/ shelter on Kinder

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paul mitchell - on 06 Feb 2014
I think a shelter on Kinder would be a good idea.There is a BMC meet next Wednesday at Grindleford,Maynard Arms,7.30 p m.
If you want a shelter on Kinder,turn up and say so.
It could be well disguised,but signposted.

Mountain rescuers will be there to talk to bmc.
There will also be a slide show of hard grit routes.
Andrew Deacon on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Interesting. Where would it likely be placed?
Orgsm on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Troll 0/10
Tony the Blade on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

A genius method of getting folks to read your post... 7/10 as it looks like a good evening (with or without a shelter debate)
paul mitchell - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to Andrew Deacon:

No troll.Had to get somebody down fast recently as they were very weak.
Just walking.
andy_e on 06 Feb 2014
Can we have a funicular and cafe whilst we are at it?
paul mitchell - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to andy_e:

I guess Kinder is perfectly safe.Never any blizzards or anything,or walkers or runners with twisted or broken ankles.Not ever.

I guess some of those against will have used mountain huts in the u k and abroad.
Not proposing anything fancy,just somewhere out of the weather.
imkevinmc - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Just the one?

Disguised?

What's your real agenda?
imkevinmc - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

So which was quicker, getting them down or getting them to a shelter.

I'm struggling to believe you've ever been on the plateau
deacondeacon - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

I can't see a problem with it personally. There's already a pretty big hut up there although it's locked. I imagine its for catering the game shooting. To have another hut next to it with no lock on the door is hardly intrusive.
paul mitchell - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Never been on the plateau?
I guess those new routes in my name were put up by my evil twin.
I have been on Kinder in a white out.Deep snow .
Had a map and compass.

The agenda is ...,doh,it's to get a shelter on Kinder.
How deviously simple.
ow arm - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:
I think an inobtrusive shelter built of local stone would be welcomed on any frequently visited more remote peak (as remote as you can in england and wales that it)
Something like the one on Foel Grach, hardly know its there
Post edited at 23:06
gethin_allen on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to ow arm:

You find simple stone wind break type shelters all over the lakes. The only issue I can see is erosion around the shelter, considering that a lot of the plateau is peat bog.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

given the navigational challenge of finding a well disguised shelter among dozens of square kilometres of featureless bog, in the sort of conditions that you're likely to want it, would it not be a safer bet and more reliable to just walk off the plateau and take shelter lower down?

were shelters on the cairngorm plateau not removed after a tragedy where people died trying to find them? (sorry if i've got that bit wrong)

best wishes

gregor
Tom V - on 06 Feb 2014
In reply to Orgsm:

Is Wrigley's Cott on Black Hill a troll from the C19th ?
Co1in H - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell: Nope, there's no real need imho, to build a shelter. Whilst I've not been up there for some years there was a bivi shelter by the downfall. No one has mentioned that. Has it gone or is there no one who actually knows the plateau?
It's a wild area, why start building things. What next a cafe!

deacondeacon - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Andrew Deacon:

It feels a little weird to be posting on a thread with someone of the same name :)
Andrew
Gael Force - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:
Where is Kinder, is it a small hill?
Post edited at 07:53
imkevinmc - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Gael Force:

Pretty much. Just over 600 metres with extensive views of Stockport.

And the vast majority of people, especially those who have underestimated it and might be at risk, keep to the path on the edge and can pretty quickly drop down.

Mal Grey - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

No thanks.

Apart from anything else (likely abuse of it, reliance by the inexperienced, difficulty to find on the plateau in the conditions it would be most needed in, precedence set, reduction of the "wilderness feeling"...) , where would you put it to cover all likely incidents? Its a big ol' place...and as mentioned in most situations descent to the nearest road would be the best plan. Carry a bothy bag.



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Blackmud on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

If you're going out and think you might need shelter from the weather in a pinch, surely the most reliable thing is to take a bothy bag or a bivvi bag. If you can navigate to a fixed point in a white out, surely you can navigate off the hill, and if you can't navigate off the hill knowing there's a god forsaken tin shed somewhere on the plateau won't do you much good if you can't navigate to it.
Darren Jackson - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Good idea. I propose that the shelter be sited in Hayfield or Edale.
imkevinmc - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to Darren Jackson:

In which pub?
SidharthaDongre - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to imkevinmc:

Ramblers.
Blackmud on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Yep, (Edit: well, more or less) a group of six schoolkids with two young adult leaders were aiming for corrour bothy via the plateau, got lost in wild weather and were forced to bivi overnight up there. Five kids and one of the leaders die., I don't think the Curran shelter was removed straight away but this event certainly made evident the danger of the plateau and probably contributed to the argument for its removal. I think it was considered too high a risk for people to consider it a destination and to go up onto the plateau in wild weather to stay in the shelter. Interestingly another group from the same school (I believe) who ended up raising the alarm apparently spent the night in the Curran shelter. If they hadn't I'd say there would be a decent chance they might have suffered the same fate.

However I'm not sure the Cairngorm/Ben Macdui plateau and its winter conditions can be quite compared with Kinder.
Post edited at 13:11
DerwentDiluted - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:
I'd say the potential time it could take someone to find a shelter would be better spent getting off the hill. There would also need to be more than one shelter as its a big place and someone needing help at the downfall is not served by a shelter anywhere other than at the downfall. Someone needing shelter should prioritise finding the edge path, not a grid reference in the groughs.
Post edited at 14:11
nbonnett - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

yep troll 0/10
Lusk - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Someone mention Kinder?!
Slightest excuse to air this again...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=568408&v=1#x7558392

Best post of 2013! :-)
Jake463 - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

I'm against the idea.
Whilst it would be lovely to have one my worry is that idiots will use it, leave litter and have fires etc. Kinder isn't that remote or difficult to get off, Bleaklow to the north being a much more serious place (and there is a shelter on there), and it is also a fairly sensitive landscape. One or two morons having a fire in summer or dropping a cigarette end after six cans of Skol and boom, loads of peat moor trashed. This is partly why the PDNPA forbids camping on Kinder and those of us who do bivvy up there do it discretely...
lb1dej - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

I was certainly glad of a shelter on Cader Idris in May last year as it was hailstorming.

