UKC

I have just discovered that RAB's lifetime guarantee relates to the life of the product that I purchased and was not specified or stated on any of the marketing information or tags on the product.
I purchased a RAB Neutrino waterproof jacket and overtrousers in July 2007 both of which were very expensive and made from "EVENT" material.I have waterproofed them periodically as recommended, but they have been failing to keep me dry for at least the last two years and the jacket pockets and zip on the trousers have also failed.
So I sent them to RAB for repair and treatment only to be told that they have passed their useful life.
I will never purchase any RAB products again because of this as I will never know how long they are meant to be serviceable !

In reply to james may:

It's six years later. Just saying like. Six years.

In reply to james may:
You didn't seriously expect that item of clothing to be "serviceable" for the rest of your life, as opposed to a reasonable working life of the clothing, did you?

These guarantees are based on the amount of use, rather than absolute timescales. You are going to be struggling to find any manufacturer who will meet the unrealistic standards you appear to have set.

Lifetime warranty, is on the lifetime of the product. Isn't that a known fact? I think it's just expectation management. Warranty is on manufacturing defects, not wear and tear.

Why do people expect there expensive, high tech lightweight stuff last forever?

In reply to Scomuir:

Agreed. But I believe Zippo have such a life time service.

In reply to Scomuir:

So what is the point of giving a "life time guarantee" then? Could the life be 3 months in the mind of the seller, or a day? Real life time guarantees exist - on Snap-On spanners and other tools, for example, and they respect it - if the socket breaks even 20 years on they will replace it no questions asked.

That's a life time guarantee, it sound like RAB are just being economical with the truth, which is a pity as I was thinking of getting one. Personally it was on the basis of the product, I can't imagine how a duvet jacket can really be covered by a genuine life time guarantee, but if they really use the term they are being dishonest.

In reply to myth:

There are multiple brands which will support there products a lot more than 6 years; 25 years or even unlimited. They are generally made from metal. In some occasions from leather or wood. They generally heavy items with a far higher expected life time.

So a bit pointless in comparing a zippo with lightweight clothing.

In reply to Kid Spatula: Wow. Is it now common to expect high-end clothes to fail after 6 years? When I buy something from Mammut for instance I expect it to last 10 years at least, and I retire it only when it is torn. So far I am very happy, I even have a 40-yo down jacket from my father. OK I understand it is exceptional, but 6 years? That doesn't sound much to me.

In reply to Scomuir: "The RAB Quality Assurance commitment is your guarantee that only the very best materials and the best production processes go into manufacturing RAB equipment.
We have an in depth knowledge of the characteristics required to produce performance products and we will stand by this commitment.
RAB means quality and RAB means performance, we are convinced that you will get a lifetime of enjoyment from our products.We guarantee it. "

In reply to drolex:

I think it depends very much on what it is; waterproofs are probably one of the things where you can expect a somewhat limited life span.

I just binned a Patagonia shell that I bought I think in 1997. I've hardly worn it for ages, and when I lent it to a mate we realised he was getting covered in what looked like terrible dandruff. It turned out the PU coating that made it waterproof was breaking up and falling off the inside of the nylon, when you shook the jacket hard if was like snow falling. On the other hand I have a Patagonia snap-T fleece I bought in January 1992 and I still regularly wear it now - these days normally for garden or bike mechanic work (it's black so never looks dirty) - but it's still going strong.

In reply to drolex: I would have thought usage is more important measure of durability than age. If you wear your jacket once or twice a year then you'll get 40 years out of it with very little trouble. If you wear your jacket for 100 days per year then 4-6 years seems like a very reasonable lifetime.

In reply to james may: How much did you use the waterproofs?

In reply to TobyA: I cannot be certain but I would say around 30 times a year

In reply to remus: I am wearing my stuff quite regularly, light softshell easily 50 days a year for 10 years outdoors + almost every day between autumn and spring, gore-tex hardshell a lot less but over 16 years and in all sorts of conditions, but both are still nice. Maybe I am a sissy.

In reply to james may:

Haha. My rab jacket is 4 years old now and It is definately not far from end of life. Get a new one!

In reply to james may:
A jacket is not going to last forever so it should not be given a lifetime guarantee if the company os being honest. A guarantee for the product's 'lifetime' is surely utterly worthless since, almost by definition, if you need to send it back it has reached the end of its life - and with it the guarantee period too. sounds a bit slippery to me.

In reply to james may:
Karrimor used to offer lifetime guarantees on some of their rucsacs, but actually if you took any of their rucsacs back to their shop in Accrington they'd repair them free of charge

It's probably what killed the company !

In reply to james may:
How old are you James? If you buy this jacket when you are say 18, do you expect it to be covered by the guarantee when you are say 60? If you are older when you buy it, say in your fifties or sixties, would you expect these users to demand a discount, as there is likely to be less of a demand on the "lifetime" guarantee? Of course not.

It's common sense - to do with reasonable usage. You appear to have got in the region of 180 days use out of it - probably less than a couple of quid a day. Maybe you should have sent it back 2 years ago when the problem first arose, as the jacket would presumably have displayed a lot less wear at that point (which will be why the guarantee is not being honoured)?

In reply to james may:

So, over the course of 6 years you've probably worn it 180-200 times, at a cost per wear of somewhere in the region of £1.50-£2.

You probably pay more for parking each time you go out and certainly pay more for fuel - sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

OM

This thread was briefly frozen to replies but this has now been removed after discussion.

