UKC

Hi folks.

Putting together an itinerary for a Mont Blanc attempt next year and looking to put a half decent few acclimatisation prep days and glacier travel/crevasse rescue days before attempting the Gouter route. I'd like to encompass a day up the Aiguille du Midi and Vallee Blanche ideally as it looks fantastic up there.

I'm just looking for advice really and suggestions preferably from those who've experience in the area and can recommend good things to do. I've seen similar itinerary's where people will trek up the side of the Glacier des Bossons to La Jonction then back down. Then up to the Aiguille du Midi the day after that. Is this too high of a jump for 2 days?

All thoughts welcomed and appreciated!

In reply to WJV0912:
Everyone is different but generally the longer and more gradual your acclimatisation is the more likely you are to enjoy it and the better chance of success.

The weather will often dictate what you do, I'd personally plan on taking three weeks out in the Alps for the major summits.

Some people fail to acclimatise well, a lucky few acclimatise quickly.

If you want to enjoy it, as a minimum I'd advise at least week doing acclimatisation peaks and high treks before attempting the big peaks and huts over 3500 - 4000 metres on the following week, weather permitting!

I spend a lot of time in the area and often buy a season pass, so up and down the Aiguille du Midi like a yoyo, but would struggle to do some of the itineraries suggested by some of the big commercial companies, I suppose they get repeat business!

In reply to WJV0912:

Perhaps a trip up Gran Paradiso...

In reply to HeMa:

Not a bad idea, but it is important to be aware that Mont Blanc is a lot higher than the Gran Paradiso. It is a big jump from 4000m to 4800. In the Mont Blanc massif, going up at least Mont Blanc du Tacul, better Mont Maudit is more realistic acclimitisation practice (usual caveat about the approach slopes of these 2, easy but not safe!).

You could also spend (very expensive), time at the Cosmiques hut, as sleeping high will be very beneficial.

In reply to WJV0912:

Cheers for the replies folks.

Went up to 3500m last year in 3 days and seemed okay albeit we were spitting bloody saliva but nothing too severe.

I think I'll heed the advice and have a look at a trek up Gran Paradiso beforehand. What's public transport like for getting through the Mont Blanc tunnel as I'm not planning on taking a car?

In reply to WJV0912:

There's a bus running from Cham to Courmayer, so that's easy.

As for gettin' to the start of GP climb, that can be a bit more difficult. Hopefully some one will correct me on that one.

One option as well would be to trek from Midi to Torino (and back).

In my opinion, it's better to do something while up, than just lounge around. It'll also give ya a better idea on how your body is coping.

In reply to WJV0912:

Acclimatisation is a very strange and unpredictable science/black art. On some trips I have struggled to get out of the valleys. Summited Mt Blanc at the end of September on a quick 6 day trip, with no problems whatsoever. (this is not a recommendation by the way)

Day 1, landed at Geneva, drove to Chamonix, got drunk!
Day 2, Walked up to Montenvers, had a bimble on the glacier, got the train down.
Day 3, Afternoon train up to Nid-D-Aigle, walked up to bivi at Forresters Hut.
Day 4, Ditched camping gear at Forresters, up the ridge to the Gouter (you need to book by phone a month in advance)
Day 5, Up at three, summit for 9:30, back in Valley/pub for 15:30
Day 6, Crippling Hangover, Home.

I have struggled to get over 4000M in a week before and probably will do again.

In reply to butteredfrog:

Haha, a short trip! What's accommodation prices like in Chamonix?

In reply to HeMa:

Midi to Torino sounds good. How long would that take do you think?

In reply to WJV0912:

A night in Albert 1er followed by an ascent of Aig. du Tour (3540m) would be a good start to getting acclimatised and getting some crucial experience.

IIRC the recommendation is 300-500m in a day. eg sleep at 2800, climb a 3300-3500 peak, then sleep at 3100.

