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Two disclaimers here:
1) I do a fair bit of road biking, but not as a commuter.
2) I'm one half of an ambulance crew in and around Manchester.
Over the last couple of weeks, me and my oppo did an unscientific survey on cyclists. We look first of all at cyclists before 0800 and after 1500 (which in Manchester is generally pretty dark and grim). We categorized cyclists according to their lighting...none, crap, decent, excellent.
After 7 long, 12 hours shifts we have the following figures:
None: 24%
Crap: 29%
Decent: 17%
Excellent: 30%
"Crap" means they have lights but until you're almost on them you can't see them (often these lights are obscured by clothing/rucksacks or are clearly shitty cheap lights) Helemt usage was over 70%.
Given that we were actively looking out for them some were practically invisible. The best one was a black guy, on a black bike, wearing black clothes with his kid on the back, in rush hour. No lights, no helmets: awesome.
The third disclaimer is that over the last 2 weeks we've been to 3 car vs cyclist call outs all of which have been pretty traumatic (in the medical sense of the word) - none had lights that we could see.
Are you visible? How much have you spent on lights? (I've spent about £200). being seen from the front and rear is great, but think about the side view too. 98% of cyclists don't have any sideways visible lighting (on arms, legs or spokes)
I present these figures for discussion, but it seems to me that 70% of cyclists are their own worst enemies.
Post edited at 19:34
In reply to Frank the Husky:
if one of your categories is 'decent' then surely only 53% are their own worst enemies?
if one of your categories is 'decent' then surely only 53% are their own worst enemies?
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I commute to work almost every day and I often see people with inadequate lighting. Best yet was a bloke with just a rear light, but it was pretty useless because his shoulder bag was obscuring it!
We need to make it law that bikes have to be fitted with decent lights, as it stands it's only reflectors that are required. I know in Germany all shopping/commuter bikes must have lights of a minimum standard fitted before they leave the shop.
My bike has a dynamo setup, nice and bright and I don't have to remember to replace the batteries!
P.S. Hope you don't have to come and pick me up anytime soon Mr K.
I commute to work almost every day and I often see people with inadequate lighting. Best yet was a bloke with just a rear light, but it was pretty useless because his shoulder bag was obscuring it!
We need to make it law that bikes have to be fitted with decent lights, as it stands it's only reflectors that are required. I know in Germany all shopping/commuter bikes must have lights of a minimum standard fitted before they leave the shop.
My bike has a dynamo setup, nice and bright and I don't have to remember to replace the batteries!
P.S. Hope you don't have to come and pick me up anytime soon Mr K.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I'm pretty sure I fit into your "excellent" category, but I'm having a bit of a crisis of conscience about my front light. I have a choice of super-bright front lights (Hope r8 or Exposure 6 pack) and an exposure diablo on my head which light the road up like a good 'un. i have them angled towards the verge but they are just Very Bright. I ride up Wharfedale to Grassington most evenings and my lights obviously really piss off one of the bus drivers who flashes hi full beam at me every time he goes the other way.
So what's the answer? Not be able to see properly (it's pitch black and there's bits where i'm doing 25-30mph) or buy some dim lights and keep the bus driver happy (i even knock the setting down to "low" when I see cars coming)?
By the way, i have a hope district and an exposure redeye on the back, so they can't miss me from behind.
I'm pretty sure I fit into your "excellent" category, but I'm having a bit of a crisis of conscience about my front light. I have a choice of super-bright front lights (Hope r8 or Exposure 6 pack) and an exposure diablo on my head which light the road up like a good 'un. i have them angled towards the verge but they are just Very Bright. I ride up Wharfedale to Grassington most evenings and my lights obviously really piss off one of the bus drivers who flashes hi full beam at me every time he goes the other way.
So what's the answer? Not be able to see properly (it's pitch black and there's bits where i'm doing 25-30mph) or buy some dim lights and keep the bus driver happy (i even knock the setting down to "low" when I see cars coming)?
By the way, i have a hope district and an exposure redeye on the back, so they can't miss me from behind.
In reply to andy:
I dazzled a cyclist with full beam on an unlit country road a few years ago because his light was so bright that it looked like a light from somewhere else in the distance, I had no idea it was a cyclist until he got much closer (sounds impossible, but I think it was to do with the curves in the road and the fact it was pitch black)! On the whole though I think it's better to be seen and see where you're going than to keep 1 bus driver happy...
I dazzled a cyclist with full beam on an unlit country road a few years ago because his light was so bright that it looked like a light from somewhere else in the distance, I had no idea it was a cyclist until he got much closer (sounds impossible, but I think it was to do with the curves in the road and the fact it was pitch black)! On the whole though I think it's better to be seen and see where you're going than to keep 1 bus driver happy...
In reply to LittleJoe:
I really don't think factory fitted lights are a good idea, cheap bikes will have really crap lights and people will be against it just as they are against anythingforced upon them.
Helmets anyone?
I really don't think factory fitted lights are a good idea, cheap bikes will have really crap lights and people will be against it just as they are against anythingforced upon them.
Helmets anyone?
In reply to andy:
Can't you just by the exposure remote button thing to mount on your handlebars and dip the light when you see on owning traffic?
Can't you just by the exposure remote button thing to mount on your handlebars and dip the light when you see on owning traffic?
In reply to LittleJoe:
Having bought a Lapierre, they come with the minimum standard lights for germany. Quite frankly, supplying these as lights is more dangerous than supplying nothing as some people will presume they are adequate. Essentially they are a single led in the middle of a reflector.
I agree thought that there should be a minimum standard for all lights sold, which should imo be at least 75% of the brightness of a car light. On their own lesser lights can be good, but in the wet amoung cars and other traffic they can be very hard to pick out (flashing obviously helps here)
Whilst there are plenty of front lights of this standard, I am yet to find a rearlight I really consider good enough, so I use 2 1/2 watt (i forget the make) lights. However I dont use my best front lights on the road as being off road mtb jobbies they are blinding even on their low setting, but I do have avery good minewt light I use instead.
Having bought a Lapierre, they come with the minimum standard lights for germany. Quite frankly, supplying these as lights is more dangerous than supplying nothing as some people will presume they are adequate. Essentially they are a single led in the middle of a reflector.
I agree thought that there should be a minimum standard for all lights sold, which should imo be at least 75% of the brightness of a car light. On their own lesser lights can be good, but in the wet amoung cars and other traffic they can be very hard to pick out (flashing obviously helps here)
Whilst there are plenty of front lights of this standard, I am yet to find a rearlight I really consider good enough, so I use 2 1/2 watt (i forget the make) lights. However I dont use my best front lights on the road as being off road mtb jobbies they are blinding even on their low setting, but I do have avery good minewt light I use instead.
In reply to freerangecat: i'm pretty sure drivers aren't sure what I am when i've got lights on - the end of one of my evening rides is a single track road and cars often stop and pull in til I get there when there's no reason to as we'd both happily pass through - not going to argue though, and I always give 'em a cheery wave.
In reply to vark:
If you mean put it on the lower setting i do that. I have it on the 3hrs/10hrs setting and it's the 10hr one that seems to upset him.
They do a road specific light that's not as bright as my 6pack, but I'd prefer to have something as bright as possible for the scary bumpy bits downhill into Burnsall - Skipton and Ilkley cyclists will know which bit I mean.
> Can't you just by the exposure remote button thing to mount on your handlebars and dip the light when you see on owning traffic?
If you mean put it on the lower setting i do that. I have it on the 3hrs/10hrs setting and it's the 10hr one that seems to upset him.
They do a road specific light that's not as bright as my 6pack, but I'd prefer to have something as bright as possible for the scary bumpy bits downhill into Burnsall - Skipton and Ilkley cyclists will know which bit I mean.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
If I may suggest the Hope District+ (red light - geddit?)? I also have an Exposure one that plugs into the front light that's extraordinarily bright.