Alan

In reply to james may:

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that lifetime guarantees are the lifetime of the item and not your lifetime. I do feel however that most 'lifetime' guarantees are poorly worded and it's often not explicit that this is the case.

I can't see how this is Rab's fault however, as this is common across most companies offering guarantees. Basically unless the company is well known for a high level of service or they state outright, 10 years, 25 years, etc, then lifetime guarantees are utterly worthless.

In reply to james may:

I can understand your anger. That's like saying "we guarantee this product for as long as it lasts". No sh** Sherlock!

To be fair from the earlier post copied from rab web-site a purchaser could be forgiven for mis-interpretting it. Rab should thus reworded plainly.

To those saying with fabric kit its not possible to reasonably expect a lifetime guarantee, and i'd agree with certain products that it would be hard for the manufacturer to 'stand' such a offer, some manufacturers such as Therm-a-rest do...so its not a black-and-white situation.

Definately in a shades of grey situation what is a reasonable level of use for one person, is just getting worn-in to another.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

From the OP's post, he sent them to Rab for "repair and treatment", which is not something that you ordinarily send your products back to the original manufacturer for, you only send them back if they're faulty. Indeed the zip might have been broken, but if the jacket & trousers looked like they'd see a fair bit of wear then it's highly unlikely the manufacturer is going to repair it as it's deemed "fair wear and tear", especially after such a length of time.It's highly probably Rab's response was "we are not going to repair or replace these items FOC, but here is a quote for the repair".


Likewise, thermarest won't replace your NeoAir if you've punctured it 10 times through use, only if it had delaminated or the seams had come apart.

In reply to james may:

Where did you find that quote? Google doesn't come up with any hits for "The RAB Quality Assurance commitment". All I could find on their web site was:

"All our items are guaranteed for the life of the product [emphasis is mine] against failure in materials and/or workmanship to the original purchaser with proof of receipt. Materials include: zips, studs, fabrics, etc. and workmanship covers: seams and construction. Damage caused by fair wear and tear, neglect or misuse is not covered by any guarantee."

http://rab.uk.com/reference/warranty-and-repair/returns.html

I agree with those arguing that "the life of the product" is unclear. I imagine what they're trying to say is that they'll consider a warranty repair no matter how old the product is, but the age of the product will be taken in to account under the "fair wear and tear" exception.

In the case of the OP's garments, it's possible that Rab would have repaired the broken zips if they hadn't felt that the entire garment was basically worn out.

In reply to Kirsticles:


Rab do specifically offer such a service: http://rab.uk.com/reference/warranty-and-repair/repairs.html

In reply to Martin W:

Yes, I noted that in my post, they would have provided a quote...

In reply to TobyA:

I am near certain (from similar experience) that Patagonia would have replaced this. The reason their stuff is expensive - integrity costs.

In reply to Martin W: The quote is taken from RAB's quality assurance statement on their garment tags which is just one of several statements that that are intended to influence a potential purchaser into choosing to buy their products.

The garmants still look reasonably good so I was surprised that they were not prepared to repair the pockets and the trouser zip which only needed to be stitched back into place at the lower end.

The key issue is that although the fabric still looks good, it is no longer waterproof and that poses the question of how it compares to other comparable materials and whether or not the marketing messaging is over hyped.

In reply to Scomuir:

Then, like broadband providers shouldn't be allowed to advertise unlimited broadband that isn't, it shouldn't be allowed to advertise a lifetime warranty that isn't.

Not saying they don't as I haven't researched it. A "lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects" is of course quite reasonable, but having the "against manufacturing defects" bit in small print is sly (if they do, again I am speaking generally and have not researched this manufacturer's case).

Neil

In reply to james may:

If that is the actual wording, that is deliberately and inexcusably sly. The hidden implication is that you'll keep buying more when they wear out in order to get a lifetime of enjoyment, but that is not how it is worded.

Neil

In reply to mattrm:

Companies should not offer misleading, worthless guarantees. Regardless of whether others do or not.

Neil

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Indeed - I used a Karrimor Jaguar sack when I did the watershed in 1987. It had 80 consecutive days of hard (and probably over-stretched) use, after already having been used for normal Scottish hill stuff for several years. One of my sisters lived about five minutes' walk from the old Karrimor factory in Accrington, so I went along, invoked the "lifetime guarantee" and someone took it off me and said come back tomorrow. This I did, and they just gave me a new one.

A great - if too generous for its own good - company. I also at some stage picked up a set of Karrimor panniers from the factory seconds shop. I've never had any idea what was supposed to be wrong with them, and they've had 20-plus years of hard use and are still absolutely fine.

In reply to myth: As do Mag-lite. I have a mag-lite torch, which I use for work. Had it nearly 20 years. Due to the nature of my job, it has seen some very hard service, used for breaking windows and a variety of other things it was definitely not designed for

Several years ago I lost the thing. Thought it had gone forever then about 4 years after it went missing I had it returned to me, ( name and number etched on the side) sadly though it was in a terrible state, the rubber switch cover missing and the reflector badly corroded.

Called Mag up to see what the score was for replacement parts. No problem new parts in the post the very next day.

Torch still in daily use now.

In reply to james may: As has been stated above, 'lifetime warranty', meaning the expected lifetime of the product is quite normal. It therefore depends whether the product has failed before this.

Importantly your contract is with the retail, not with the manufacturer. If the retailer who sold you the jacket specified a lifetime which the product has failed to reach, and you have not abused the product, then the retailer is at fault for mis-selling you the product.

In reply to tjin:


No its not. Both companies claim a lifetime guarantee, one offers lifetime of product (whatever that means) the other offers a real lifetime guarantee. That's why they are being compared.

