Do not forget the Spitzkoppe, the "Matterhorn of Namibia". Most climbers planning to try the original arrive in Zermatt having never seen photos of it, and for some reason it is not pictured in any of the popular guidebooks, nor have I ever seen it in a magazine or coffee table book.

But seriously: as to conditions, you want plenty of snow on Carrel's Gallery, in which case (as previous threads here have repeatedly stated) it is an easy stroll. Dry it is apparently a nightmare (it was snowy when I did it).

In reply to davidoldfart:


Indeed. I was on my way up to the Kleine Matterhorn one morning in a crowded téléphérique when the American gentlemen next to me, after removing my ice axe from his thigh, struck up conversation with an opening gambit of:

"Say, 'there any glayshers around here?"

A bit later I noticed him pointing at the Matterhorn's pointy top and remarking to his wife:

"That's where we're headin' honey."

Easy mistake to make.

In reply to davidoldfart:

First time i see the matterhorn was in a film as a kid called "The third man on a mountain" the first ascent involved a struggle through a hole in the mountain. Searched every where for that hole, couldnt find it.

T

In reply to tscoobydoo: You must have been confused. You were watching a movie about the Naranjo de Bulnes, the Matterhorn of the Picos de Europa, and area renowned for its caves and holes through mountains.

In reply to davidoldfart:

Or Bowfell, the Matterhorn of the Lakes. That one has always amused me.

I too remember Third Man on the Mountain - Michael Rennie. Great film of its type. Some interesting belaying (and the odd sexist slant) here: youtube.com/watch?v=dRac_oINFeg&

In reply to jon: Don't forget the mighty Matterhorn of, err, Cheshire

http://ramblingrickers.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/cheshire-matterhorn.html

In reply to MG:

Number 62!

In reply to MG:
And there's the Matterhorn of the South (not to be confused with the imposter in New Zealand)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TableRockNC.JPG
Although this isn't the best picture. It really does look like the Matterhorn from the right angle. Trust me.

In reply to jon:

So that's how you do short roping!

In reply to davidoldfart:

Pretty sure its the matterhorn in the background...

http://www.orlandoparksnews.com/2011/11/disney-look-to-past-november-5-11.h...

In reply to pneame:

Yes, classic isn't it!
I found a Matterhorn in a park in Salt Lake City last year. Got a photo of me climbing it somewhere... http://www.panoramio.com/photo/70043887

In reply to MG:

I love the mindboggling description: 'a winding path back into the trees brought us to the base of the Cheshire Matterhorn ... The climb up to Shutlingslow Summit is difficult to say the least. The first mile is a steep gradient up a well-kept path, and then you reach a 45-degree gradient for the last scramble up a typical mountain staircase for a few hundred yards.'

I'm sure there are loads of people who have no idea that there is such a testing mountaineering challenge to be found in Cheshire. For those who might be put off, and wonder if the technicalities of that 45 degree face may be too much for them, there's a helpful tip:

'this is where the going gets tough - so tough that we prepared both mentally and physically with a flapjack. It's really the only way.'

In reply to jon:

Now thats awesome, i want that in my garden...

In reply to jon:
How cool! Do they have chocolate? Or is that banned as a stimulating substance?

In reply to davidoldfart: I think you mean that the Matterhorn is the Cnicht of Switzerland.

In reply to tscoobydoo: There is a Matterhorn Way in Las Vegas, I've just discovered. Since this great city also sports the Eiffel Tower and Caesar's Palace, maybe this street leads to the Matterhorn of Nevada. There is also a Matterhorn MOtel at Lake Tahoe.

In reply to tscoobydoo:
I only wanted to know if anyone knew of any bivy spots low on the ridge?? christ now I have at least 10 other matterhorns to try climb before my time..

In reply to tscoobydoo:


You think you've got problems? Have you any idea of how many new 4000 m peaks people are inventing?

A boulder sticking up on a flat ridge, in the most remote, boring, dangerous place in the Alps and some pedantic geologist is bound to proclaim it "a major new mountain of global significance".

And you have no idea of how strict the scrutineers are these days.

In reply to tscoobydoo: here's another - but shouldn't take too long to 'conquer'
http://bloc.chamarande.free.fr/pdf/Chamarande_Cervin.pdf

In reply to tscoobydoo: OK tscoobydoo, you've had to put up with a lot slightly tangential material here. I sympathise.

And also summarise: 1. Don't bivvy near the start. Leave early instead. 2. If you're at the Hornli Hut, get all your breakfast and daytime water sorted before you go to bed. You need to be away well before Horni parties, who will otherwise knock stones down on to you as you traverse beneath the north face, and you will probably be the only team doing the Zmutt. The wardens hate getting up earlier to make you tea and you can't drink the water in the taps: it's contaminated.