I did a 4000er after one night in a 2900 hut and was utterly stuffed. I'd say that a week of steadily building up to over 4000m would be essential. Then MB the following week. Basicallly what Ron suggested (and he knows his stuff).

In reply to WJV0912:

I found the midi-plan traverse a good one to do as it stays high for a long time and its accessible. We walked out down the mer du glace for a long fitness day.

In reply to WJV0912:

One of our party is a regular Chamonix ski bum! he sorted the apartment out for us in Cham Sud at mates rates. So couldn't tell you really, sorry.

All fantastic stuff cheers guys! I shall look at all of these route ideas along with the time I'll be out there for and come up with a plan.

Ideally one or two or the acclimatization days will encompass some glacier travel training.

If anyone could throw out their experiences I'd be more than grateful. I'm trying to decide whether or not to camp and whether it's worth hiring a car while I'm out there. Trying to get together a rough cost so I know how much I need to earn this year haha.

In reply to WJV0912:


Er, that is a bit of an oxymoron. If anyone with me was spitting bloody saliva that seemed to be primarily due to altitude, I would be very worried and trying to get them down as fast as possible, wondering if something seriously medically bad was in the process of happening.

In fact I have done just this with a British party that had gone straight up Mont Blanc du Tacul immediately after driving from the UK, where the girl was collapsed in the snow on the summit, moaning. Her boyfriend asked us for some asparins, we advised him in no uncertain terms that he should get her down, now, and we would help. We led her down the rocky bit near the summit with him belaying her, my mate belaying me, and me placing her feet for her in turn. After about 100 vertical m of descent, she was coming round fast and we let them head off.

Which does emphasise one point about acclimitisation routes, make sure that they are easily reversible if it looks as if things are going pear-shaped.

In reply to HeMa:


You then need a bus Courmayuer>Aosta (1 hour and frequent). Then there's three buses a day from Aosta to Valsavarenche. Not as bad as it sounds and the buses are reliable.

In reply to Simon4:

Aye I guess but I was with some experienced guys who said it wasn't anything to worry about. They did mention we had gained height a bit too fast. Something about the capillaries in the mouth bursting with less pressure? I don't know really. I generally felt really good albeit a bit tired. We did drop down shortly after.

The rough itinerary I've put together is as follows:

Day 1: Fly from Birmingham to Geneva. Transfers to Chamonix.

Day 2: Trek from Le Tour to Albert Premier Hut (2702m). Possible use of cable car.

Day 3: Albert Premier Hut (2702m) to Aiguille du Tour (3540m) then back down to Chamonix.

Day 4: Take the cable car to Aiguille du Midi (3842m)

Day 5: Rest Day

Day 6: Les Houches to Bellevue via cable car. Bellevue to Nid d’Aigle (2372m). Ascend to Gouter Hut (3835m).

Day 7: Summit Mont Blanc (4810m) then back down for another night in the Gouter Hut (3835m).

Day 8: Descend to Chamonix.

Day 9: Transfers to Geneva. Fly from Geneva to Birmingham.


Any thoughts?

In reply to WJV0912:


Don't take the cable car. There is a much more pleasant path all the way from Le Tour. Go at about 2 o'clock across the meadow from bottom cable car station and follow the path all the way - it meets the moraine higher up.

In reply to WJV0912:

2 o'clock direction - the path is there 24hrs a day

In reply to MG:

Presumably that's the one I can see on google maps across the field ?

In reply to WJV0912:

That's the one. The one from the cable car is a bit drab and not such good exercise.

In reply to WJV0912:
Thoughts.

Much better on first route to go to the Argentierre hut (check that it is open, it was being redeveloped earlier), then try the Glacier du Millieu route on the Aiguille d'Argentierre. Nearly 4000m, much better acclimitisation than the Aig du Tour. I am also not sure that just catching the cable car up the midi does much for you at all.

Still too short a timespan to my mind, the body does not adjust that rapidly while it makes no allowance for bad weather or fubars. Mont Blanc is really quite high, most people will suffer horribly at that rate of ascent.

