/ Winter Trousers

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Nath - on 22 Oct 2013
Calling all Gear Gurus....

Time to upgrade the leg wear - rough budget £100, normally warn on their own unless its really minging then they will be paired with either thermals or goretex. But would much rather wear them on their own. Looking at using them for big winter days in the mountains and winter climbing so durability is a big factor.

I've looked at and tried on Rab Vapour Rise Guide and the Montane Terra thermostretch pant. Both fit me well enough

Any others I should be considering?
Any thoughts on the above two?

Cheers

Nath B
GridNorth - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: The Simond softshell trousers are very good and unexpensive. I own a pair of Rab Vapour Rise but if I'm honest I don't like them for ice climbing. They fit and feel wonderful and are breathable and windproof but if I press against the ice with my legs I get wet very quickly.
CurlyStevo - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:
I can save you some time and money here. A lot of UKC users including myself are using these:

http://www.simond.com/en/cat/Alpinism_clothing/prd/Pantalon_Alpinism_Man

They are great, water resistant, fairly wind proof (although the can be a bit drafty in very strong cold winds), bomb proof and £40 from decathlon. I kid you not but these are as good as any of the other offerings from other manufacturers at many times the price.
stevieweesaxs107 - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
in full agreement with the chaps above
Simond Breeks can't be beaten at that price whilst I dont use them myself
My Climbing pal has had a pair past 2 Years Bombproof nothing worse than Harpooning ur nice £300 Salopettes
girlymonkey - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: I'd also vote for the simond ones - great kit
cyberpunk - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: Could you tell me if theses will fit over a ski boot. Thanks
BnB - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: Hi Nath. How you doing?

In your shoes I'd be choosing between the Simond and the Montane Thermostretch, the specification of which I really like the look of. The sad part of me that tends to steer away from budget options would have me trying the Montane first but who am I to argue with so many?

Have you tried the Montane ones on? I do like the thought that you could potentially dispense with thermals and the hardshell outer. More free movement and a lighter pack sounds like a winning combination. You might make me green with envy next time I'm huffing and puffing up the Cuillin behind you.

But £40 is hard to argue with...
girlymonkey - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to cyberpunk: Mine just fit over ski boots, but mine are designed for a very mini woman. I guess they get wider as they become man sized! Decathalon have ski stuff, so you could always try them on with a pair of ski boots before buying to check
puppythedog on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: Totally agree, get two pairs of the simond ones and have a few beers with the change. Or one pair and a few nights with the change.

Decathlon link : http://www.decathlon.co.uk/mountaineering-trousers-id_8010075.html
puppythedog on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: Totally agree, get two pairs of the simond ones and have a few beers with the change. Or one pair and a few nights with the change.

Decathlon link : http://www.decathlon.co.uk/mountaineering-trousers-id_8010075.html
CurlyStevo - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to cyberpunk:
I did go skiing and I think they did just but you'll need to check to be sure
CurlyStevo - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to BnB:
I own 4 pairs of soft shell trousers some of which cost 3 times the price. These are the best at shedding water, keeping out the wind and are generally really good.

Nath93 - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to BnB: You've got the wrong Nath fella, i can't afford new winter trousers just now so going to need to deal with my half arsed Rab softshells for now, even though i wanted to get myself a nice new pair. Right now getting a pair of axes is higher on the list, i sold my Fly's back in June to get myself a pair of Tennies.

To the OP, i'd go with a mid weight pair of softshell trousers and layer them with leggings. Rab make pretty good gear so i'd look at their range other than the VR stuff. The Torque pant looks good, and comes in darker colours if you don't like the bright red one.
BnB - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath93: D'oh. Senior moment :-)
In reply to cyberpunk:
> Could you tell me if theses will fit over a ski boot. Thanks

They fit easily over my old school Scarpa T2 tele boots. Not sure about fatter freeride boots for example but probably. See the comment at the bottom of this http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.fi/2013/03/simond-alpinism-pants-review.html

cragtyke - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: I got some Outdoor Research Cirque trousers off sports Direct for £60 a while ago, looks like they've still got small and xl though. Not worn them in anger yet but they look and feel good.
Nath - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:

Cheers guys, will pop over to Decathalon to try some on, just hoping the local one (Coventry) has some in.

Nath B
iksander on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: Can't argue with Decathlon for the price, but if durability is your main criteria and you have the money I'd say go for Haglofs rugged mountain pants.
franksnb - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: slight hijack

has anyone any experince with these?