>
> Whilst there are plenty of front lights of this standard, I am yet to find a rearlight I really consider good enough,
If I may suggest the Hope District+ (red light - geddit?)? I also have an Exposure one that plugs into the front light that's extraordinarily bright.
In reply to andy:
I like this idea, but i havent yet seen one in the flesh to see how effective it is, and I think they are technically illegal
http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAVFY%C2%AE-Bicycle-LASER-Light-Flashing/dp/B0096ML...
I like this idea, but i havent yet seen one in the flesh to see how effective it is, and I think they are technically illegal
http://www.amazon.co.uk/SAVFY%C2%AE-Bicycle-LASER-Light-Flashing/dp/B0096ML...
In reply to balmybaldwin:
About £100 including battery, but it'll last you 5+ years, during which you'll get through 5 £20 Cateyes.
> Thanks, will have a look at this.... does it have the usual hope price tag?
About £100 including battery, but it'll last you 5+ years, during which you'll get through 5 £20 Cateyes.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
I've seen one, but not outdoors at night. It was a bit weedy to be honest.
> I like this idea, but i havent yet seen one in the flesh to see how effective it is, and I think they are technically illegal
I've seen one, but not outdoors at night. It was a bit weedy to be honest.
I haven't seen really 'crap' lights, even the cheap ones are quite visible. What the problem is, is not the quality of the light, but (almost) empty batteries.
I tried several solutions. I tried expensive lithium batteries (should work better in the cold), but they did not really resulted in better lighting or use time. Best solution is to just replace the batteries when the lights starts to dim. Personally not a real fan of dynamo's, somehow somewhere the cable will break and i like to have light when i have to stop for traffic (lights) too.
As for blinding others with a too bright of a light. I have a really big problem finding a proper bike light, which will work like a low beam of a car. Best solution i have found is having too lights; One to be seen and one to see with. The last one will be turned off when there is other traffic.
I tried several solutions. I tried expensive lithium batteries (should work better in the cold), but they did not really resulted in better lighting or use time. Best solution is to just replace the batteries when the lights starts to dim. Personally not a real fan of dynamo's, somehow somewhere the cable will break and i like to have light when i have to stop for traffic (lights) too.
As for blinding others with a too bright of a light. I have a really big problem finding a proper bike light, which will work like a low beam of a car. Best solution i have found is having too lights; One to be seen and one to see with. The last one will be turned off when there is other traffic.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I'm completely with you. A simple campaign stating "What is your life worth?" would certainly wake a few people up. My bug bear are the students who have got a key ring with an LED that they have adopted as having lights. I really want to say something, but can't help feeling I would get punched in the nose as a result of it.
I'm completely with you. A simple campaign stating "What is your life worth?" would certainly wake a few people up. My bug bear are the students who have got a key ring with an LED that they have adopted as having lights. I really want to say something, but can't help feeling I would get punched in the nose as a result of it.
In reply to tjin:
Trouble is when on pitch black B-roads when there's other traffic you still can't see where you're going - despite the Tour coming up here North Yorkshire CC still seem to have left an inordinately large number of potholes in the roads, and without something bright you just can't see them.
> The last one will be turned off when there is other traffic.
Trouble is when on pitch black B-roads when there's other traffic you still can't see where you're going - despite the Tour coming up here North Yorkshire CC still seem to have left an inordinately large number of potholes in the roads, and without something bright you just can't see them.
In reply to andy:
If you blind others, some will slow down others will move to the middle of the road, because they don't want to drive off the road (that is, closer to you). So stop endanger others. Dim the light, by either turn it off, shade it by hand or point it lower.
> Trouble is when on pitch black B-roads when there's other traffic you still can't see where you're going - despite the Tour coming up here North Yorkshire CC still seem to have left an inordinately large number of potholes in the roads, and without something bright you just can't see them.
If you blind others, some will slow down others will move to the middle of the road, because they don't want to drive off the road (that is, closer to you). So stop endanger others. Dim the light, by either turn it off, shade it by hand or point it lower.
In reply to andy:
For rear lights I am much more likely to notice something that flashes when I am in the car. I do most of my cycling on unlit country lanes. I manage OK with a not very bright front light. However, I do know where most of the potholes are and I am probably only doing 15mph.
For rear lights I am much more likely to notice something that flashes when I am in the car. I do most of my cycling on unlit country lanes. I manage OK with a not very bright front light. However, I do know where most of the potholes are and I am probably only doing 15mph.
In reply to tjin:
I do dim it as far as it can be dimmed, and it's definitely angled towards the verge on my side - but whilst the beam isn't shining directly at the driver it just is Very Bright. As explained, unless I stop (which I'm not going to do) it's not feasible to turn it off as it's pitch black. Pointing it lower's not the issue as it's already angled well to my side, and the whole point of it is to be able to see enough ride reasonably (18-24mph) quickly, so it needs to be a reasonable distance up the road. And I have shaded it by hand sometimes, but there's bits of my usual evening ride where I don't want to take a hand off the bars, as I'm going downhill on a poor surface at about 30mph and am therefore cacking myself!
It does seem to be this one bus - maybe he's got sensitive eyes?
> If you blind others, some will slow down others will move to the middle of the road, because they don't want to drive off the road (that is, closer to you). So stop endanger others. Dim the light, by either turn it off, shade it by hand or point it lower.
I do dim it as far as it can be dimmed, and it's definitely angled towards the verge on my side - but whilst the beam isn't shining directly at the driver it just is Very Bright. As explained, unless I stop (which I'm not going to do) it's not feasible to turn it off as it's pitch black. Pointing it lower's not the issue as it's already angled well to my side, and the whole point of it is to be able to see enough ride reasonably (18-24mph) quickly, so it needs to be a reasonable distance up the road. And I have shaded it by hand sometimes, but there's bits of my usual evening ride where I don't want to take a hand off the bars, as I'm going downhill on a poor surface at about 30mph and am therefore cacking myself!
It does seem to be this one bus - maybe he's got sensitive eyes?
In reply to wilkesley:
Flashes makes you more visible, but makes it harder to see depth. So drivers have a harder time to see how far away you are. Especially when there is rain and/or fog. That is why it's illegal in some countries to use flashers.
> For rear lights I am much more likely to notice something that flashes when I am in the car. I do most of my cycling on unlit country lanes. I manage OK with a not very bright front light. However, I do know where most of the potholes are and I am probably only doing 15mph.
Flashes makes you more visible, but makes it harder to see depth. So drivers have a harder time to see how far away you are. Especially when there is rain and/or fog. That is why it's illegal in some countries to use flashers.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
The conclusion from my unscientific study on Saturday was that blondes shouldn't be allowed to drive 4x4s !
The conclusion from my unscientific study on Saturday was that blondes shouldn't be allowed to drive 4x4s !
In reply to andy:
As you have done (aimed at others), buy a light that is switchable from dim to bright, and dim it, the same way as a car would, when approaching another vehicle. Or buy one with a mount that can be dipped (with a bit of rotational movement around the bars/mount, I mean) to give the same effect.
When cycling and driving I'm getting fed up of being blinded by superbright cycle lights in my face. Cars tend to dim/dip theirs.
If you're blinding a bus driver you've got it pointing up in the air, anyway, so maybe check that. Or maybe he's just a twit.
Neil
As you have done (aimed at others), buy a light that is switchable from dim to bright, and dim it, the same way as a car would, when approaching another vehicle. Or buy one with a mount that can be dipped (with a bit of rotational movement around the bars/mount, I mean) to give the same effect.
When cycling and driving I'm getting fed up of being blinded by superbright cycle lights in my face. Cars tend to dim/dip theirs.