In reply to Simon4:

I realise it might be a bit much to ask but this is my first visit to the area and it's all unfamiliar and quite confusing. Is there any chance you could post what you think would be a good itinerary for acclimatization then a Mont Blanc attempt?

In reply to WJV0912:
Does it have to be Mont Blanc? There are many better mountains to climb. I would suggest not fixating on anything in particular but instead have lots of objectives that you fit in according to fitness conditions etc. BTW, it *always* rains in Chamonix. If you are short of time, try further east (Saas?), or south (Italy), the weather will be better.

In reply to MG:

Simply because I'd like to but I'm fully prepared to change plans if the weather denies it. It doesn't have to be Mont Blanc but tbh I'm unlikely to have a hell of a lot of time out there and just want to get a plan together so I can see roughly how much it would cost.

In reply to Simon4:
Much as it hurts me to agree with you Simon thats a much better idea. Although I think an even better variation is to take the last Grand Montets cable car up to the top station, bivvy in the station overnight and early next morning stash gear and climb the Petite Verte before it gets busy with first cable car crowds. Then drop down to the Argentiere Glacier and do the Millieu Glacier the following day.
An easy overnight at 3300m Down the next day then up again to 4000m then down again enjoying every moment of the descent down the glacier !

In reply to L.A.:

Agh too many ideas and I don't speak French, haha! How about if I put in an ascent of Gran Paradiso in between Aiguille du Tour and Mont Blanc?

In reply to WJV0912: As others have said dont become obsessed with one big objective Go out there and enjoy yourself, learn about alpinism,find out about how different it is to anything you`ll have done before in the UK, most importantly be safe,have fun and be able to go back again.

In reply to L.A.:

I won't do it's just nice to have an idea of what we want to do/help build a rough price list. Whether we stick to it or do something completely different will be dictated when we arrive but can't help to have some planning.

In reply to WJV0912:


Assuming you want to stay in the Chamonix/Mont Blanc massif area, not to consider anywhere much else (the Grand Paradiso is obviously not in the MB massif, but not that far away) :

A possible first outing would be (does involve starting from Switzerland and not getting back to your startpoint)

Day 1 : lightly equipped, walk up to Cabane du Trient, spend the night at 3170 m.
Day 2 : cross the Plateau du Trient (obviously glaciated, but not likely to be badly crevassed), cross the Col du Tour (3282), descend toward Albert Premier hut and then to Argentierre.
Day 3 : easier day, to allow your body to adapt to the challenge of altitude the previous day (something like easy cragging in the valley, or possibly catch a cable car up to the Aiguille Rouge and do a rock route up there, with a superb view across to the main MB massif.
Day 4 : Mont Blanc du Tacul from the first cablecar, then down
Day 5 : rest in valley, let your body adapt to the altitude
Day 6 : approach one of the MB routes
Day 7 : route and hopefully down the same day

Allows not much margin for weather, buggered-upness, huts being full etc. As I mentioned, Aiguille d'Argentière is an alternative to Tacul, at 3900 it is reasonably high but not as high as Tacul at 4250. You could substitute the Domes du Miages for the first route, starting from the Conscripts hut at 2600m, also allows the Aiguille du Tre-la-tete at 3900m. It would be possible to spend 2 days at the Conscrits, on day 1 do the Trelatete, on day 2 do the Domes traverse. The Aiguille des Glaciers is also an option from that area, but more obviously from Italy (Robert Blanc hut). Doing 2 routes from the Conscrits means you get more route bang for your hut-approach buck. The Dome du Miages traverse is said to be a magnificent classic expedition, but not too hard, in a relatively remote part of the massif.

So there are some initial thoughts for you! Not fully worked out, I would spend a fair bit longer working out route details, escape routes, etc if I were doing these myself (apart from the bits I already know).