Personally I think it is silly to offer or claim to offer a lifetime guarantee on a lightweight high tech item of clothing, but I don't work for RAB, so that's not my call.

People can and do spend a lot of money on high tech clothing, so the offer of a lifetime guarantee could persuade someone in favour of buying that brand of item. I can completely see why someone may be miffed if it turns out it is not the case.

In reply to iksander: They don't do that model anymore and haven't for over a decade so it seems a bit much to expect a replacement!

In reply to TobyA:

I personally agree it's too much to expect, just as it's probably too much to expect to have genuinely unlimited broadband for a tenner a month.

This being the case, companies should not use sly wording. They should simply state what the guarantee or cap/fair use policy *actually is*.

Neil

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
But snap- on ratchet pawls wear out and although they can be replaced you will have to buy the bits.
The "lifetime guarantee" is a bit of a sales thing but when a seam on my ~2 year old rab jacket came apart they fixed it very swiftly.

In reply to james may:

Same with Halford Professional tools, break a spanner and it's replaced, wear out a ratchet and it's not.

In reply to Neil Williams: A friend of mine works for a retail chain and says OR offer an unbelievable guarantee on their products and will swap almost anything you send back. They call it the infinite guarantee. Example would be burning your sleeve on your stove = swapped or fixed etc.

In reply to TobyA:

I think Patagonia is an exception, would certainly have been worth a try as they have a great reputation for replacing defective gear, however old.

In reply to myth: yes i sent my zippo lighter back after 23yrs to have a new hinge pin replaced, no aurgement and they clean it re-wicked and lined it free of charge....................

In reply to TobyA:

Well, I was in the same situation with a 8 year old out of production stretch element jacket of unknown provenance that had lost its waterproofness and they gave me a £300 voucher to spend on whatever equivalent jacket I fancied from the current range. When they say "Iron Clad" guarantee, they mean it!

In reply to james may:

Ah right, I thought you had got it from the web somewhere. (In fact ScraggyGoat's posting suggested that was the case.)


True, but it isn't actually a warranty. If you read it carefully, it's a statement of why they think their stuff is as good as they know how to make it, which isn't at all the same thing. Also, at the end it says: "...we are convinced that you will get a lifetime of enjoyment from our products." Note: not "this product". I wouldn't be at all surprised if this wording was chosen very specifically!


Which could be used to argue that the garment was worn out ie it had reached the end of its life, so the zips weren't worth repairing.


Over-hyped marketing is one thing, failing to fulfil the terms of their actual warranty is rather different. I can see why you might feel that Rab's message is misleading in the one instance and not at all clear in the other. But on balance I think your thread title and OP may be a little more alarmist than is really justified.

Did you really buy the garments because you thought that if anything whatever went wrong with them, no matter how long you'd had them or how much you'd worn them, they would be repaired or replaced? I'm not sure I'd expect that of any garment - though there are clearly other posters on this thread who report that such experiences can be had with other manufacturers.

FWIW I've been disappointed by one Rab garment (one of the original Vapour Rise jackets, on which the fabric pilled and wore badly very quickly, although everyone else seems to have thought were excellent) but I'm satisfied enough with my Baltoro Alpine jacket and my Neutrino belay jacket.

In reply to james may: I was asked the question last week:

"How long is the lifetime guarantee? My lifetime or the products?"

I replied "whichever comes first"

In reply to james may: I found Gore, Goretex to have similar terms of around 4 years even if used infrequently. I think the breathability is obtained by a glueing type process which breaks down with time.
Lifetime is unrealistic but then they should not use the word lifetime.

In reply to james may:


The RAB Neutrino is a down jacket, and nothing like waterproof.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

That would explain it then

Case closed.

In reply to Jim C: It is a waterproof over jacket, not a Down jacket and it has the Neutrino tag on it.

>"... RAB means quality and RAB means performance, we are convinced that you will get a lifetime of enjoyment from our products.We guarantee it. "

For me, if that is truly on the tags, then their behaviour is unforgivable.

Yes, it would be silly to make a promise like that - so don't make it. Say 5 years, or 10 or 2 or whatever.

A shame as I have several RAB down products.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The original Karrimor 'Gold' life time guarantee did what it said, a 'Lifetime' guarantee.
This together with the quality materials and construction is why there are still plenty of the original 1970 and 1980 Karrimor and Berghaus rucksacks still going strong.
My last few expensive HiTec lightweight rucksacks have fallen to bits within a year or two at most.
I've recently managed to get some heavy duty thread so I'll get at least another decade of use out of my old resurrected Karrimor.
On a side note, the really weird thing is that the old well built rucksacks made with heavy duty materials are actually no heavier than the latest flimsy lightweight offerings now being sold!!!!

In reply to Martin W: I still own gear that is still serviceable and fit for purpose that I purchased a very long time before I bought the RAB gear and I believe many of those that have responded on the thread understand my concern

I did not expect this gear to last forever, but after a lifetime of buying and using performance clothing, my unfulfilled expectations in this instance seems to have many supporters.

In reply to james may:

Ok. I've never seen one of those. Got a link?

If you type Rab Neutrino into google images you get this:

http://tinyurl.com/m3bfvwz

And if you type neutrino into Rab's website, you get this:

http://tinyurl.com/kucsttg

I'm not doubting you, but it would be nice to know what you are talking about.

In reply to james may:

but after a lifetime of buying and using performance clothing

Is that a RAB lifetime or a James May lifetime?