3. Only do the route if there's plenty of snow on Carrel's Gallery. Lots of other good things to do in Zermatt if it's not in condition. 4. Route finding over the teeth is tricky. In general, stay well down, on the right side of the crest. Then go back to the crest as soon as the teeth merge into the west face. The next 400m are a joy on good rock. 5. Be careful descending. The Hornli is very exposed, and it's fatally easy to wander too far to the right (facing out) and end up tumbling down the east face. Don't be scared to abseil when you feel it's wiser, either. There are lots of fixed belay stanchions.

It's a brilliant route.

In reply to Simon4:



Yep, bloody Aiguille Blanche, eh?

In reply to jon:

I suspect Simon now regards that as the epitome of a well-formed, worthy mountain.

In reply to davidoldfart:

Thanks for Info mate, Much appreciated, I know icicle are on the mountain allot and are kind enough to be giving me updates on conditions, I have done the hornli before and remember how loose it is and pretty much most of the descent, hopefully when im coming down it everyone else will have been and gone, prob still bivy but il do this around the hornli hut area. what time did you set off from the hut when you done it.

When i get back Il hopefully have news of success, and you never know i may bump into that crazy spanish guy searching for is route.

Tommy

In reply to MG:


At any rate an inexhaustible source of bragging rights - I don't have many of those, so those that do exist are in great need of having their significance vastly exaggerated and stories about them repeated endlessly till they bore the pants off every unfortunate listener - which does not normally take long. (i.e. the listeners who can't run fast enough to get away)

In reply to tscoobydoo: I think we left about 2.30 am. We were back down in time for dinner.

In reply to davidoldfart:

Thanks Mate...

In reply to jon:



Americans in the mountains - who could not love them?

I recall sitting outside (IIRC) the Couvercle hut, in a brief respite in a period of miserable weather that actually allowed us to go outside the hut, listening to an loud and very obvious American denounce the Alps as a miserable heap of rubble, topped by damp, dripping clouds that hid the summits and never shifted, which indeed, the dismal scene before us at that moment seemed to confirm. But gradually the clearance extended and the North face of the Grande Jorasses revealed itself in all its imposing and menacing glory.

.. "Aw gee" said our self-effacing trans-Atlantic visitor "whats that?"

.. "Its the North face of the Grande Jorasses" said someone.

Our American visitor, used to highly regulated, wardened, carefully controlled National parks in the land of the free and the wild, then asked :

.. "That's amazing. What permits do you need to climb that?"

From the back of the group, a strongly accented Northern English voice piped up, redolent of scorn and derision for so ludicrous a question :

.. "Permits lad? Tha puts on thy boots and goes!"

American (astounded by the wildly anarchic idea that in a wilderness, you just take your own decisions and risks rather than being protected from your own folly by G men and benevolent autocrats) :

.. "But suppose you're not good enough?"

(The Jorasses really did look menacing at this moment)

Northener (now more in pity than contempt, as one would address a backward, but still enthusiastic child, when it is necessary to explain the most obvious and elementary of facts) :

.. "Then tha dies lad!"

In reply to Simon4:
Must have been Whillans
?!

In reply to Simon4:


Awesome. And very true.....

In reply to pneame: I am not THAT old!

Someone of a similar style of grim realism though.

In reply to Simon4:
my apologies! - I must have been taking the 99 years on your profile overly literally

In reply to tscoobydoo:

Due to conditions and snowfall was unable to make an attempt on the ridge, after speaking to guides office they said no one had climbed the route since june.. was gonna try but forcast predicted bad weather saturday afternoon so played safe.

instead done a full traverse of the Breithorn, this was a pretty cool route, fairly easy and straight forward, felt tough not being acclimatised though.

weather got bad sat night/sunday and when left zermatt monday the snow line was pretty low on the mountains..

Just want to say thanks for all info received..

Tommy

In reply to tscoobydoo:

Yeah, the snow line is about 1500m here in Vallorcine. Shame about the Zmutt, but it's still there and so are you! I find it hard to believe it hasn't had an ascent since June - in fact I'd be tempted to say that was bollocks!

In reply to tscoobydoo: Never mind mate, big routes like that can often involve multiple failures before the final success (and it IS a big route, though not very technically hard).

Glad you got something worthwhile done anyway.

In reply to jon:

Agree mate, although they may have been talking about a guided ascent,

Thanks Simon.. yeah was still all in all a good weekend away, Breithorn traverse acheiving 3 4000m summits was a nice route and well worth it.

In reply to tscoobydoo:

Any comments on the Rimpfischorn Tommy?

John

In reply to tscoobydoo:


This is what you need: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=668 The thinking man's 4000ers ticklist. None of this 82 tops nonsense!

In reply to John Cuthbert:

Hi John, we didn't try this in the end as headed up to the Breithorn, looked good though, we was going to try this Sunday but the weather crapped out, the snowline dropped fairly low though Sunday afternoon/night.

Other than previously climbing the Matterhorn this is my only trip to this area..

Tommy

In reply to jon:


Thanks for setting that up. Enjoyed ticking it but at 12 summits over the last 23 years I think there's no point in me setting it up as a wish list!