In reply to L.A.:

I feel your pain. And relish it. May you be tormented for 10,000 years in purgatory - and then rejected by heaven and sent to hell anyway.

In reply to Simon4:
Cheers bud that looks good! Although I would like a base point. However I'm considering taking the car now. I'll have to look at the map and see where all these places you've listed are. Thanks for posting this up mate, it'll surely help.

Shortly before I read that I updated my own list. Trying to keep it fairly simple what do you think of this?

Day 1: Fly from Birmingham to Geneva. Transfers to Chamonix.

Day 2: Trek from Le Tour to Albert Premier Hut (2702m).

Day 3: Albert Premier Hut (2702m) to Aiguille du Tour (3540m) then back down to Chamonix.

Day 4: Bus: Chamonix > Courmayer > Aosta > Valsavarenche. Trek to Chabod Hut and spend the night.

Day 5: Summit Gran Paradiso and return to Chabod Hut for the night.

Day 6: Descend to Valsaverenche and make way back to Chamonix.

Day 7: Rest day

Day 8: Les Houches to Bellevue via cable car. Bellevue to Nid d’Aigle (2372m). Ascend to Gouter Hut (3835m).

Day 9: Summit Mont Blanc (4810m) then back down for another night in the Gouter Hut (3835m).

Day 10: Descend to Chamonix.

Day 11: Transfers to Geneva. Fly from Geneva to Birmingham.


Though I'm starting to think it's bad as it doesn't sleep anywhere above 3000m :/

In reply to Simon4: Thank you Simon, gracious as ever. However Ive already been to hell after a trip in a Hillman Imp (was it not?) Since then the devil dont scare me

In reply to L.A.: How is your experience with a Ferrari Diablo?

I once took the engine out of a Hillman Imp and dismembered it. An almost car. Almost a mini, but not quite. Almost sensibly designed and good value as an urban run-around, but not quite.

Anyway, burn baby burn!

In reply to Simon4: Dismembered it on a wall in Llanberis as I recall.
I cant imagine you would have a Ferrari Diablo more likely a Ford Mondeo
Must meet up again sometime to trade insults face to face

In reply to WJV0912:

That plan can work. The most obvious flaw, as I initially mentioned, is that although the GP is good for altitude, it is still a lot below Mont Blanc. The extra 700m really make a difference, which will make you :

a) slow and clumsy
b) miserable and possibly throwing up

high up the route.

Quite a lot of people will respond and say they have done this, and were fine, to which my response would be "good luck to you, very happy to hear it". But expect the altitude jump to hit you hard, then if you are one of the lucky ones and it doesn't, it will be a pleasant surprise.

In reply to L.A.:

This is hell, nor are we out of it!

In reply to Simon4:
Where is the 'first cable car' you refer to in the Mont Blanc du Tacul route suggestion?

Also I can't seem to find anywhere else but who owns the Chabod Hut? I want to know if I'll get the discount rates with joining the AAC.

In reply to WJV0912:

I am watching this thread with great interest as it is on my list for this year.

I don't have a partner yet so can I tag along?

In reply to WJV0912:


Ah, you haven't been paying attention, have you?

In reply to russtyg:
We're doing it in 2015 mate but as long you don't mind people with an offensive sense of humour and can deal with constant piss taking then I don't see a problem :P

In reply to jon:

It wouldn't surprise me if I've missed something as I've just spent the last 6 hours trying to make sense of 100s of different French websites

In reply to WJV0912:

Fair enough pal

In reply to russtyg:

Sorry bud I didn't mean to sound like I was shooting you down, you're more than welcome to come, I'm just pre-warning you as it wouldn't be the safest idea trying to attempt something like this if personalities were likely to clash!

In reply to WJV0912:



There's a big conspicuous cable car leaving the centre of Chamonix and going to the Aiguille du Midi. No wonder the French websites are posing a problem.