In reply to james may:

What is interesting about this is to first avoid all subjective feelings & asses the probable legal interpretation in a small claims court of the FULL wording & any surrounding wording that preceads or follows the "Lifetime Garantee" statement.
James can you add any of the above, if any? I find it hard to understand why a manufacturer would exclusively state, in isolation to anything else, "Lifetime Garantee" & nothing else at all.

Can you clear that up?

In reply to Jonny2vests: It is also labelled as a Latok Alpine Jacket onthe RAB Neutrino labels that are on the garmants and came with them

In reply to MJ: That's my lifetime

In reply to Removed UserAvaunt: Apart from the full wording that I reproduced in an earlier post the product tag states "The RAB Neutrino range of clothing uses the most technocal modern fabrics and thoughtful design to create mountain clothing that is the lightest in it's class. Neutrino range clothing is used for mountaineering, backpacking and ski touring by activists who appreciate the weight saving achieved by these cutting edge designs."

GUARANTEE
"If a product fails due to defects in workmanship and/or materials we will replace the goods free of charge, or replace at our discretion. This Guarantee is in addition to your stautory rights"

In reply to james may:

Right. My wife uses one of them. Nice bit of kit. Rab zips suck though.

Quote - "and/or materials we will replace the goods free of charge, or replace at our discretion."

I think that in law the above is a limited lifetime garantee, it is limited to their discretion and not beyond, based on the wording which is - "the letter of the law" - in your case.

In reply to james may:

So what? What's the defect? You cannot seriously expect a wafer thin membrane to keep you dry indefinitely, nor for a manufacturer to waste their time repairing a jacket that's knackered.

Hold it up next to a new one and be honest about whether or not it has been exposed to reasonable wear and tear. Given that you've torn the zips, it's certainly not 'box fresh'.

In reply to nniff: As I stated earlier in the thread, the garments still look good and it is only the trouser zip that has failed at the bottom where it is secured and merely requires stitching. The issue is how long these purported top class garments be fit for purpose .

In reply to Removed UserAvaunt: Thanks for your interpretation, but I am not looking to enforce a legal position on the issue

In reply to nniff:


Probably not, but the question is whether RAB are being reasonable in referring to a "lifetime guarantee" in this case? As for what "lifetime" means this is obviously the lifetime of the buyer, if it is simply saying "it will last for the lifetime we think the garment should have and we will be the judge of how long this is at any moment that pleases us" then it is absolutely no guarantee at all

A better guarantee would either state the time, either in years or days or hours or if they really mean lifetime then that should mean just that.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


So we all start recording the hours of use our jackets have and how hard that usage is?


I've seen items guaranteed for their lifetime since I started climbing 20+ years ago so its not some new marketing ploy.

In reply to james may: I guess in these days of larger marketing budgets we get suckered into believing gear will perform in ways that in reality it doesn't. I expect to trash gear and also expect to replace it when it falls to pieces...

I have a Rab pertex pile jacket that has been used daily at work for over 10 years, the only complaint I have is that it isn't very good when you get weld spatter on it.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Me too. I'd far rather that manufacturers stick their necks out a bit and give an extended guarantee - not one that's limited to a year or two but to a reasonable lifetime for the product. Which is fine, until someone comes along and thinks that that means forever and starts bleating. At which point the manufacturer turns round and says 'Sod this, give 'em the statutory guarantee'.

I know which I'd rather have.

In reply to nniff: I think some clarity would be nice. I wonder how RAB make the assessment that an item sent to them is 'past it' and not worth repairing? This would be some useful information. What's to stop a manufacturer saying "that's so last year" and sending everything back? People need a reasonable idea of what to expect.

In reply to james may: Are you on top gear?

In reply to TobyA:

No, I doubt that such a scheme would be practical, which is why serious manufacturers of mass produced items where big money is concerned always chose to simply guarantee for a number of years, or in particular cases where this is measured routinely on kilometres of use for road vehicles or hours of use for tractors, cranes boat motors etc where a hour metre is fitted as standard. For washing machines etc they are never guaranteed for other than a number of years which takes no account of the usage. It's a practical problem.


I haven't seen this on clothing but I have on some rucksacks, Eastpack IIRC, and this was a school pack so they get rough use. The one in question lasted pretty well and when it fell to bits I didn't have the nerve to try and apply the guarantee, but anyway being France getting even a year's guarantee applied is uphill work - the retailer isn't responsible legally as in Britain.

To me a company which seems to be fairly serious like RAB is silly to use such an ambiguous term, it will only damage their reputation if they don't apply it rigorously. To admit that it is the manufacturer who can decide posteriously (if the word exists?) and on a case by case basis what the length of guarantee for its products is seems rather extravagant, to say the least. If they really believe they have a more resistant fabric, or better quality zips, for example, then they should just put a number of years as their guarantee and leave it at that, or if they wish to use the term "lifetime guarantee" they should be prepared to respect this literally.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


That would be suicide for the company

a) Someone who works in the jacket everyday may easily wear it out in a year

so

b) the state an 11 month guarantee on the jacket so as to take into account the above usage. The average punter (ie me) reads the guarantee, sees that it only gets 11 months, and thinks "stuff that".

Alternatively you go for the lifetime of the product, which is just that:

In daily, professional use the lifetime may be a year.

In occasional (10 weekends a year use) it may be 10 years.

That's why, when you return a product, they ask about it's usage and confirm this on inspection.

It's also up to the consumer to buy a product fit for use to avoid disappointment.