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/bionnassay-over-trousers-id_8241558.html
Siward on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to franksnb: I've been happy using my paramo Aspira trousers for a few years now. Bought used (cheaper) I find that I can just put them on and forget about leg wear for the rest of the day.
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BnB - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to iksander:
> (In reply to Nath) Can't argue with Decathlon for the price, but if durability is your main criteria and you have the money I'd say go for Haglofs rugged mountain pants.

I agree. I have a pair. They seem pretty bombproof having endured a full winter of crampon abuse. I don't find them the most stretchy but the more rigid fabric in the thigh and general quality of sewing give them a massively better cut and hang than the normal guide pants. You could wear them socially, even, dare I say it, on a date ;-)
In reply to BnB: My Haglöf troos are over ten years old and appear to be made of weave of bullet proof dyneema and diamonds because not much makes a mark on them, but having said that they're not my first choice of winter climbing trousers as they are nearly as stretchy as softshells, they take a bit of time to dry if they get wet and they don't have the soft inside that adds a little warmth. I have actually ice climbed in them a fair amount but normally only on short days when I know what the weather is going to be like.
NottsRich on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to BnB: I've got the Haglofs too and they're bombproof, even getting tangled up in spikes in a fall. I do tend to get a cold backside in them though, which I've never experienced with any other trousers. And yes, you can indeed wear them on a date when you get told that they're your smartest trousers and you can't wear what you were originally planning on wearing!
BnB - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to BnB) My Haglöf troos are over ten years old and appear to be made of weave of bullet proof dyneema and diamonds because not much makes a mark on them, but having said that they're not my first choice of winter climbing trousers as they are nearly as stretchy as softshells, they take a bit of time to dry if they get wet and they don't have the soft inside that adds a little warmth. I have actually ice climbed in them a fair amount but normally only on short days when I know what the weather is going to be like.

That chimes with my experience. Not quite stretchy enough for higher grades - so not a problem for me then ;-), lacking a thin fleece liner and tending to wet out in a deluge causing "raw thigh". The massive positive of never worrying about shredding £200 worth of Goretex Proshell or Polartec with my clumsy cramponing means I'm going to persevere with them for another season and get my money's worth. This time with thigh length thermals underneath to protect the thigh without restricting knee articulation. I've also renewed the DWR which used to work fine.
CurlyStevo - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to franksnb:
> (In reply to Nath) slight hijack
>
> has anyone any experince with these?
>
> http://www.decathlon.co.uk/bionnassay-over-trousers-id_8241558.html

They are membrane based, something I personally avoid in softshell.
Nath - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:

Looked online and Coventry don't have my size in store at the moment.

Might look at Haglof but I think they might be a bit over budget.

I can get the Rab for around £99 and the Montane for about £70.

Nath B
captain paranoia - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:

Besides the excellent Simond Alpinism trousers, you might also look at Decathlon's Quechua Forclaz 900 Warm trousers, currently on discount at £40. They're a similar fabric to the Simonds, but with a fluffier inner face, and they're a closer cut, and more 'trouser-like' than the Simonds, which are closer to a salopette.

Double, articulated knees, four zipped pockets, hip belt, shock-corded ankle adjustment. Decent stretch fabric. I'd have preferred a gusset crotch, but the stretch fabric will hopefully mean that isn't a problem.

I've only just picked up a pair so can't comment on longevity or real-world performance yet, but my kit spidey-sense tells me they'll be pretty good.
captain paranoia - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to captain paranoia:

p.s. as for the store not having them in, whilst checking to see if the men's were discounted to £30 like the women's, I got into a bit of a discussion with the guy in the store about how great they are, and he said, essentially "we don't really stock much climbing stuff". I tried to point out that they're also great for skiing, and how well regarded they are here, but didn't seem to get through.

So, if the price suddenly hikes to £99 and they get rolled out nationwide, it may be my fault...

They do online orders, you know... >;-)
CurlyStevo - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to captain paranoia: I guess you realise the 900's have a membrane in and its probably a fairly crap cheap one.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> its probably a fairly crap cheap one.

The more I read into membranes, the less I'm convinced that there are so many ways of making them, hence not so much of a performance range as price might suggest. There are other ePTFE membranes besides Goretex for example - I suspect the stuff Decathlon uses is actually perfectly good generic fabric that will be chemically rather similar to Powershield or Windstopper etc.

