UKC

Just curious really... what snow protection does everyone use? Just buried axes or specialist bits of kit such as deadmen and stakes? Just belays or runners too (eg. before a cornice).

Being more of a ridge/mixed aficionado, I've never done a snow gully over grade II so haven't much experience with snow pro. Party because I prefer that type of climbing but also my avalanche awareness needs improving. Though I plan to try more gullies this year.

In reply to crayefish:

If it's just snow and not ice, there's not all that much you can do that's really trustworthy. "Don't fall, especially not on lead" would be the Top Tip. Deadmen will shoot out even if you place them carefully, if the snow isn't the right consistency. Same with stakes. Body belays aren't too wonderful either. Sometimes the right thing to do is shorten the pitch-length to shorten the potential fall-length. Sometimes the right thing to do is climb the hell out of there as soon as you can. And sometimes the right thing to do is not go there in the first place...

Myself, I'm always happier with an ice placement than a snow one, and happier still if I can get something in the rock.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
Depending on conditions I carry T-shaped snow stakes with a long steel wire loop fixed to the middle. Under the right snow conditions such stakes can be hammered in and resist being pulled out up to loads that snap the stake. Never tried a deadman in earnest, I could never trust myself that I had placed it safely (so that it is pulled down into the snowpack under load rather than flipping out).

CB

In reply to crayefish: in my experience u can still find rock pro in most gullies or the odd peg or screw. U just have 2 dig 2 find it sometimes.

If there was only snow, ie after a good look for other pro, I would go for a buried axe + bucket seat or if I'd topped out I would maybe go for a snow bollard. I have used a stomper belay where u plunge the axe vertical, attach a krab to the axe head and run the rope thru 2 a body belay, u need a good stance for this.

I have tried deadmen and find them hard to place reliably plus it's a large bulky item which only has one use, so prefer not to carry them.

HTH Davey

In reply to crayefish:

All the above snow belay techniques have their place IMHO. While it is not currently fashionable to carry a deadmen, in their defence, I can tell you that on a winter skills course on the Ben, decades ago, we placed them in various snow pack types and six of us couldn't pull any of them out as they only buried themselves in deeper. If you know what you are doing they are valuable. And, no, I haven't carried one for years....

In reply to gilliesp:

I carry deadmen for stuff like late season neve climbing on the Ben, much faster to set up than buried axe belays and I read something recently suggesting they are stronger too.

In reply to Tim Chappell:


There's no reason why a deadman should "shoot out" if placed properly. They may pull through the snow pack in certain snow conditions but buried axes would be much more likely to shoot out. All things being equal (quality of snow and quality of placement), a deadman is stronger than a stake or buried axes. If people don't carry them its because they think they are too big and heavy or because they can't be bothered to learn how to place them.


But they are the best option when using snow belays. I once took a 30 foot fall and was held on a body belay. They do work if you know what you're doing.

In reply to pec:


>All things being equal (quality of snow and quality of placement)


But all things often are not equal. Which is why I don't bother with deadmen. Stick a nut in the wall, you don't have to fart around wondering whether things are equal or not; it's in, you're clipped into it, you're safe, end of story. Which was the point of my post...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

The point of deadmen is that you use them when you can't get a nut in, which on some crags (eg Ben Nevis) is actually quite often. Nobody in their right mind would belay off a snow anchor in preference to a rock anchor but when you don't have the choice a deadman is your strongest option.

In reply to crayefish:

Thanks for all your replies so far guys.

Some mixed views here about the deadman which I kinda expected. I don't see the problem with people not knowing how to use them though... if you don't, go to a slope and try it out! Practice makes perfect.

So for belays it seems people are just using bucket seat and buried axes (in a T shape? Or have people found separate equalized axes better?) and then a stake or deadman as a runner perhaps.

But on a grade III gully say, are people only using a runner below a big cornice or does anyone have a runner half way up? (this is assuming there is no rock pro available)

How much rope would you pay out on such a climb before setting up a belay? I would have though that if no runners are used, using only half the rope say would mean less loading on the belay if the lead falls with nearly all of the planned rope paid out.

In reply to crayefish:

With no runners I'd think a leader fall would take out any snow belay that is any distance below the leader at the point he/she falls

In reply to crayefish:

I think ur Q is hypothetical as there Will b pro available, ie rock or ice, as ur on a grade 3 route, ie not just a steep snow slope. This has been my experience in 7 years of winter climbing.

If there was a long run out below a cornice, I Wud bring my 2nd up via buried axe n bucket assuming snow only 4 pro, b4 they tackled the cornice, thus reducing any potential fall.

Davey

In reply to crayefish:


Fortunately the sort of steep snow slopes which require snow belays aren't usually steep enough that falling off should be an issue and the risk of this needs to balanced against taking a lot longer by doing short pitches and setting up more belays.

Generally, in the absence of any protection, I'd run out near full rope length pitches on such routes unless I got to a steepening (often below the cornice at the top of a gully) which I wasn't totally confident about effectively soloing and consider setting up a belay there.

If you work on the basis of if its ground you'd be happy soloing then run it out, otherwise set up belays sooner rather than later, then you should be ok.

In reply to crayefish:

Some sensible suggestions there. Particularly setting up a new belay below a cornice.

BUT... (this may be a stupid question!)... if anything other than a fall from a say 10 meters above the belay would likely result in the belayer being pulled off due to weak snow anchors, then why even bother pitching it? Surely moving together or soloing would be more sensible as would be significantly quicker? You could then pitch the few meters below the cornice.

In reply to crayefish:

Sometimes people will solo or move together over steep snow slopes but it may not always be quickest. By the time you've coiled your ropes up and put them away only to have to get them out again and re tie in when you get to a tricky bit, it may well be faster just to stay roped and quickly run out rope lengths.

Moving together also requires absolute confidence that your partner won't slip and pull you off. A weaker partner may also be happy to have a top rope even if the other climber is happy to solo.

Also, when you set off up a snow gully you don't actually know you aren't going to be able to get a runner in, often you can.

Finally, snow belays won't necessarily fail. Falls on this terrain may be more like a fast slide. With a well placed deadman, a good stance and some dynamic body belaying there's more chance of stopping a fall than if you don't belay at all.

There are no hard and fast rules, its a matter of judgement.

In reply to Mountain Llama:


Not necessarily at all.

The last section to and through the cornice is very often steep, not very well consolidated snow, with no rock or ice in sight. For example Point 5 consists of 3 technical pitches, then long bits of II/III moving together ground, finally a steep snow slope that may or may not have a problematic cornice. So the question is very pertinent.

Personally I haven't carried a deadman for a long time, given that as someone pointed out, they are very specific and quite heavy/awkward. I tend to use axe belays in that situation, though I have seen research that claims that snow bollards are considerably better than you might expect. Certainly bucket seats and body belays can help, but often they are not practical partway up a steep snow slope.