In reply to LakesWinter: I thought it was on me

In reply to TobyA:

For me it depends on the kind of waterproof it is. With my Mountain Equipment Goretex XCR 3 layer waterproof, I'll keep sending it back to be retaped and patched if need be, but hope to get ten years or so of use from it, a fairly decent amount, but I'd expect less from a thinner and less robust feeling eVent waterproof. I go by the feel of the product when it's in my hands.

In reply to james may: I don't see what the problem is here. You say you used it for 30 times a year for 6 years. If that isn't beyond the lifetime of an item, god knows what is. You have used it heavily for six years and seem to seek a free replacement/repair for the wear and tear you have voluntarily imposed on it. You have unrealistic expectations here.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Obviously? As a consumer, not a product manufacturere, I think a perfectly reasonable interpretation means the lifetime of the garment, not the lifetime of the user. If you really think Rab mean a 20 year old can buy it and expect it to last until he or she croaks it aged 90, you are (shock horror) deluded.

In reply to james may:

What do you expect Rab to do? If the material is worn then they can't repair it. Are they to replace it like a Tesco bag for life?

Most guarentees have clauses about fair wear and tear and only cover faulty workmanship or materials.

In reply to james may:

As an aside its not Rab you need to avoid but eVent. Way less durable than Goretex in my experience.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Real lifetime guarantees exist - various tool manufacturers as I've already mentioned. Snap-On sell by reps who go round companies using tools professionally and if you show them a broken tool the reps replace it on the spot, no quibbling because that's what their reputation is based on and justifies the high initial price. My father had a deep socket he'd bought just after WW2 in a US army sale and had used for years and eventually it split as it had been heavily used in a scrap yard. My brother who worked as a mechanic and used Snap-On tools at work noticed the brand name "Snap-On" under 40 years of grime and rust and so he thought he'd try see what the rep said next time he came round, fully expecting him to just laugh but he looked at it and without hesitation gave hime a new one on the spot, didn't even ask for proof of purchase.

That's a real "life time guarantee" and explains why you pay so much for top quality products. For the term to be used when it is the manufacturer who decides afterwards what a reasonable life time means is ridiculous and absolutely unmanageable legally - who's to say if my usage is reasonable or not in terms of duration? Obviously if the product is sliced or torn then this is not reasonable use but what reasonable wear and tear is is not something the manufacturer should decide unilaterally - it basically means the product is not guaranteed. Just because a lot of companies have copied the term from those who really respect them doesn't make it honest. The truth is giving a "lifetime guarantee" on a fragile product like a duvet is absurd, and fundamentally dishonest.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: The problem is understanding what to expect when you buy top price gear with a lifetime guarantee if the manufacturer has not qualified it with any other data or conditions. Many people will not share your view.

In reply to DaveHK: No but they either expect me to replace their products or do not care less about Brand loyalty which is odd for a company purporting to manufacture top end gear.

In reply to james may: I agree with you, it's the fact they have given this guarentee, which is the issue you have raised. It's obviously worthless.

In reply to james may: This is what it says on Rab's website:

"All our items are guaranteed for the life of the product against failure in materials and/or workmanship to the original purchaser with proof of receipt. Materials include: zips, studs, fabrics, etc. and workmanship covers: seams and construction. Damage caused by fair wear and tear, neglect or misuse is not covered by any guarantee."

It does not say anything like "all our items are guaranteed for the life of the product [full stop]". The use you describe over the years seems entirely in keeping with "damage caused by fair wear and tear" and after six years of use it is hard to be convincing that the reduced performance is to do with failure in materials/workmanship.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

This is my Latok Alpine waterproof hard shell. It also says Neutrino on it.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7848/30jw.jpg

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:


If this is what we are debating I wouldn't say it amounts to a simple lifetime guarantee, as in "guaranteed for life" on the label. It simply guarantees to replace anything which is due to bad fabrication or faults that were present in the article when sold or which developed because of such faults. Obviously there is a part of subjectivity and judgement involved which could lead to conflicts but it is not the sort of unconditional guarantee as I mentioned earlier for "hard" products.

From then on it's up to RAB to decide how far they are prepared to go in considering what is "fair wear and tear" and what is a fault in the product. Ultimately it could end up before a court in theory but it is unlikely to come to this given the price of the goods involved. On the other hand their attitude could make or break their reputation.

In reply to Milesy:

Thank you.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: What is relevant is what the sales tag labels state on the Garments that I purchased

Surely the lifetime guarantee is against manufacturing defects, rather than the garment wearing out? Rab have happily repaired some unravelling stitching on a jacket for me that was a few years old. There's no way I expect them to do anything about something that's clearly worn out and at the end of it's useful life!

In reply to james may:

James, I think you should check out the range of products by Beveridge and Bevan. I think they'll provide the kind of coverage you're after.

In reply to james may: You earlier said the label stated "If a product fails due to defects in workmanship and/or materials we will replace the goods free of charge, or replace at our discretion. This Guarantee is in addition to your stautory rights". Why do you think it failed due to a defect in workmanship and/or materials, as opposed to the extensive wear and tear you imposed on it?