Wee Davie - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:

Simond Alpinism troosers. Total bargain.
CurlyStevo - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to TobyA:
Not done much research in that area, quickly googled this though (not looking to get in to a lengthy discussion here as its just not something I'm really that well read on)

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/breathability.pdf

My experience is there is massive difference between a breathable 10 quid pac a mac and Event, quite how you compare the stuff in between is another matter.

Dave Perry - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:
I bought a pair of the decathlon trousers last year following a similiar thread. For £39 you can't go wrong and they are well designed and warm and just as good as many of the ones I was looking at for two to three times as much money.
LP - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: The Montane thermo-stretch trousers are possibly the comfiest trousers I have tried on but the Simond ones make my bum look good. Really good. A no-brainer really.
Nath - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:
All good food for thought.

Might take a chance on the sizing of the Simond ones and order a pair online.

But the Montane do fit really well and only £25 more.

Nath B
nickh1964 - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath:
Also on the bargain side of things I got a pair of softshell trousers in a Hawkshead store a couple of years ago for about forty pounds, they have been excellent hard wearing and super value, not maybe what you want for winter climbing but i mention it as another cheap but good bit of hill kit.
captain paranoia - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I guess you realise the 900's have a membrane in and its probably a fairly crap cheap one.

The Forclaz 900 Warm trousers do not have a membrane; they're a pure nylon/elastane soft shell. I bought a pair last week...

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/forclaz-900-warm-trousers-id_8282495.html

I know Decathlon's names are repeated very similarly for different products, but not even the Winter trousers are membraned:

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/f900-l-winter-trousers-id_8189332.html

Sure you're not thinking of the Simond Alpinism 700 trousers?

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/alpinism-700-trousers-id_8100490.html

BTW, the Mark Verber article is about ten years old (but still useful). Event is now sold as an own-brand fabric, for instance, MHW use it as their Dry Q fabric.
CurlyStevo - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to captain paranoia:
Sorry I think I must have confused with the jacket:

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/forclaz-900-warm-softshell-id_8233901.html#avantages

I already own the Alpinism Pants, Man, but I think I'll take a look at the Forclaz 900 warm troos when I'm next in there.

Cheers,
Stevo

Bluebird - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to Nath: nice numbers on breathability - ePTFE storming ahead... and nice to see what I've been struggling with on Gore-tex. time for a new Gore-Tex Pro me thinks... :-D
BnB - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to Bluebird:
> (In reply to Nath) nice numbers on breathability - ePTFE storming ahead... and nice to see what I've been struggling with on Gore-tex. time for a new Gore-Tex Pro me thinks... :-D

It would be very interesting to see non-membrane softshells mapped on the same graph (see pdf mid thread). How much better than new Goretex Pro (ePTFE) would they perform? Undoubtedly better (at breathing), but by how much?
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In reply to BnB:
> How much better than new Goretex Pro (ePTFE) would they perform?

All goretex (and eVent and some others) are ePTFE. e just stands for expanded, if its not expanded it's not breathable, it's just frying pan liner.
BnB - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to BnB)
> [...]
>
> All goretex (and eVent and some others) are ePTFE. e just stands for expanded, if its not expanded it's not breathable, it's just frying pan liner.

Of course, but, as the PDF makes clear, all membranes are not the same. Goretex alone comes in at least 3 flavours currently. I'd just like to see some data comparing the breathability of, say, new Pro vs non-membrane softshell. We know who the winner is. But by how much?
CurlyStevo - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to BnB:

well I can compare against event and stretchy soft shells are A LOT more breathable it wouldnt be at all a close run thing.
BnB - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: And wearing no outer at all would be more breathable than a softshell. But that isn't what I'd call hard data. Or dry ;-)
captain paranoia - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

The Forclaz 900 Warm trousers are nice. Really comfortable, warm, wind resistant. So nice I went and ordered a grey pair today. And even the staff found their naming confusing; she nearly ordered a pair of Forclaz 900 Hiking trousers, which aren't the same thing... The only non-membraned jacket seems to be a lightweight soft shell thing.

I've been looking for a decent pair of soft shell troos for some time, but Schoeller Dryskin is damned expensive. And not actually that wind proof. The 900 Warm seem much more wind resistant, and the face fabric seems robust and fairly water repellent. Only time will tell how long that continues...

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