If you're blinding a bus driver you've got it pointing up in the air, anyway, so maybe check that. Or maybe he's just a twit.
Neil
In reply to andy:
"as I'm going downhill on a poor surface at about 30mph and am therefore cacking myself!"
Perhaps you should slow down a bit? Road users shouldn't really be "cacking themselves" due to their own actions, that's removing all the leeway you have to deal with another road user being an idiot without ending up in the bushes?
"It does seem to be this one bus - maybe he's got sensitive eyes? "
Does your light have any perceivable flicker? I certainly have a bit of an issue with flicker on car LED tail lights which seem often to be pulsed at 50Hz (100Hz or better is fine, but the cheapo fittings use a lower frequency), but it seems not everyone does. I really don't look forward to the day headlights start doing this.
Neil
"as I'm going downhill on a poor surface at about 30mph and am therefore cacking myself!"
Perhaps you should slow down a bit? Road users shouldn't really be "cacking themselves" due to their own actions, that's removing all the leeway you have to deal with another road user being an idiot without ending up in the bushes?
"It does seem to be this one bus - maybe he's got sensitive eyes? "
Does your light have any perceivable flicker? I certainly have a bit of an issue with flicker on car LED tail lights which seem often to be pulsed at 50Hz (100Hz or better is fine, but the cheapo fittings use a lower frequency), but it seems not everyone does. I really don't look forward to the day headlights start doing this.
Neil
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I use a http://www.cateye.com/en/products/detail/TL-LD1100/ which has side firing LEDs helping out with the side visibility issue. Also has two rows of LEDs which are independently controlled so you can have one static and one flashing. Result.
Combined with Schwalbe Marathon tires with reflective sidewalls.
Also have an de-strapped Aplikt Gamma cable tied to my helmet - handy for pointing directly at people.
Overall I reckon I've spent £75 on lights for my commuter
I use a http://www.cateye.com/en/products/detail/TL-LD1100/ which has side firing LEDs helping out with the side visibility issue. Also has two rows of LEDs which are independently controlled so you can have one static and one flashing. Result.
Combined with Schwalbe Marathon tires with reflective sidewalls.
Also have an de-strapped Aplikt Gamma cable tied to my helmet - handy for pointing directly at people.
Overall I reckon I've spent £75 on lights for my commuter
In reply to andy:
Shield them so they produce a proper dipped beam pattern?
There's someone with retina burning lights that cycle commutes the opposite way to me (I drive) and whenever I pass him during the winter I have to come to a dead stop and simply wait until he's passed for fear of hitting pedestrians/cyclists on my side of the road. Ok, clearly he needs to be seen, it's an unlit country road but he's potentially putting other people at risk.
jk
> So what's the answer? Not be able to see properly (it's pitch black and there's bits where i'm doing 25-30mph) or buy some dim lights and keep the bus driver happy (i even knock the setting down to "low" when I see cars coming)?
Shield them so they produce a proper dipped beam pattern?
There's someone with retina burning lights that cycle commutes the opposite way to me (I drive) and whenever I pass him during the winter I have to come to a dead stop and simply wait until he's passed for fear of hitting pedestrians/cyclists on my side of the road. Ok, clearly he needs to be seen, it's an unlit country road but he's potentially putting other people at risk.
jk
In reply to andy:
My bet is they stop not because they're confused but because they simply cannot see to proceed safely. I'm sure they appreciate the cheery wave though.
jk
> i'm pretty sure drivers aren't sure what I am when i've got lights on - the end of one of my evening rides is a single track road and cars often stop and pull in til I get there when there's no reason to as we'd both happily pass through - not going to argue though, and I always give 'em a cheery wave.
My bet is they stop not because they're confused but because they simply cannot see to proceed safely. I'm sure they appreciate the cheery wave though.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Not commenting on the OP's light as I haven't seen it, but I agree. These lights need to dim-dip the same as a car or they are downright dangerous for other road users.
Cyclists using them need to remember that those in a car are sitting lower than them, and thus that they do need dipping a fair way down to avoid dazzling drivers. But I'm getting fed up of being dazzled when cycling, and I generally ride a MTB type hybrid with a very upright seating position, so they must be pointing them up in the air.
Worth remembering that an LED in the face is heading for as bad as a laser in the face in terms of destroying vision (though unlike a laser it does at least tend to be temporary). I must say I don't like these laser assisted bike lights that seem to be in the news lately (they project a safe passing line on the road) - if misaligned even accidentally these could be deadly. There is no place for laser lighting on any road vehicle, IMO.
Also remember - if you dazzle an oncoming car driver (or one behind you with a bright LED red pointing up in the air rather than dipped such that when at a safe distance it isn't shining in the driver's face) you are putting *yourself* at risk as you are preventing that driver seeing the road properly.
Neil
Not commenting on the OP's light as I haven't seen it, but I agree. These lights need to dim-dip the same as a car or they are downright dangerous for other road users.
Cyclists using them need to remember that those in a car are sitting lower than them, and thus that they do need dipping a fair way down to avoid dazzling drivers. But I'm getting fed up of being dazzled when cycling, and I generally ride a MTB type hybrid with a very upright seating position, so they must be pointing them up in the air.
Worth remembering that an LED in the face is heading for as bad as a laser in the face in terms of destroying vision (though unlike a laser it does at least tend to be temporary). I must say I don't like these laser assisted bike lights that seem to be in the news lately (they project a safe passing line on the road) - if misaligned even accidentally these could be deadly. There is no place for laser lighting on any road vehicle, IMO.
Also remember - if you dazzle an oncoming car driver (or one behind you with a bright LED red pointing up in the air rather than dipped such that when at a safe distance it isn't shining in the driver's face) you are putting *yourself* at risk as you are preventing that driver seeing the road properly.
Neil
Post edited at 11:13
In reply to Neil Williams:
I'm cacking myself because I'm a wimp, not because it's dangerously fast - most of my clubmates go down that bit of road way faster than me - my point was on a pretty poor road surface, in the dark, I don't want to take my hands off the brakes/bars to shield my front light - it's not as if I have a lot of choice about how fast I'm going - speed down the hill into Burnsall is dictated by gravity and my fat arse - I can assure you I'm braking pretty much all the way!
Not that I can see - I have an Exposure and a Hope front light (don't use them at the same time, just depends which one's charging).
I will have another look at alignment, but from observation my light is angled lower and further into the nearside than a car's headlights.
> "as I'm going downhill on a poor surface at about 30mph and am therefore cacking myself!"
> Perhaps you should slow down a bit? Road users shouldn't really be "cacking themselves" due to their own actions, that's removing all the leeway you have to deal with another road user being an idiot without ending up in the bushes?
I'm cacking myself because I'm a wimp, not because it's dangerously fast - most of my clubmates go down that bit of road way faster than me - my point was on a pretty poor road surface, in the dark, I don't want to take my hands off the brakes/bars to shield my front light - it's not as if I have a lot of choice about how fast I'm going - speed down the hill into Burnsall is dictated by gravity and my fat arse - I can assure you I'm braking pretty much all the way!
> "It does seem to be this one bus - maybe he's got sensitive eyes? "
> Does your light have any perceivable flicker?
Not that I can see - I have an Exposure and a Hope front light (don't use them at the same time, just depends which one's charging).
I will have another look at alignment, but from observation my light is angled lower and further into the nearside than a car's headlights.
In reply to andy:
"I'm cacking myself because I'm a wimp, not because it's dangerously fast - most of my clubmates go down that bit of road way faster than me - my point was on a pretty poor road surface, in the dark, I don't want to take my hands off the brakes/bars to shield my front light - it's not as if I have a lot of choice about how fast I'm going - speed down the hill into Burnsall is dictated by gravity and my fat arse - I can assure you I'm braking pretty much all the way!"