In reply to highaltitudebarista: I do not think that your interpretation of the RAB product labelling can be construed precisely as you state "The RAB Quality Assurance commitment is your guarantee that only the very best materials and the best production processes go into manufacturing RAB equipment.
We have an in depth knowledge of the characteristics required to produce performance products and we will stand by this commitment.
RAB means quality and RAB means performance, we are convinced that you will get a lifetime of enjoyment from our products.We guarantee it. "

And as I stated previously the garments still look good and not obviously worn out or at the end of their useful life.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I can understand the comments from all those those that have a vested interest in supporting the RAB Brand, but their product label statement has to be called into question. "The RAB Quality Assurance commitment is your guarantee that only the very best materials and the best production processes go into manufacturing RAB equipment.
We have an in depth knowledge of the characteristics required to produce performance products and we will stand by this commitment.
RAB means quality and RAB means performance, we are convinced that you will get a lifetime of enjoyment from our products.We guarantee it. "

If I purchase a budget product then I realistically expect that it may not perform or have a serviceable life compared to high priced top end reputable Brands.

In reply to DaveHK: Thanks Dave,I will look into them.

In reply to james may: in place of a guarentee perhaps rab could state,buy one,get one free,later?

I used to work in an outdoor shop down south and we used to sell berghaus boots to the Royal Marines, they were the ones with the old attack sole and they loved them.
But as you can imagine the marines used to destroy a pair of boots within months, maybe a year at the top.

In this instance how does berghaus warranty them ? 6 months ? a year ? or the lifetime of the boots ?

The last seems the most sensible to me

In reply to dollydog: Seriously no, but they might consider implementing something that could encourage Brand loyalty ?

In reply to dollydog:

Seriously no, but they might consider implementing something that could encourage Brand loyalty ?

In reply to andyfla:

How do they warranty them?

In reply to james may:

James, perhaps to illustrate your point about your jacket not being at the end of it's life, could you link some pictures?

This is the disagreement, James thinks there's still life in his jacket, Rab does not.

In reply to DaveHK:

I think their warrantee policy under review.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Only 30 years on Eastpak these days as Lifetime open to interpretation

In reply to james may:

Yes, I agree. But if you'd worn a budget item for 30 days a year for 6 years, it would have lasted a lot less than the Rab one did.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I think the actual "disagreement" here is that James has unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of what a lifetime guarantee actually means.

In reply to Dan_S: What do you think the RAB statement on the garment tag means ? "The RAB Quality Assurance commitment is your guarantee that only the very best materials and the best production processes go into manufacturing RAB equipment.
We have an in depth knowledge of the characteristics required to produce performance products and we will stand by this commitment.
RAB means quality and RAB means performance, we are convinced that you will get a lifetime of enjoyment from our products.We guarantee it. "

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: Possibly,although as I previously stated, I still have serviceable gear that I purchased many years before I bought the RAB garments that was not top end and all I could afford at the time.

In reply to james may:

I think the contents of the tag are meaningless advertising gumpf implying that through the QA and product development RAB have done, your life will be enhanced through using their kit.

You're talking about kit made of lightweight materials designed to be used in a harsh enviroment. It would be ludicrous to assume that it would be guaranteed from failure for potentially decades.

Can we all chip in a quid each for a new jacket?

In reply to FreshSlate:
At the time it was lifetime, so a judgement was taken as to how knackered they were, in fairness to them they were extremely fair in replacing any boots we thought had failed prematurely

In reply to Milesy: Appreciate the thought, but that was never the objective.
Even in these days when people have much higher disposable incomes and may have become conditioned to everyday life lower standards ,is it worth questioning whether or not a major manufacturer of high end, top cost technical gear should market their products with sufficient and adequate information and data to enable potential purchasers to make meaningful comparative judgements ?

In reply to james may:

Have you questioned Rab themselves about this?

In reply to Dan_S: I doubt whether RAB would agree with your first two thoughts even though you seem to know that this kit is designed to be used in a harsh environment and I have not assumed that it should be guaranteed from failure for potentially decades.

In reply to Kirsticles: Yes, I have and despite the Moderator freezing the thread whilst he contacted RAB to enable them to respond,they have not done so.

In reply to james may:

As much as I like Rab I don't consider it "high end". With the help of go outdoors Rab gear is seen on plenty highstreet consumer, fishers, walkers, ramblers etc.

In reply to james may: Why on earth would you expect Rab to respond here? They've explained their case to you, getting involved in a public forum with someone they've already explained it to doesn't achieve anything for them.

In reply to Milesy: The cost of £315.00 in 2007 seemed like a high end price

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I did not expect them to but Alan James appeared to think that they might.

In reply to james may:

Give them a buzz on their customer service number. I am VERY suprised you've not had more from them.

As someone said above, you should post a picture of your jacket & trousers online so "we" can see and then make a mass descision, which seems to be the only way to resolve this.

Also, they normally quote for a repair if they will not carry it out FOC, how much did they quote you?

In reply to Milesy:

With the help of a lot of retailers, Berghaus gear was the choice of the scally when I was at school. Didn't stop it being pretty good back then.

Neil

Once apon a time in the 90s, I wore a berghaus jacket, drawstring at the waist pulled tight, and I tucked my tracksuit into white sport socks with reebok classics and wear a baseball cap pointing upwards, as was the Glasgow style.....

In reply to Dan_S:
>

Isn't this getting close to the crux of the matter- lightweight?
Every year it seems the clothing manufacturers are pushing ever more lightweight gear, selling it as some sort of advance advance on the previous year's garments. Hardshell sir? Well, this year you'll be glad to hear that it will weigh less than 400grams. Yes sir, that's two fifths of a bag of sugar. Of course it'll only last you a season but, hold it in your hands, it's like spiders silk to hold. Suits you sir.

To the vast majority of users such lightweight gear confers no benefit. The only folk who really need such light weight things are backpackers or climbers pushing the limits. Durability is an obvious loser when weight assumes such significance. I have absolutely no problem with a winter Hardshell weighing in at over a kilo, in fact I have one and it's still serving me well after 20 years (OK, not THAT regularly used these days!)

