UKC

If you do, do you back it up?
If so, what with?

Cheers,
Dave

In reply to Dave Heaton:
Sometimes. Modified Grigri.

In reply to Dave Heaton:

I top rope on a Shunt. I wouldnt call what i do working a route.

Ive never Backed it up with anything. I just weight bottom of rope with ruckSack, keep Shunt above waist level whenever Possible, avoid overHangs and Traversing.

Couple of Times i have felt iffy with it, ive just popped a quick overhand Knot Below me. Never had it slip Though.

I do Know petzl now dont Suggest Shunt is used for self Belay anymore mind.

In reply to Dave Heaton: I think Dave MacLeod has a PDF on the subject that's downloadable from his website.

In reply to Dave Heaton:

Micro traxion. BUd with a clove hitch on second line.
Belts n braces.

Not into shunts. Have used them a lot for other stuff but never 100% on them

In reply to Dave Heaton:

I'd do what Choss does. It's worth hitching a sling over your shoulders and clipping both ends back into the krab that's attached to the shunt. This just keeps the shunt as high as possible and prevents slack in the system. HTH.

Tom

In reply to Choss:

What wrong with overhangs? (microtraxion / 2ndlatestgen basic user)

In reply to needvert:

Can cause a Shunt to fail Apparently. Dont Know why? I just avoid them.

In reply to Tom Last: If you make the sling a length of bungee cord it's even more effective.

In reply to needvert:
What wrong with overhangs?

Well I had one slip on me when I was using it up a tree and I took a little swing and the shunt got squeezed between me and a large branch, so perhaps it is due to the risk of hitting the rock when falling off an overhang. I tend to use a grigri for tree abuse now.

Shunt...61USD. Microtraxion...85USD. Extra 24 dollars and you get a great pulley, a workable ascender and a (more) reliable self belay device.

If I had to use a shunt I'd back it up with a microtraxion on another strand, though I'd not feel all that great about the shunt reliability.

In reply to Dave Heaton: microtraxion for me. If I'm top roping around I just use that on its own. I accept the risks of the cam being locked in etc

If I'm working a route I use two lines via an alpine butterfly at the anchor, one with the micro traxion and the other with a grigri (non modified, grigri v1). This means I can descend quickly to try the move again without ever having to take myself totally out of the system.

I've also used the grigri for general top roping, I prefer the microtraxion but it's certainly useable.

In reply to Dave Heaton:

Two good links here:

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/product-experience/self-belay-solo-climbing...

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=f49f86db-42af-464...

Also there are 100s of threads on the forums about shunting / self belay.

In reply to Dave Heaton: Usually just a knot in the rope at various intervals

In reply to Dave Heaton:

Thanks for the advice guys, much appreciated.

In reply to Dave Heaton:

whatever system you use, get used to slumping on it, with an Underhand Knot between you and the ground if youre Concerned. Gives you more Confidence when you peel for reel.

EveryTime ive got a Free Hand i Just check device is high as it can be. And watch for device catching on Projections on the rock.

And dont forget to weight rope Just off ground with a bag with stuff in.

Hope that helps.

In reply to Dave Heaton: Some great ideas on here and I especially like the idea of a knot in the rope to stop you decking if all else fails. The problem I foresee with that is, if the line has been weighted with a bag to facilitate pulling up the shunt, how is it possible to then make knots in the rope? Am I missing something?

In reply to leeoftroy:

The weight doesnt need to be very Heavy. Shunt moves Pretty Freely with slight load Below. Light enough to put a quick overhand Knot no worries.

In reply to leeoftroy:



In my view, essential.



The weight doesn't need to be massive, say a sac with your boots and a couple of other things in it. The rope will be taut but you can still pull it up to make further knots.

If you're trying to work hard moves, you really don't want to be worrying about a possible long fall. A dirty great knot a few feet below will feel as comforting as a bolt.

Experiment with the weight and you'll get a feel for it - not too light, not too heavy. But (to repeat) the knot to stop you decking is, in my view, essential.

Mick

In reply to Choss:

Sorry, for some reason (probably encroaching senility!) didn't realise you'd answered his question.

Mick

So....If the shunt fails to grab and hits the backup knot, does the shunt stay on the rope? How far between backup knots (and what thickness rope) before it doesn't?

In reply to needvert:

Near impossible for Shunt to come off the rope or fit over an overhand Knot.

Distance between Knots up to you.

I got caught out with a single shunt when I wanted to descend - it was awkward with my weight on the rope. You may want to plan a means of extraction before you start.

In reply to wme:

couple of Loops of rope Round foot with Knee Bent. Stand up, shunt unlocks.