You mean you would be unable to stop on the hill even with full braking both back and front? I wouldn't want your bike then, or if I did I wouldn't be riding down there...
If your light is the same as a dipped car headlight, he is probably just being a twit. Or perhaps flashing to point out that there is a pothole ahead or something.
Neil
"I'm cacking myself because I'm a wimp, not because it's dangerously fast - most of my clubmates go down that bit of road way faster than me - my point was on a pretty poor road surface, in the dark, I don't want to take my hands off the brakes/bars to shield my front light - it's not as if I have a lot of choice about how fast I'm going - speed down the hill into Burnsall is dictated by gravity and my fat arse - I can assure you I'm braking pretty much all the way!"
You mean you would be unable to stop on the hill even with full braking both back and front? I wouldn't want your bike then, or if I did I wouldn't be riding down there...
If your light is the same as a dipped car headlight, he is probably just being a twit. Or perhaps flashing to point out that there is a pothole ahead or something.
Neil
Post edited at 11:32
In reply to Neil Williams:
Yes, of course I could stop - what I mean is I'm feathering the brakes to stop the speed getting too high.
> You mean you would be unable to stop on the hill even with full braking both back and front? I wouldn't want your bike then, or if I did I wouldn't be riding down there...
Yes, of course I could stop - what I mean is I'm feathering the brakes to stop the speed getting too high.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Angled down the main part of the beam may well be angled lower than a car headlight dip beam but there'll be a lot of light spilling out above that central bright region, by design this isn't the case with dipped car lights which (when clean) have a very well defined beam pattern.
jk
> If your light is the same as a dipped car headlight, he is probably just being a twit. Or perhaps flashing to point out that there is a pothole ahead or something.
Angled down the main part of the beam may well be angled lower than a car headlight dip beam but there'll be a lot of light spilling out above that central bright region, by design this isn't the case with dipped car lights which (when clean) have a very well defined beam pattern.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
That might be it - but there's not a lot I can do about that, really - I'll have a look tonight whilst I'm out and see if I can adjust it a bit - but at the end of the day I need it to do two things to keep me safe - I have to be able to see where I'm going at a reasonable speed and people need to be able to see me.
> Angled down the main part of the beam may well be angled lower than a car headlight dip beam but there'll be a lot of light spilling out above that central bright region, by design this isn't the case with dipped car lights which (when clean) have a very well defined beam pattern.
> jk
That might be it - but there's not a lot I can do about that, really - I'll have a look tonight whilst I'm out and see if I can adjust it a bit - but at the end of the day I need it to do two things to keep me safe - I have to be able to see where I'm going at a reasonable speed and people need to be able to see me.
In reply to andy:
"at the end of the day I need it to do two things to keep me safe - I have to be able to see where I'm going at a reasonable speed and people need to be able to see me."
What many cyclists miss here is that if someone is dazzling them with their lights, they can't see you. And if you're dazzling someone with your lights, they can't see the other cyclist behind you. If your specific lights can't avoid dazzling drivers, they are not fit for purpose.
Bright lights = good, but not if they dazzle people by their position or design.
Neil
"at the end of the day I need it to do two things to keep me safe - I have to be able to see where I'm going at a reasonable speed and people need to be able to see me."
What many cyclists miss here is that if someone is dazzling them with their lights, they can't see you. And if you're dazzling someone with your lights, they can't see the other cyclist behind you. If your specific lights can't avoid dazzling drivers, they are not fit for purpose.
Bright lights = good, but not if they dazzle people by their position or design.
Neil
In reply to andy:
There's seeing you in good time and seeing nothing but blinding light and an opaque sparkling windscreen... If that dazzled driver through frustration, hubris or inexperience decides to push on rather than slow or stop are you really any safer than if you hadn't blinded them? What if the car you're dazzling stops inviting the opportunity for the one behind, which may not yet have seen you to overtake? What about the rider coming the other way who's now much less visible in your glare and for a while afterwards while the drivers' eyes readjust?
Sorry, not trying to have a go, I understand the appeal but blinding bike lights really are a menace to other road users and potentially to the riders using them. I think sometimes this is missed in the desire to be seen. Good retroflective tape/clothing/bands is what I see first especially from the rear.
Maybe experiment with some insulation tape with the bike stood facing a wall, see what you can do to block the upper right quadrant of the beam. Easy to do on some lenses, trickier on others.
> That might be it - but there's not a lot I can do about that, really - I'll have a look tonight whilst I'm out and see if I can adjust it a bit - but at the end of the day I need it to do two things to keep me safe - I have to be able to see where I'm going at a reasonable speed and people need to be able to see me.
There's seeing you in good time and seeing nothing but blinding light and an opaque sparkling windscreen... If that dazzled driver through frustration, hubris or inexperience decides to push on rather than slow or stop are you really any safer than if you hadn't blinded them? What if the car you're dazzling stops inviting the opportunity for the one behind, which may not yet have seen you to overtake? What about the rider coming the other way who's now much less visible in your glare and for a while afterwards while the drivers' eyes readjust?
Sorry, not trying to have a go, I understand the appeal but blinding bike lights really are a menace to other road users and potentially to the riders using them. I think sometimes this is missed in the desire to be seen. Good retroflective tape/clothing/bands is what I see first especially from the rear.
Maybe experiment with some insulation tape with the bike stood facing a wall, see what you can do to block the upper right quadrant of the beam. Easy to do on some lenses, trickier on others.
In reply to jkarran:
Well like I said upthread, there's just one bus driver who seems to flash me regularly - nobody else, and no-one's ever stopped (apart from on single track lanes in a passing place, which is a good thing - I'd rather that than they press on expecting me to ride in the hedge, which is what usually happens in daylight). I'm pretty positive my light isn't shining in people's eyes - but it is very "white" and bright, even when angled away.
I've no worries about being seen from the back - a very bright rear light (angled down) and a tiny, but very bright, LED on my helmet, reflective bits on my jacket. If anybody misses that lot then they're either blind or on the phone.
Incidentally - my "menacing" lights are probably about a quarter the brightness of most car headlights - which no matter where they're pointed do have the effect of stopping you being able to see - it's why I wear a peaked cap under my helmet so I can keep my head down and not get blinded.
Well like I said upthread, there's just one bus driver who seems to flash me regularly - nobody else, and no-one's ever stopped (apart from on single track lanes in a passing place, which is a good thing - I'd rather that than they press on expecting me to ride in the hedge, which is what usually happens in daylight). I'm pretty positive my light isn't shining in people's eyes - but it is very "white" and bright, even when angled away.
I've no worries about being seen from the back - a very bright rear light (angled down) and a tiny, but very bright, LED on my helmet, reflective bits on my jacket. If anybody misses that lot then they're either blind or on the phone.
Incidentally - my "menacing" lights are probably about a quarter the brightness of most car headlights - which no matter where they're pointed do have the effect of stopping you being able to see - it's why I wear a peaked cap under my helmet so I can keep my head down and not get blinded.
Post edited at 13:48
In reply to andy:
Perhaps then the bus driver is indeed a twit. (Your light is very unlikely t be shining in his eyes unless it's pointing up in the air given how high up a bus driver sits - it's car drivers who sit a bit lower than cyclists who mainly fall victim to this kind of thing).
Neil
Perhaps then the bus driver is indeed a twit. (Your light is very unlikely t be shining in his eyes unless it's pointing up in the air given how high up a bus driver sits - it's car drivers who sit a bit lower than cyclists who mainly fall victim to this kind of thing).