In reply to jon:

I thought it would be from the Aiguille du Midi however I was a bit confused as to why he hadn't just said the Aiguille du Midi so I then thought he might have meant from the Plan de l'Aiguille however I couldn't find this on the maps. As there was confusion, I thought it appropriate to ask him to clear it up. I'm grateful for the helpful part of your response however you can keep your insinuation that I am stupid to yourself.

In reply to WJV0912:

Oh, I'm sorry. It was simply that I read this above:

In reply to jon:

This is true, however I refer to non-malicious banter! It's hard to gauge how things are intended when written down on the internet though so perhaps I jumped to soon to assume you were doing more than just light heartedly taking the piss, sorry I wish no malice!

In reply to WJV0912:

Get as hill fit as you possibly can months in advance.
If you like a scoop, walk with a slight hangover to mimic altitude sickness.
My trip was:--
Day 1) fly Liverpool to Geneva . Meet guide . Drink
Day 2) cable car Aguile du Midi, descend to Cosmiques hut. Tea and a dram
Day 3) Cosmiques arête ten descend to valley . Driiink
Day 4) swim due to rain
Day 5) cable car to a small peak( can't remember its name) as it rained. Could see my Blanc as weather picked up. Binned small peak for Mt Blanc. Got to the train at 11. Walked all te way to the too and back to Goitier hut in 9 hrs. Wine.
Day 6) descended. Drank with new friends , pulled bird, stated up till 3 am, went airport for hairy dog. Simple

In reply to Skol:


Day 3) Quite possibly die.


Much of the specific advice in this thread is probably fairly pointless because everyone acclimatises differently. The only sensible advice is to take it as it comes. Only aim to go about 500m max higher each time you go up and stick to routes where you can just turn round and descend quickly if you feel crap. Mont Blanc as your fourth time up might be a realistic aim, though some will manage fewer. Aim to sleep higher and climb higher each time you go up.

In reply to Skol:

Hahaha bloody brilliant. I'll try that!

In reply to WJV0912:

It's private so you won't. It's very comfortable though and if you can afford the Midi cable car it won't be a problem

Try googling Rifugio Chabod.

In reply to Skol:

I knew I was separated from my twin at birth.

In reply to WJV0912:
Seriously though. That was my week. I must admit to feeling a bit shit past the Goutier. Headaches etc, but that was probably the alcohol as much as anything. The guide only took 1litre of water, which I thought daft. Use an insulated 3 litre hydration bottle and drink!!!

In reply to butteredfrog:
I worried for weeks about acclimatising, and think it's overrated if you're fit, at those altitudes.
My mother said she had the wrong son for years!

In reply to Skol:


This is irresponsible bollocks. You were just lucky. And although you can never be too fit, there is no correlation with ability to acclimatise and indeed a danger that fitness allows you to go inadvisedly high quickly before the sometimes delayed nasty affects of altitude kick in and cause really dangerous problems.

In reply to MG:

I Wouldn't say that route is pleasant with a heavy bag and a scorching sun on your back. It's pretty steep and exposed in places and probably only saves you an hr at most in time.
I did this route this summer and we all agreed it wasn't the best idea we'd had. Nice views mind!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Bollocks yourself, Robert .
I don't think I was 'lucky' at all. I had a UAIGM guide, who was happy with my fitness and ' acclimatisation', which I described above. I had mild symptoms of headache at around 3000m, but otherwise coped well. We overtook all other parties, not through bravado, but through fitness. It's not the Himalaya FFS!

Oh yeah, nearly forgot the bad cigar habit!

In reply to Skol:

It's well established that there is no correlation between fitness and acclimatisation. You just happened to acclimatise well and be fit. It is bit irresonsible to suggest people should get into positions where they can't descend quickly if they get altitude sickness and MB is plenty high enough for serious altitude sickness.

In reply to Skol:



Well bollocks to the UIAGM guide. Probably just wanted a quick buck and was secretly hoping you would be so incapacitated that he could take your money and have a day off.