In reply to Choss:

Choss, you're the king of shunting!

< To the others >

Please experiment in fairly innocuous environments. Overhanging routes at your limit on remote sea-cliffs are probably not a good idea at first.

And (to be terminally boring) don't forget the knot(s).

Mick

In reply to Choss:

Thanks Choss! I've been using my shunt for years, and I've read numerous threads, but have never read of this easy way to take the weight off the shunt. Much much easier than using a prusik....

In reply to Andy Hemsted:

Youre welcome.

when you get the Hang of Using one foot Friction with your Shunt, you can move up or down the rope really easily mid Pitch if you come off.

In reply to Choss:

While the circumstances of the test would be unlikely to happen climbing (1m dynamic rope cows tail, 200kg climber, semistatic rope) it is interesting it came off the rope at only a 3.6kN impact force when it hit the knot. [1]

Sadly I can't find much information on the effectiveness of backup knots, other than some tests Petzl eludes to in [2] which has a 2m fall before hitting the knot with an 11mm dynamic rope will be greater than 4kN, the devices they tested (micro,minitrax,ascension) always held though were at times damaged in some variances of the test. No mention of testing the shunt. They conclude the section with:
Petzl does not recommend this solution as its effectiveness is uncertain.

On a side note, one set of tests [3] found a significant difference in shunt performance between 11mm and 10.5mm ropes

One wanders how things are with a 9.5mm dynamic rope, I imagine we'd have significantly longer sliding distances.

If only I had a testing tower



[1] http://www.irata.org/pdf%20downloads/Spanset%20%20workshop%20Results.pdf
[2] http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/product-experience/self-belay-solo-climbing...
[3] http://www.irata.org/pdf%20downloads/Back-up%20system%20Testing%20J%20Holan...

In reply to needvert:

But you Clip Shunt direct to belay Loop, and Preferably a chest sling to keep device above waist height, so any peel is a slump rather than a plummet.

Nobody in their right mind would Use a dynamic 1 Metre cows tail?

In reply to Choss:

In order for the backup knots to come into play you have to be doing a bit of plummeting.

At least with ascension, when you're plummeting you can generate forces in excess of 4kN when you hit that backup knot.

In at least one (unrelated) test, a shunt came off a rope at less than 4kN.

Now...There's a lot of if's and maybes. Hence my curiosity in the effectiveness of the backup knot.

(The interesting thing about backups is they so rarely come into play that one can often last a very long time before finding out the backup is ineffective.)

In reply to needvert:

must be me then, but im still struggling to Envisage ropes jumping out of a Shunt if Used correctly?

Slipping yes, hence Knots, jumping out, i just dont see it.

Just Use whatever you are comfortable with.

I think a lot of these sort of tests just dont simulate real Situations.

In reply to Choss:
When I did a lot of shunting I generally used two ropes and used a quickdraw with 2 screwgates to link one rope to the belay loop. Then when you tied a knot in both ropes the quickdraw would provide further backup.

In reply to harold walmsley:

But can you imagine how a 10mm rope Could actually jump out of the Shunt?

I cant?

In reply to leeoftroy:


If almost all else fails, be really vigilant for the rope rubbing on stuff if you're repeatedly taking falls on it, your knots wont help you if you rub through your rope. Having a back up on a second rope that doesn't get weighted when you fall on the first stops you decking if all else fails.

In reply to Dave Heaton:

I used to do it a lot, with no backup and I did use it on small overhangs, which did once result in me taking out my shoelace to use as a prussik to free the thing so I could ab back to the ground once I'd put a sticht plate on the rope. I tried weighing the bottom once but didn't like the draggy feel so instead I always just pulled the rope through manually after each move. I frequently dumped onto it after failing on moves that were too hard. In hindsight, probably none of this was best practice, but it did improve my climbing very effectively.

In reply to Choss:


bear in mind the shunt is sold as a canyoning/work/rescue tool so is primarily tested as such. In which case the cowstail is standard as part of the system.

As it goes the soloist IS reconmended for TR and lead soloing. The peace of mind is worth the extra cash.

In reply to Dave Heaton:
have never felt the need to backup a shunt,just dont grab it in a panic

In reply to cliff shasby:


very poor advice and an irresponsible statement


better advice

In reply to Rick Graham:
A matter of opinion,ive climbed hundreds of hours on a shunt which includes lots of falls and ive never had it slip once,so regardless of what anyone says /thinks...my personal opinion/experience is its safe enough..

In reply to Mick Ward: hehe,this was 8 or 9 years ago using a gri gri and why i bought a shunt in the first place..