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams: I'll check it again tonight, but as I can relate from having dipped car lights coming the other way, a bright light does make it harder to see whether it's shining directly into your eyes or not - I'm pretty certain mine isn't, but I take the point about bike lights maybe having more "spread" than a car light - so I'll have a look and see if I can drop it further down. The thing is with all this weather we've been having you never know if a bloody great branch will have blown onto the road, so you do need to be able to see a way down the road.
When I'm driving through Manchester, I have an issue with bright bike lights that are set to a very slow flash (i.e. every second or so). A fast flash, or flicker mode is fine. I can tell it's a bike, and I can guess how far away they are. With the slow flash You're not really sure where they are, or indeed what they are until they're quite close.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Magicshine on the front, and a big cateye handgrenade like thing on the back, which have LEDs on the sides. then 2 small led lights attached to the seat stays.
reflective thingmagics around 4 spokes in each wheel and soon some reflective tape on the cranks and other stratetic locations.
and usually flourocent cover with reflective strips on the backpack.
If people cant see me, they should not be on the road.
Magicshine on the front, and a big cateye handgrenade like thing on the back, which have LEDs on the sides. then 2 small led lights attached to the seat stays.
reflective thingmagics around 4 spokes in each wheel and soon some reflective tape on the cranks and other stratetic locations.
and usually flourocent cover with reflective strips on the backpack.
If people cant see me, they should not be on the road.
In reply to andy:
It's not how bright or white they are that matters within reason, even a small torch against a dark background is bright and dazzling when shone at your eyes through glass. Add in a little rain for more sparkle/reflections and it becomes impossible to properly judge the position/depth of the light that's blinding you.
I'm not having a go by saying they're a menace, as I say I understand the appeal and I have no idea if yours are or aren't dazzling but you started out the discussion offering that you suspected they might be dazzling people. I don't know if you drive or not but in case you don't or you'd somehow missed how disabling it is I'm just explaining why dazzling lights are a menace. Like the word or not I don't really care they really are a hazard to others and you (assuming yours are dazzling). With the right beam pattern you'd be able to see down the road and be properly seen rather than just a painful blur that's probably on the other side of the road and certainly somewhere in front of me and now I no longer know which side of the road I'm on. If you suspect you're dazzling people then check it out and do something about it, not only is it good manners it's a good idea for your own safety.
Off topic but still dazzle related I lost all forward vision this weekend due to the low sun on my windscreen. Ordinarily I'd slow, pop my head out the window or stop but at 100ft up on finals in a glider that wasn't an option. Lesson learned!
jk
> Incidentally - my "menacing" lights are probably about a quarter the brightness of most car headlights - which no matter where they're pointed do have the effect of stopping you being able to see - it's why I wear a peaked cap under my helmet so I can keep my head down and not get blinded.
It's not how bright or white they are that matters within reason, even a small torch against a dark background is bright and dazzling when shone at your eyes through glass. Add in a little rain for more sparkle/reflections and it becomes impossible to properly judge the position/depth of the light that's blinding you.
I'm not having a go by saying they're a menace, as I say I understand the appeal and I have no idea if yours are or aren't dazzling but you started out the discussion offering that you suspected they might be dazzling people. I don't know if you drive or not but in case you don't or you'd somehow missed how disabling it is I'm just explaining why dazzling lights are a menace. Like the word or not I don't really care they really are a hazard to others and you (assuming yours are dazzling). With the right beam pattern you'd be able to see down the road and be properly seen rather than just a painful blur that's probably on the other side of the road and certainly somewhere in front of me and now I no longer know which side of the road I'm on. If you suspect you're dazzling people then check it out and do something about it, not only is it good manners it's a good idea for your own safety.
Off topic but still dazzle related I lost all forward vision this weekend due to the low sun on my windscreen. Ordinarily I'd slow, pop my head out the window or stop but at 100ft up on finals in a glider that wasn't an option. Lesson learned!
jk
In reply to jkarran: I'm more wondering why this bus driver flashes me than thinking I'm dazzling people generally, particularly as I switch my light to its lower setting if I possibly can. I do wonder occasionally whether he thinks that bikes shouldn't have bright lights - I've no doubt that if he looks directly at it the brightness (it's a very white LED) will affect his night vision - but so would looking directly at a car light (which is much, much brighter than either of my front lights).
I am also not having a go, but you could be seen to have a different set of rules as to what's "menacing" depending on whether it's fixed to a car or a bike (and I do drive, btw, so I know exactly what you mean - although being dazzled is actually more debilitating when cycling than when you're driving, as it affects your balance and ability to avoid holes in the road) - yet many drivers who'll dip their lights when they see another car coming don't bother when it's a bike.
I am also not having a go, but you could be seen to have a different set of rules as to what's "menacing" depending on whether it's fixed to a car or a bike (and I do drive, btw, so I know exactly what you mean - although being dazzled is actually more debilitating when cycling than when you're driving, as it affects your balance and ability to avoid holes in the road) - yet many drivers who'll dip their lights when they see another car coming don't bother when it's a bike.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I'd reinforce the need to be seen from the side. I could easily have at best annoyed or at worst hit a cyclist the other week. I was approaching a roundabout in the dark (in the country, no street lights but uninterrupted sight lines), nothing at all was visible until a car approached along one of the other entries and its lights momentarily caught something in silhouette. I slowed to see what it was (I wondered about an animal) and shortly after a cycle came into view. It was actually reasonably well lit but the lighting was very directional front and back. I think he must have been on rather a strange path round the roundabout (perhaps coming inward from an outer footpath on to the road) otherwise the front lights should have pointed towards me sooner but they didn't. If I had not slowed it could have been difficult to stop. I think the rider was aware of the situation though.
I'd reinforce the need to be seen from the side. I could easily have at best annoyed or at worst hit a cyclist the other week. I was approaching a roundabout in the dark (in the country, no street lights but uninterrupted sight lines), nothing at all was visible until a car approached along one of the other entries and its lights momentarily caught something in silhouette. I slowed to see what it was (I wondered about an animal) and shortly after a cycle came into view. It was actually reasonably well lit but the lighting was very directional front and back. I think he must have been on rather a strange path round the roundabout (perhaps coming inward from an outer footpath on to the road) otherwise the front lights should have pointed towards me sooner but they didn't. If I had not slowed it could have been difficult to stop. I think the rider was aware of the situation though.
In reply to andy:
Two wrongs don't, of course, make a right. FWIW I dip my headlights for an oncoming motor vehicle, bicycle or pedestrian. With the latter I think I'm in a tiny minority.
Neil
Two wrongs don't, of course, make a right. FWIW I dip my headlights for an oncoming motor vehicle, bicycle or pedestrian. With the latter I think I'm in a tiny minority.
Neil
In reply to andy:
I cycle too and I'd have to disagree it's worse, perhaps because I don't wear glasses.
I don't think I am holding cars and cycles to different standards, car headlights, at least when dipped have a very well defined beam pattern controlled by law, bike lights rarely do, their 'dip' if that have one is simply the same beam pattern at lower intensity. In terms of output directed toward the driver modern bike lights win hands down over dipped car lights every time.
I must confess I tend to keep my lights up on full beam until I'm stopped when dazzled by a cyclist for exactly the reasons I've already covered. If I don't I can lose my position on the road, potentially veer towards them and I lose track of what's in my path on my side (occasionally pedestrians and other cyclists on my drive home). I dip them once I've stopped not that any cyclist I've stopped for has ever had the courtesy (more likely ability?) to then do the same.
Maybe the bus driver just really hates being dazzled or maybe there's something about the bus (tired windscreen?) that makes it particularly difficult to deal with.
jk
> I am also not having a go, but you could be seen to have a different set of rules as to what's "menacing" depending on whether it's fixed to a car or a bike (and I do drive, btw, so I know exactly what you mean - although being dazzled is actually more debilitating when cycling than when you're driving, as it affects your balance and ability to avoid holes in the road) - yet many drivers who'll dip their lights when they see another car coming don't bother when it's a bike.