Difficulty with Kinder is that there is no peak to speak of. I sheltered at Edale Cross in bad weather last October; no roof but was able to get out of the driving rain.

I think I'd prefer the storm shelter/bivvy bag option - if things get rough it'll be easy to find in your pack wherever you are. I always have mine with me but most people I see up there don't look as if they carry such a thing.

Kinder, like most of the Dark Peak, is not to be underestimated.

Dave
fellgazelle - on 07 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

There is a small shelter built from "local stone" just off the path on the Northern Edge. It's well disguised but it is there.
Lusk - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to Jake463:

+1 for that Jake.
Andrew Deacon on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to deacondeacon:

Nah, there are a lot of us Andrew Deacons out there with an interest in Kinder!
wilkesley - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to fellgazelle:

It only takes about 30mins from anywhere on Kinder to reach an edge. Just go either N or S. In bad conditions it would take a lot longer than that to find a hut. If you haven't got a compass, or can't tell what is N or S, you wouldn't be able to navigate to a hut anyway.
robandian - on 08 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

How many people have died on Kinder in the last 100 years due to not having a shelter - that answer will give you the info you need.
Rob Exile Ward on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

There used to be a rough shelter at the top of the Downfall. Nearly killed me.

I visited it one day and thought 'that would be a good place for an overnight stop'; went back two weeks later in atrocious conditions just as it was getting dark - too dark and rough to get back safely - to find that some b*stard had knocked it down. What was supposed to be a mild adventure turned into a overnight struggle in a poly bag.
paul mitchell - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

All very well for people with bivy bags,or who know the area,or who are not injured.

Otherwise a shelter would be great.Also would be good for mountain rescue team to store stuff,maybe.
Dr.S at work - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

I can see the storage argument, but that's all really. If you don't have bothy bag etc, are you going to know where the shelter is and how to get to it?
Orgsm on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Leave the wilderness alone, stop trying to industrialise our landscape. A shelter is not needed, nor wanted.

davidbeynon - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

I would worry about erosion myself, as it's soft ground apart from the edges. Most of the time the answer to "I'm in trouble on Kinder" is head due north or south, then down. I don;t think anyone who hasn't twigged that would be in a position to find the shelter anyway.

Bleaklow is a lot more serious.
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newhey - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to Tom V:

> Is Wrigley's Cott on Black Hill a troll from the C19th ?

Not much of it left these days sadly :(
imkevinmc - on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Public shelter and mountain rescue storage centre ?

What would mountain rescue need to store in this shelter that they don't mind losing?
Pepper on 09 Feb 2014
In reply to imkevinmc:

Folk are happy to knick stuff out of MRT locations in the middle of villages and cars, not sure placing it in even easier location would be wise.

Much easier to find an edge than a random hut. Want a hut for the truly lost and confused then hide it in Grains in the Water or the back of Alport Moor.
paul mitchell - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

As for a shelter being unsightly,have you seen the path erosion on Kinder?!
Fat Bumbly2 - on 10 Feb 2014
Nah, that's nothing. Have you seen the erosion of the bogs since the acid rain killed the moss?

Then look at the rock formations - those gritstone crags have taken a hell of a battering, some even resemble Henry Moore sculptures.


paul mitchell - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Local rescue team website here.http://kinderdownfall.co.uk/contact-us
paul mitchell - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Also,rescue reports.
http://kinderdownfall.co.uk/category/callouts/callout-callouts

two reports of rescues after midnight,in cold months.
paul mitchell - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Indeed the rock has been battered by the wind up there.What is that winter wind going to do to an injured person or someone who is too weak to get down?
MG - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Indeed the rock has been battered by the wind up there.What is that winter wind going to do to an injured person or someone who is too weak to get down?

How would a shelter help if you weren't right next to it.

If you can walk just keep going in a particular direction - you won't come to much harm on Kinder and will eventually find the edge and a way day.

If you can't walk it's kind of tough.
Orgsm on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Also,rescue reports.


> two reports of rescues after midnight,in cold months.

They were list on the plateau , they wouldn't have found a shelter , cos if they could they wouldn't be lost. One group was at Edale Cross, so if they can't recognise that...
MG - on 10 Feb 2014
In reply to paul mitchell:

Sorry your profile and email seem a bit "odd" so I won't reply to you direct. You wrote

"Had a look at your profile.I see you are into mountaineering.
I guess you would not be averse to being rescued by helicopter in
mountains,if you were in need?

So why oppose a humble shelter or two?"

For the reasons given above - shelters won't help if people can't get to them and if people can get to them there is no need for them.
Fat Bumbly2 - on 10 Feb 2014

What is that winter wind going to do to an injured person or someone who is too weak to get down?

Make him feel uncomfortable, but of course he or she will have gear to help survival. They could of course go to the filthy vandalised hovel* some well meaning idiot built up there, but it was on the far side of the plateau, further than the shelter of lower ground. This idiocy stopped in the 1970s for very good reasons (see above)

For crying out loud, this is Kinder you are on about... What next, Long Mynd, Cannock Chase? I'd stay at home if I were you.

*written from bitter experience of the Cairngorms in the 1970s. Cannot beat frozen p1sh in a concrete box.
Post edited at 22:43

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