In reply to james may: But for titanium bicycle frames a 'lifetime' guarantee also only extends to the expected reasonable lifespan of the product, not the users lifespan. And titanium frames are rather tougher than goretex.

In reply to Dan_S:

James did complain in his O.P that he has no idea of how long Rab thinks an item of clothing is serviceable. Had james thought it was not worth repairing he wouldn't have sent it in to be repaired? I think James wants clarity in a guarantee so that we're aware of when it is acceptable to send gear back or not. At the moment, I have no clue. 1 year? 2? Just see if it bounces back?

In reply to Kirsticles: As many posters have understood this is not about getting RAB to replace the garments free of charge. I expected to pay for the repairs to the pockets where the taped fixing had failed and also for the trouser zip where the stitching had also failed as well as any re-waterproofing that they might be able to do. They decided that the garments were not worth repairing and that was the end of any dialogue. They could have used the instance to provide me with some data and information about the wear testing of the material and the life expectancy of the product, but there was nothing else forthcoming from them.It seemed that they could not care less if I purchased any more of their products and I feel that they have missed an opportunity to encourage user loyalty.

Is it not reasonable for us to expect to be valued as users, or is that what is regarded as the norm now ?

In reply to james may:

I understand what your original post was about, I was just asking you for more information. Sound familiar eh?
You seem to miss out a lot of questions in this thread and pick and choose the ones you want to answer. My points above had been asked before.

In reply to james may: You jacket is 6 years old, 4 of which it was waterproof. Yet you waited till a taped seam went. This suggests the jacket had been well used, if you thought its lifetime was short then why did you not complain 2 years ago. When it lost its waterproofness (is that a word).

If you want to pay for the repairs conact LSR who may help or point you in the right direction. http://www.lancashiresportsrepairs.co.uk/

However looking at Rabs section on their website, equip seem to have been a bit shit. From the Rab website "we'd much rather see your 20 year old jacket do another 20 years than see it go to landfill" They dont seem to have helped you out with that. I dont think 4-6 years is very good for a £300 jacket.

http://rab.uk.com/reference/warranty-and-repair/
http://rab.uk.com/reference/warranty-and-repair/repairs.html

In reply to itsThere: A photo of the damage would help

In reply to Kirsticles:

Also, they normally quote for a repair if they will not carry it out FOC, how much did they quote you?

If this is your specific question then the answer is that on their online repairs form they quote £21 for a zip repair and £10 for a stitch/seam repair.

In reply to itsThere:

As you know it is recommended to waterproof gear periodically and it may be some time before one discovers that it is required to be done again and sometimes we do not all do what should be done in a timely manner as various other things get in the way, thanks for the information on LSR.

From their published accounts it seems that RAB are laughing all the way to the bank at the moment and Equip is providing a large profit contribution.

In reply to james may:

Why do you imagine that anyone on the thread has a vested interest in supporting the Rab brand? Does anyone posting on this thread, to your certain knowledge, work for Rab or their parent company?

A number of posters have suggested that your expectations may have been a little unrealistic, and apparently that means that they have a "vested interest".

In reply to Martin W:

User profiles are revealing, Check it out

In reply to james may:

So it's not about the guarantee, despite that being exactly what you chose to "warn" us about in the thread title. You questioned what "lifetime" means in the context of a guarantee - but you're not actually looking to get a repair made under guarantee. So why bring it up?


Have you ever head the phrase "not economically repairable"?

eVent is still a membrane-based technology like Gore-tex, and if the face fabric is worn sufficiently for the membrane to have been compromised then no amount of topping-up of the DWR will make it properly waterproof again.


Why should they? If it's worn out, it's worn out. Logically, the life expectancy is only relevant if there is a suggestion that the garment has under performed ie if they were being asked to make good a warranty claim. But you say that's not what you were after. So why would it be relevant? By your own logic, you've found out the life expectancy of the garment by practical experiment: it's no more than six years of the kind of use you made of it.


I'd suggest that it's actually quite helpful of them to decline to attempt to repair something which is really only fit for the bin.

In reply to james may:


Don't be a tease, just say what you mean.

Nick is an ex-squaddie doctor, not really sure what vested interest you see there?

In reply to james may:

So now you're saying that Rab have responded to this thread, even though you previously said that they didn't?


Or, given that a large number of people have posted on this thread, why not point out who you mean? If the information is in their profile then it's public knowledge, save us some work here!


And the relevance of this is? You've said that you were willing to pay for the repairs. Presumably that would have made them laugh even harder. By declining to repair an worn-out garment, they're by no means assured of another sale.

You clearly feel aggrieved about something - although it's difficult to be sure precisely what, given the way that your arguments flounder about when people challenge your position.

In reply to TobyA: My best guess is that it is somehow tenuously connected with the fact that by chance I've today sold a Rab jacket on here. But why that is relevant is beyond me.

In reply to Martin W: The guarantee came into question when RAB declined to repair the garments and it does not take much imagination to identify various different ways they could have encouraged me to purchase any more of their products, but omitted to do so.

It would have made sense commercially for them to have a customer retention program,which perhaps will be of interest to their competitors.

I have been relieved to learn that many others support the notion that the consumer deserves to be properly valued.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Not necessarily but I can understand to some degree why you have supported RAB because of that.

In reply to Martin W:

Whom are you quoting because I have not said that.

If you are so determined to push your argument, you must do the research yourself.