I cycle too and I'd have to disagree it's worse, perhaps because I don't wear glasses.
I don't think I am holding cars and cycles to different standards, car headlights, at least when dipped have a very well defined beam pattern controlled by law, bike lights rarely do, their 'dip' if that have one is simply the same beam pattern at lower intensity. In terms of output directed toward the driver modern bike lights win hands down over dipped car lights every time.
I must confess I tend to keep my lights up on full beam until I'm stopped when dazzled by a cyclist for exactly the reasons I've already covered. If I don't I can lose my position on the road, potentially veer towards them and I lose track of what's in my path on my side (occasionally pedestrians and other cyclists on my drive home). I dip them once I've stopped not that any cyclist I've stopped for has ever had the courtesy (more likely ability?) to then do the same.
Maybe the bus driver just really hates being dazzled or maybe there's something about the bus (tired windscreen?) that makes it particularly difficult to deal with.
jk
In reply to Neil Williams:
Dead right you are with the latter - I also run on the same lanes I cycle on (headtorch, reflective vest etc etc) and if one car in ten dips its lights I'd be surprised.
> Two wrongs don't, of course, make a right. FWIW I dip my headlights for an oncoming motor vehicle, bicycle or pedestrian. With the latter I think I'm in a tiny minority.
> Neil
Dead right you are with the latter - I also run on the same lanes I cycle on (headtorch, reflective vest etc etc) and if one car in ten dips its lights I'd be surprised.
In reply to jkarran:
Like I say, I'll check later - my Exposure light (that's with the manufacturers at the moment) has a very definite "bright spot" in the middle, which is the bit I have aimed about 30 yards in front and so the right hand edge is about the middle of my lane - but there is a fairly wide secondary beam which probably does spill across the road - but it's not terribly bright (certainly not bright enough to see very much with, so I'd be surprised if it's dazzling anyone).
But I'll have a look at my Hope beam later and see if I can make sure it's angled off to the side as much as I can.
Exposure actually do a road-specific front light that has a "proper" dip setting that works with a small remote you have on your bars - but I'd already bought mine before I spotted that one, and at about £300 a go I'm not buying another! I also think it's a lot less bright so might be ok for better lit roads than the dark lanes round here.
I suspect he's just a crusty old Dales bus driver who enjoys whinging...
> I cycle too and I'd have to disagree it's worse, perhaps because I don't wear glasses.
> I don't think I am holding cars and cycles to different standards, car headlights, at least when dipped have a very well defined beam pattern controlled by law, bike lights rarely do, their 'dip' if that have one is simply the same beam pattern at lower intensity. In terms of output directed toward the driver modern bike lights win hands down over dipped car lights every time.
Like I say, I'll check later - my Exposure light (that's with the manufacturers at the moment) has a very definite "bright spot" in the middle, which is the bit I have aimed about 30 yards in front and so the right hand edge is about the middle of my lane - but there is a fairly wide secondary beam which probably does spill across the road - but it's not terribly bright (certainly not bright enough to see very much with, so I'd be surprised if it's dazzling anyone).
But I'll have a look at my Hope beam later and see if I can make sure it's angled off to the side as much as I can.
Exposure actually do a road-specific front light that has a "proper" dip setting that works with a small remote you have on your bars - but I'd already bought mine before I spotted that one, and at about £300 a go I'm not buying another! I also think it's a lot less bright so might be ok for better lit roads than the dark lanes round here.
I suspect he's just a crusty old Dales bus driver who enjoys whinging...
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Re previous discussions on this forum and the general competence of British drivers, I rest my case that cycling in winter/difficult winter weather and in the dark is asking to be topped.
DC
Re previous discussions on this forum and the general competence of British drivers, I rest my case that cycling in winter/difficult winter weather and in the dark is asking to be topped.
DC
These should be on sale soon, interested to know how they perform in the real world (the promo video doesn't actually show much decent footage of it being used at night). It would address some of the side light issues, but not all I guess.
http://www.blaze.cc/product/lights/laserlight#ProductFAQs
http://www.blaze.cc/product/lights/laserlight#ProductFAQs
In reply to jkarran:
I don't think a lot of car drivers realise just how bright modern bike LED systems can be even though they have been around for at least five years. They shouldn't be *dazzling* other road users though and if they are correctly set up then they won't be any worse than car headlights. After all you want the road in front of you to be lit rather than the road or vehicles on the other side. One point about them (bike lights) is that they are definitely a "point" source so may be more distracting than the larger lights found on motor vehicles.
As for driving on full beam, you should dip your lights whenever another vehicle is in front of you whether that vehicle is driving in the same or opposite direction. Easiest way to determine this is if you can see their lights then you should be on dipped. (I had this confirmed by a traffic cop who presumably might have some knowledge in this area) If this means you have to slow down ...
Something that apples to all vehicles, cars or bikes, is when travelling over a hump or rise there will be a short period when your lights aren't pointing at the road but possibly at the level of oncoming traffic. It's only temporary and not something to get worked up about.
The front light (complies with German road regs apparently) on my commuter bike has a reflector pattern that creates an even spread of illumination from near to far so I generally have the limit of the lit area set to about 30m ahead. There's some fall off around the edges but at a guess it's a lot less than the "main beam" as I've not had any motorist get upset about it. In fact one motorist said it was hard to see in night traffic and I should get a flashing front light as backup!
My other main front light (used on my road bike) is a Hope Vision 2 and this is more beam like in its light distribution. Again I'd set it up so that the road in front of me is illuminated so centre of beam would aim at 25 to 30 metres ahead of the bike.
To RankAmateur:
There's regulations/law about the rate that lights can flash, check the CTC site as there's a page on there about lights but from memory I think they have to flash between 1Hz and 4Hz (here's the page - ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations)
In reply to Harold:
I think the British Standard for bike lights has something about being seen from the side and some lights do channel a bit of light that way, particularly rear lights. Reflective clothing or strips helps.
I don't think a lot of car drivers realise just how bright modern bike LED systems can be even though they have been around for at least five years. They shouldn't be *dazzling* other road users though and if they are correctly set up then they won't be any worse than car headlights. After all you want the road in front of you to be lit rather than the road or vehicles on the other side. One point about them (bike lights) is that they are definitely a "point" source so may be more distracting than the larger lights found on motor vehicles.
As for driving on full beam, you should dip your lights whenever another vehicle is in front of you whether that vehicle is driving in the same or opposite direction. Easiest way to determine this is if you can see their lights then you should be on dipped. (I had this confirmed by a traffic cop who presumably might have some knowledge in this area) If this means you have to slow down ...
Something that apples to all vehicles, cars or bikes, is when travelling over a hump or rise there will be a short period when your lights aren't pointing at the road but possibly at the level of oncoming traffic. It's only temporary and not something to get worked up about.
The front light (complies with German road regs apparently) on my commuter bike has a reflector pattern that creates an even spread of illumination from near to far so I generally have the limit of the lit area set to about 30m ahead. There's some fall off around the edges but at a guess it's a lot less than the "main beam" as I've not had any motorist get upset about it. In fact one motorist said it was hard to see in night traffic and I should get a flashing front light as backup!
My other main front light (used on my road bike) is a Hope Vision 2 and this is more beam like in its light distribution. Again I'd set it up so that the road in front of me is illuminated so centre of beam would aim at 25 to 30 metres ahead of the bike.
To RankAmateur:
There's regulations/law about the rate that lights can flash, check the CTC site as there's a page on there about lights but from memory I think they have to flash between 1Hz and 4Hz (here's the page - ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations)
In reply to Harold:
I think the British Standard for bike lights has something about being seen from the side and some lights do channel a bit of light that way, particularly rear lights. Reflective clothing or strips helps.
