UKC

Anyone tried this? Obviously not a very good idea for trad, but might work for top- (aka bottom-) roping or sport(?)

In reply to humptydumpty:

What's wrong with using it for trad? Of course it can be used for lead belaying (obviously not in guide mode if that's what you mean?)

In reply to humptydumpty:

It's a fairly basic non-locking tube belay device with a bit of extra metal on one side. Why would you *not* use it for trad or indeed any other kind of belaying?

Neil

In reply to humptydumpty:

Yes, I bought one late in 2002 and tried it for lead belaying on trad in 2003

And in 2004
And in 2005
And in 2006
And in 2007
And in 2008
And in 2009
And in 2010
And in 2011
And in 2012
And in 2013

My leaders hardly ever fall off trad though, so I don't have a good statistical sample against which to rate its effectiveness as a trad lead belay device.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Thanks for the pedantry - I meant in guide mode!

In reply to humptydumpty:

And alternatively BD ATC-guide in guide mode.

In reply to humptydumpty: It wouldn't work for bottom roping. The angles are wrong.

Assuming you have some knowledge of how it works in guide mode here (although I'm guessing by this post you don't), when the climbers rope is weighted it wouldn't force the dead rope into the device as the pull on the climbers end would be upwards - the dead rope needs to be 'pushed' down into the teeth of the plate to assist with braking.

When you set it up at the top of the crag, and fall from the climber results in a downward pull on the climbers rope - 'pushing' the dead rope into the teeth of the device (which is what assists braking).

Hope this makes sense, if not I can knock up a diagram for you.

In reply to humptydumpty:

In guide mode it's suitable for belaying from the top of the crag/pitch. I can't see that you'd want to use it for much else in that mode, particularly paying out could be difficult when it's locked.

Neil

In reply to ianstevens:

Oh the irony.

I don't see why it wouldn't work when bottom roping, but you might struggle to lower the climber when they get to the top.

In reply to DaveR:

As for leading it would be a nightmare, giving out slack would not be easy!

In reply to ianstevens:

I have some knowledge - have used ATC-guide for both belaying seconds, and for ascending a rope. You can definitely use the device to autolock on a rope going upwards - attach the ring that's usually at the top (when bringing up a second) to your belay loop. I've also seen them suggested in this configuration for self-lead-belaying, when the rope would lock when going upwards from the device.

In reply to DaveR:

But safe, perhaps? Giving out slack when there's no tension on the rope shouldn't be too hard, should it? I'll have a go sometime.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Safe maybe, but I still think giving out slack would be a nightmare. Just from bringing up seconds I find it can be a bit of a faff to give them slack even when the rope isn't weighted. Give it a go, but I think it'll be more trouble than it's worth! Good luck

In reply to humptydumpty: wouldn't work for a climber above I don't think, even so, with the faff needed to lower a climber I can't see paying out slack quickly being particularly easy

In reply to humptydumpty:

This has been tested (by Jim Titt I think) and was found to be Pretty Dangerous - there are better ways if you don't have money for specialised gear!

In reply to humptydumpty: It's not just about being able to pay out slack I think there are also issues with regard to getting the right angles to be able lock off the plate in the event of a fall.

In reply to humptydumpty: do a web search for the reverso - there is a video clearly displaying a second being brought to the stance in guide mode. The pair then swing leads and the reverso is employed to belay the leader (not in guide mode).

Probably called 'Guide' mode because the guide would be leading all and belaying from the top - usually 2 seconds where it is really useful. Just a thought.

In reply to humptydumpty: Why would you want to - lowering would be very difficult. I'm sure it would work to lock off a toproper, but when they come back down again you'd have a problem...

In reply to mike kann: Furthermore, don't even consider leading on it. It is dangerous to do so as the plate is only designed for effectively a static fall. It has been shown to fail at 4kN which is a very average load for a leader fall. Don't do it. Now take yourself off and give yourself a stern talking to If you want an autolocker have a look at the click up. Really decent tool and just what you need.

In reply to mike kann:

Which bit has been known to fail at 4kN? The guide mode hole or the whole plate? I would rather hope not the latter.

Neil

In reply to humptydumpty: It is not designed for use in a bottom roping set-up so why would you even consider it? as for lead belaying - how do you intend to pay out the rope as, in guide mode, it is designed to prevent the rope from being pulled through in the direction you need to feed it.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

That's quite a negative way to think about things, isn't it?!



It prevents the rope from pulling through *when under tension*. This is definitely not an impossible idea, even if it may be both unsafe and fiddly.

In reply to mike kann:

Thanks for the thoughts, mike - hadn't considered the difference between static and dynamic forces in this case, so will definitely give myself that talking to.

Neil, I imagine the failure is due to the upper (live) rope pulling inside the dead rope and either locking up completely or suddenly unlocking.

For anyone wondering why I'd want to do this, I was really just interested because it seems practically quite simple, but as no one talks about it I suspected there were some major downsides. I can think of some extreme (and unlikely) situations where it might be the better option, although anything that stops the belayer holding the dead rope would probably also make it very difficult for him to pay out slack as well.

In reply to humptydumpty:

I cannot think of a single scenario where belaying a leader in guide mode on a reverso would be the better option.

In reply to Neil Williams: sorry missed this. Guide mode. jim Titt did some testing and found that it would go through a couple of failure modes at reasonably low loads and then lose holding power. I.e. if your second climbs above you on the belay, be very aware of what is going on, and if there is a situation inwhich a second could potentially load the belay heavily like a swinging fall, i.e. make sure you redirect loads onto gear if you intend to use guie mode or belay as standard. This was for atc guides and reversos. Others were not tested but I'd imagine they won't be any different.