Maybe Event USERS are renewing their gear every 4-6 years ?

I was content to post for the benefit of others, but you appear to be on the side of the manufacturer and not the users.

In reply to james may:


Be honest now, you posted because you were pissed off, not for anyone elses benefit.

In reply to james may: That is a very odd thing to say and I really think you are clutching at straws with that. I believe you know it too but are just refusing to acknowledge it. I'm not "supporting Rab" cos I was trying to sell a Rab item; I'm "supporting Rab" because in this matter you haven't got a leg to stand on as you wore the kit out to beyond its useful life but simply don't want to accept with hindsight that your expectations were too unrealistic to be met by a company who have no reason to sort out the kit that you wore to the point of failure.

In reply to DaveHK:

That as well

In reply to james may:


I pointed out faults in RAB gear I received brand new in UKC reviews, so am fully aware that no company makes perfect products in every way, this isn't a question of siding with users or the company; it's just people having different ideas of what to expect from a product.

In reply to james may:
I think that this could have been nipped in the bud if the retailer you bought it from was a bit more forthcoming with information.
I know back when I worked in outdoor retail (a few years ago mind) we used to explain the limitations of the goretex lifetime guarantee to save customer misconceptions, which you have fallen prey to, and to save us grief when the kit did fail.
Gore used to suggest the lifetime of their membrane was 88 days (iirc) i.e. 88 x 24hours which is a long time for an average user. If you use your gear regularly then that is achievable in a year or two.
I imagine that event and especially light event would be less than this, but that is speculation on my part.
The neutrino range, i have a primaloft neutrino smock, was designed as lightweight gear. It was not designed nor built for heavy usage. My primaloft is still in great nick as it lives in a pack rather than gets daily use, which Joe Brown were at pains to point out it would not deal with well due to the light fabrics.
My mate has owned a Rab Event jacket. It leaked after a year and they replaced it under guarantee. It was designed as a stay in the pack waterproof, not a workhorse and was used as such.
I agree that the use of the phrase "lifetime guarantee" is open to interpretation, especially when compared with the zippo / snap on / leatherman type ones, but it is common sense to realise that lightweight gear will have a shorter shelflife than the old bombproof kit.
My old berghaus vulcan lost its hipbelt on the pennine way after 20 years of hefty abuse, it was repaired free of charge by them under guarantee; my very lightweight phantom 37 is showing wear after 3 years and will likely need replacing in a gew more. I accept that as a sacrifice based on the choice of fabric and won't be pestering them when it does fail.
The retailer you sought advice from should have steered you towards the most appropriate fabric based on your proposed usage, I know we used to
If they didn't, maybe pick a better retailer in future. If you bought online, then maybe you would be best visiting a good shop and seeking advice first.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I disagree but supporting the Brand is your prerogative. Let's allow others to make up their own minds.

In reply to james may:


maybe im wrong but i read this as ... you'll love RAb so much you'll keep buying our and using our stuff till you pop your clogs.

if it said

"...lifetime of enjoyment from *THIS* product.We guarantee it. "

you'd have a stronger case.

personally thinks its advertising fluff but deliberately misleading/confusing/unclear...

In reply to james may: Mate, have a think about this....why would I "support" Rab by stating that gear has a natural shelf life through wear and tear that customers need to accept then also try to sell a Rab item if there was any link whatsoever between my responses to your thread and me selling a Rab item??? You really think the two are connected????

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

What you do and why is your own affair. As I said let others make their own minds up. I cannot help it if many others do not share your views.

In reply to james may: So go on then, tell me, what is my vested interest in Rab? I'm staggered you cannot see there is no connection: if they were connected, supporting Rab (your words) would undermine my selling position. Why would I do that?

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I have no interest in disavowing you on your views. I fail to see why you do not realise that.

In reply to james may: You've had a jacket for 8 years, and its worn out through use and not any fault of the manufacturer. Buy a new one.

Have a lifetime of enjoyment with rab gear, you've had eight years and it must have been your favourite jacket right up until the end. otherwise you would be so upset about it. So RAB obviously created a good product one which you would like to have forever. But nothing lasts forever, It reads to me that the garment was guaranteed for its life in reference to manufacturing defects. Which it sounds like they inspected and found none. I lost a 9 month old DMM cam this way it was sad but I had abused it. Normally they repair and replace. But its failings were my fault.

Your jacket didn't last you never expected it to but was hoping for a new jacket every time you had worn it out. This to me seems unrealistic to expect a company to make money(yes that is there goal) and to expect them to give you a life supply of jackets or replace them as long as they can. I'm sure if they looked at the jacket and thought oh we can stitch that and re attach that, then you'd have a fresh one. But if they looked and thought going to have to bin that then they probably did.

So have a lifetime enjoying rab products or change to another brand. but don't complain because losing the old jacket felt like losing a friend. you'll get over it

In reply to james may:This link may be of some assistance to readers

http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/rainwear-how-it-works.html

In reply to those above: I think we have established three things:

First, Rab need to reword their guarantee to make it explicit what lifetime refers to.

Second, they probably should communicate the reason for their decisions better (although its probably unusual for someone to want scientific reports as to wear cycles etc).

Third, some people in this world have developed a sense of entitlement that is outstripping their common sense, such that threads like this - which aside from the wording of the guarantee - are more or less arguments about the l'Oreal defence - "because I'm worth it" [...as a customer].

Given that neutrinos have no measurable mass I'm guessing the jacket might major on thinness rather than durability. Or possibly the ability to pass through solid matter without attenuation, I don't know...

b