Post edited at 18:50
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I've got various front lights ranging from 25 Lux to 650 Lumens and 1/2 watt at the back (there's part of the problem in itself, standardising comparisons!).
Side on, I've got 3M spoke reflectors that I got in Aldi for £5 a pack, I think - these under a different name:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Salzmann-Reflector-Scotchlite-Reflective-Material/d...
One on every 3rd spoke seems plenty - definitely bright enough parked in the garage. Photos online have all sorts of configurations of them, up to full disco ball!
Most of my cycling clothing has reflective detailing, ranging from not much to a lot.
> Are you visible? How much have you spent on lights? (I've spent about £200). being seen from the front and rear is great, but think about the side view too. 98% of cyclists don't have any sideways visible lighting (on arms, legs or spokes)
I've got various front lights ranging from 25 Lux to 650 Lumens and 1/2 watt at the back (there's part of the problem in itself, standardising comparisons!).
Side on, I've got 3M spoke reflectors that I got in Aldi for £5 a pack, I think - these under a different name:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Salzmann-Reflector-Scotchlite-Reflective-Material/d...
One on every 3rd spoke seems plenty - definitely bright enough parked in the garage. Photos online have all sorts of configurations of them, up to full disco ball!
Most of my cycling clothing has reflective detailing, ranging from not much to a lot.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Interesting thread - I think it would be helpful for cyclists to have running lights and bright clothing in winter, but in addition to this, making sure you have reflective strips on gloves so people can see when you're indicating would also be useful.
Interesting thread - I think it would be helpful for cyclists to have running lights and bright clothing in winter, but in addition to this, making sure you have reflective strips on gloves so people can see when you're indicating would also be useful.
In reply to Tall Clare:
Ooh, Andy won't like that He's rather partial to his black, brown or purple Rapha tops!
I've just been down to the village and as it happened there was a group of cyclists out (we are out in the sticks so this was on an unlit country road) and all had modern LED lighting. One of the four possibly had his light set slightly high but they weren't any more or less distracting than a car. I also did a quick calculation on how far my dipped beam lit up the road - somewhere between 50 and 60 metres but reflective signs several hundred metres in front were lit up.
> Interesting thread - I think it would be helpful for cyclists to have running lights and bright clothing in winter, but in addition to this, making sure you have reflective strips on gloves so people can see when you're indicating would also be useful.
Ooh, Andy won't like that He's rather partial to his black, brown or purple Rapha tops!
I've just been down to the village and as it happened there was a group of cyclists out (we are out in the sticks so this was on an unlit country road) and all had modern LED lighting. One of the four possibly had his light set slightly high but they weren't any more or less distracting than a car. I also did a quick calculation on how far my dipped beam lit up the road - somewhere between 50 and 60 metres but reflective signs several hundred metres in front were lit up.
In reply to Robin UK:
Downright dangerous if misaligned. To me lasers have no place on any road vehicle of any kind.
Neil
Downright dangerous if misaligned. To me lasers have no place on any road vehicle of any kind.
Neil
In reply to Tall Clare:
Was knocked off my bike on a sunny September day by another cyclist despite wearing a fluorescent orange t-shirt... there is no defence against stupidity!
Since my commute takes me along some tree lined roads I use front and rear lights on all but the sunniest days. Increased paranoia and an urge to avoid more broken bones has resulted in me adding several metres of reflective tape to the frame - I look like a Christmas tree!
> Interesting thread - I think it would be helpful for cyclists to have running lights and bright clothing in winter, but in addition to this, making sure you have reflective strips on gloves so people can see when you're indicating would also be useful.
Was knocked off my bike on a sunny September day by another cyclist despite wearing a fluorescent orange t-shirt... there is no defence against stupidity!
Since my commute takes me along some tree lined roads I use front and rear lights on all but the sunniest days. Increased paranoia and an urge to avoid more broken bones has resulted in me adding several metres of reflective tape to the frame - I look like a Christmas tree!
In reply to jkarran: Right - scientific experiment carried out whilst out tonight (didn't get flashed at all, btw). I was checking carefully where my light shines and on a two lane road the bright bit of my light is entirely on my side - when I'm riding in the secondary position about a metre out the edge of the bright bit is, I guess, 3/4 of the way across my lane and maybe 25-30 metres up the road tops. A car, with dipped headlights, lights up far more of the road than me.
Took a picture, which doesn't show the secondary, less bright bit, but you can certainly see where the bit that could dazzle is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74399113@N05/sets/72157639739796435/
I feel vindicated - the bus driver is a dick.
Took a picture, which doesn't show the secondary, less bright bit, but you can certainly see where the bit that could dazzle is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74399113@N05/sets/72157639739796435/
I feel vindicated - the bus driver is a dick.
In reply to Bob:
If you look on Rapha's website you'll see that their winter kit has reflective stuff on it, so my "purple" (I think you'll find the correct term is "dark fig", Robert) top is eminently visible in headlights - and I run a back light even in the daytime in winter unless it's super-sunny and I know I'm going to be home before about 2pm.
And it's MrTC who refers to himself as "the monochrome cyclist", not I!
> Ooh, Andy won't like that He's rather partial to his black, brown or purple Rapha tops!
If you look on Rapha's website you'll see that their winter kit has reflective stuff on it, so my "purple" (I think you'll find the correct term is "dark fig", Robert) top is eminently visible in headlights - and I run a back light even in the daytime in winter unless it's super-sunny and I know I'm going to be home before about 2pm.
And it's MrTC who refers to himself as "the monochrome cyclist", not I!
In reply to andy:
Mr TC knows of my frustration at his attire. A morvelo gilet is winging its way to him...
The comment about reflective gloves was after one of my friends was driving across the back of the chevin early one morning and came up behind a cyclist who, whilst very well lit up, was dressed entirely in black, and it was consequently pretty hard to see his arm when he stuck it out to signal that he was moving to the right...
Mr TC knows of my frustration at his attire. A morvelo gilet is winging its way to him...
The comment about reflective gloves was after one of my friends was driving across the back of the chevin early one morning and came up behind a cyclist who, whilst very well lit up, was dressed entirely in black, and it was consequently pretty hard to see his arm when he stuck it out to signal that he was moving to the right...
In reply to andy:
An interesting page here - http://road.cc/content/news/97193-big-roadcc-lights-test-2013 that allows you to compare different lights. Looks like you definitely get what you pay for - that fave of the cheapskate, the Cree, doesn't look too good.
I did think of Mr TC as well
An interesting page here - http://road.cc/content/news/97193-big-roadcc-lights-test-2013 that allows you to compare different lights. Looks like you definitely get what you pay for - that fave of the cheapskate, the Cree, doesn't look too good.
I did think of Mr TC as well
In reply to Tall Clare: The usual response from a lot of drivers hereabouts when I signal that I'm pulling out to turn right is to overtake me immediately - happens virtually every time on the A59 going either way and invariably on the A65 coming out of Ilkley when I turn off to Addingham - look behind, signal, move out - ZOOOOOM!!!!
In reply to Bob:
Thanks, I am aware of how to use my lights. I keep them up *while stopping*, usually stopping in a hurry because the chap riding the other way has blinded me and I need to get stopped on the road, not in the ditch. I then dip them when I can and wait, often 30 or 40 seconds with my hand shielding my eyes for him to pass then go on my way. I'm not some crusading cyclist-blinder out to make a point.
This I know and this is not the issue, it's the pair of 10 Watt LEDs focussed at bonnet height I have difficulty seeing past.
Excellent. I have no problem at all with super bright lights used and set up appropriately, in fact I think they're a good thing. Many aren't or can't be dipped properly.
jk
> As for driving on full beam, you should dip your lights whenever another vehicle is in front of you whether that vehicle is driving in the same or opposite direction. Easiest way to determine this is if you can see their lights then you should be on dipped. (I had this confirmed by a traffic cop who presumably might have some knowledge in this area) If this means you have to slow down ...
Thanks, I am aware of how to use my lights. I keep them up *while stopping*, usually stopping in a hurry because the chap riding the other way has blinded me and I need to get stopped on the road, not in the ditch. I then dip them when I can and wait, often 30 or 40 seconds with my hand shielding my eyes for him to pass then go on my way. I'm not some crusading cyclist-blinder out to make a point.
> Something that apples to all vehicles, cars or bikes, is when travelling over a hump or rise there will be a short period when your lights aren't pointing at the road but possibly at the level of oncoming traffic. It's only temporary and not something to get worked up about.
This I know and this is not the issue, it's the pair of 10 Watt LEDs focussed at bonnet height I have difficulty seeing past.
> The front light (complies with German road regs apparently) on my commuter bike has a reflector pattern that creates an even spread of illumination from near to far so I generally have the limit of the lit area set to about 30m ahead. There's some fall off around the edges but at a guess it's a lot less than the "main beam" as I've not had any motorist get upset about it. In fact one motorist said it was hard to see in night traffic and I should get a flashing front light as backup!
Excellent. I have no problem at all with super bright lights used and set up appropriately, in fact I think they're a good thing. Many aren't or can't be dipped properly.
jk
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I can't believe the breathtaking political incorrectness of that observation has passed without comment....of course you have a point :p
>
> Given that we were actively looking out for them some were practically invisible. The best one was a black guy, on a black bike, wearing black clothes with his kid on the back, in rush hour. No lights, no helmets: awesome.
I can't believe the breathtaking political incorrectness of that observation has passed without comment....of course you have a point :p
As a cyclist one of my growing pet hates is other cyclists riding in the dark without lights OR lights that are clearly crap as the battery is dying or light obscured by a bag or something... if I pass any on the commute I will politely mention say, hey fella, cant see your light. Driving home from the climbign wall last night about 8.30pm I saw one guy in refective gear only, no lights and yes I saw him but I noticed other drivers left a lot less room for him and drivers behind the car about to overtake the cyclist, couldnt see him until very late. Refectives are good to have but us cyclists need lights as well. Gives us a bad rap.
/rant over.
/rant over.
In reply to Bob:
Worth looking at how brightly some of those illuminate the *interior* of the car!
jk
> An interesting page here - http://road.cc/content/news/97193-big-roadcc-lights-test-2013 that allows you to compare different lights. Looks like you definitely get what you pay for - that fave of the cheapskate, the Cree, doesn't look too good.
Worth looking at how brightly some of those illuminate the *interior* of the car!
jk
In reply to ti_pin_man:
With the low cost of lights there is no excuse. I've got 3 cheapy rear lights, two cheapy front lights plus a decent front light now. That way I can guarantee that the battery in at least a couple of them will be up to strength.
With the low cost of lights there is no excuse. I've got 3 cheapy rear lights, two cheapy front lights plus a decent front light now. That way I can guarantee that the battery in at least a couple of them will be up to strength.
In reply to andy: Being an mtb'er I have encountered similar problems as I went for a superbright front light too (3peakslite Ingle-beam because it has a longer burn time on full). Even on the minimum setting and pointing it down just in ahead of the front wheel annoyed some drivers but I have found just covering it with my hand like the peak of a hat seems to solve the problem. Yeah, its a pain but so is an led light full in the eyes when you are driving.
As for dim lights/happy bus driver combo or vice-versa - see and be seen is my opinion. Why? I was a regular cycle commuter for about 15 years and had a few near misses with traffic pulling out from the left in the winter evening rush hour until I fitted 3 front lights in the hope it would give me the appearance of being a motorcycle!
As for dim lights/happy bus driver combo or vice-versa - see and be seen is my opinion. Why? I was a regular cycle commuter for about 15 years and had a few near misses with traffic pulling out from the left in the winter evening rush hour until I fitted 3 front lights in the hope it would give me the appearance of being a motorcycle!
In reply to eeoneiwish:
You won't be seen if you dazzle a driver.
You won't see if that dazzling causes the driver, in anger/frustration, to main-beam you. (Of course they shouldn't do this, two wrongs etc, but they *will*. That's like saying that you left your house unlocked this morning and are surprised when it gets robbed).
Good that you cover your light when approaching drivers, though personally I feel these super-powerful lights should have to, by law, be sold with a dim/dip switch like cars, or it should be an offence to use them on the public road, being reserved for off-road trails etc.
Neil
You won't be seen if you dazzle a driver.
You won't see if that dazzling causes the driver, in anger/frustration, to main-beam you. (Of course they shouldn't do this, two wrongs etc, but they *will*. That's like saying that you left your house unlocked this morning and are surprised when it gets robbed).
Good that you cover your light when approaching drivers, though personally I feel these super-powerful lights should have to, by law, be sold with a dim/dip switch like cars, or it should be an offence to use them on the public road, being reserved for off-road trails etc.
Neil
Post edited at 09:58
In reply to Frank the Husky:
whilst I agree that some lights can be too bright its still better to have too bright than nothing as some cyclists do. If you have too bright dip them a little and most of the time they are fine.
Mine have three brightness settings and the lowest is fine on urban roads, the second fine dipped on country lanes and the third perfect for offroad. the flash mode will probably cause epilectic fits, its like a 70's disco. I never use that.
Going back to the original point, on my commute last night there was two riders coming the opposite way with no lights and one joining from a side road with lights so dim they werent worth having on. If I get chance I do politely tell people they need lights or a new battery. Mostly theses are what I'd call casual cyclists, nipping to shops/work in street clothes and cheap bikes. I still love the fact they are riding but wish they would spend 20 quid on lights as it gives cyclists a bad rap.
whilst I agree that some lights can be too bright its still better to have too bright than nothing as some cyclists do. If you have too bright dip them a little and most of the time they are fine.
Mine have three brightness settings and the lowest is fine on urban roads, the second fine dipped on country lanes and the third perfect for offroad. the flash mode will probably cause epilectic fits, its like a 70's disco. I never use that.
Going back to the original point, on my commute last night there was two riders coming the opposite way with no lights and one joining from a side road with lights so dim they werent worth having on. If I get chance I do politely tell people they need lights or a new battery. Mostly theses are what I'd call casual cyclists, nipping to shops/work in street clothes and cheap bikes. I still love the fact they are riding but wish they would spend 20 quid on lights as it gives cyclists a bad rap.
In reply to ti_pin_man:
I can't see how any cyclist can themselves put up with the main front light flashing, other than in an area with very bright street lighting. An additional flashing light is probably a good thing though, as nothing says "bike" like a flashing light.
"whilst I agree that some lights can be too bright its still better to have too bright than nothing as some cyclists do"
Within reason. If a light dazzles drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, it should not be used on the road. If it's all you've got, position it so it doesn't (this is possible with almost any light - just dip it!)
Neil
I can't see how any cyclist can themselves put up with the main front light flashing, other than in an area with very bright street lighting. An additional flashing light is probably a good thing though, as nothing says "bike" like a flashing light.
"whilst I agree that some lights can be too bright its still better to have too bright than nothing as some cyclists do"
Within reason. If a light dazzles drivers, cyclists and pedestrians, it should not be used on the road. If it's all you've got, position it so it doesn't (this is possible with almost any light - just dip it!)
Neil
Post edited at 11:15
In reply to ti_pin_man:
I'm guessing with many such cyclists the answer you get involves the word "off"?
Neil
I'm guessing with many such cyclists the answer you get involves the word "off"?
Neil
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