On that schedule I and others I know would have been very, possibly dangerously, ill at the Cosmiques, and quite possibly been unable to make it back to the telepherique and been evacuated to the valley where I would have wasted the rest of the week feeling completely f*****.

It makes me genuinely f****** angry when ignorant people like you who are lucky enough to acclimatise easily spout dangerous shite that could potentially endanger inexperienced people genuinely asking for advice.

In reply to Robert Durran:
It's not shite though. 3 other parties with similar 'acclimatisation' did the same. I'm not advocating it , just saying that we managed it without rising and descending . Tough shit if you can't !!
With regards to the guide, he was top notch, and, Scottish. He even REFUNDED me £200 for the missed day, which I spent swimming and on the piss!

In reply to Skol:


Plenty others would not. As I said earlier everyone acclimatises differently.


Your earlier post: "I worried for weeks about acclimatising, and think it's overrated if you're fit, at those altitudes."

That is not "just saying". It is dangerously pontificating from a position of ignorance and inexperience.


Indeed it is. Not sure what your point is though.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Rob, this is just like the folk who wander across the Gouter Couloir and see no rockfall and say there's nothing to it. The same folk who wander around on glaciers solo and say there's no crevasse danger as they haven't fallen in one. I've only known one person who was unaffected by altitude on MB. He came from Sidney - sea level! - and only days after leaving Aus stood on the summit of MB. Bastard!

In reply to Skol:



I managed to win £100 on a scratchcard once: everyone should buy one.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I agree

From my experience it was true, and, for several others.

My guide was experienced to think it justifiably feasible.


You seemed perturbed that it was possible?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Everyone acclimatises differently with every trip to altitude, we all acknowledge this. As I posted earlier last years Mt Blanc trip was on a very similar timeframe to Skol's (including the drinking). Other trips I have struggled.

Personal experience is key, if you feel rubbish and are getting worse its time to turn round and head down, as Skol says its the Alps, barring other factors (Weather), you are only a couple of hours from the pub (valley) anyway. i.e. you can shed the necessary height easily. If you lack that experience of altitude and its effects, or can't turn round and lose height, you are probably on the wrong route for your level of experience (i.e. not the tourist route up mt Blanc)

As Skol says its NOT the Hymalayas FFS!

Cheers Adam
(Spent a lot of time feeling ill in various parts of the world)

In reply to Skol:


Your apparently very limited experience. You just don't get it do you? It is no reason for your dangerous dismissal of the dangers of altitude.


If he took you straight up to spend a night at the Cosmiques with no previous knowledge of your ability to acclimatise, he was, in my opinion, downright irresponsible. And I don't care what nationality he was.


No. I am well aware that it is possible for quite a number of people. But, as I said before, you just don't get it, do you?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I get it perfectly well Robert .

You are entitled to it. He is still alive though, with no fatalities or injuries that I'm aware of.

So. For someone with an experienced other, who are prepared to turn back if the route is affecting health, you dismiss minimal acclimatisation as folly in the alps?

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Which shop?

In reply to WJV0912:

Allowing 11 days is more like it, although it is still a bit short on the timespan.

Chamonix itself is expensive and most of the easier routes are very crowded (midi-plan), crap and crowded (cosmiques), or quite hard for the grade (courtes/Pt Isabella unless very snowy).

The Domes des Miages is a great easy classic though, super first route. Not too hard but very scenic. I've not done the TrelaTete peaks but they look good so Simon's suggestion of 2 nights at the conscrits hut to start is a good one. Then maybe Gran Paradiso, then Tacul from the lift and then MB would be a good order.

Another option would be to acclimatise in Saas Grund, loads of classic easier 4000m peaks and great warm up rock routes on the Jegihorn, try Alpendurst at UK severe, 400m route to a 3200m peak with bolted belays and a walk off.

In reply to LakesWinter:

At last - someone else who's realised! I've never understood the completely blinkered Alps = Chamonix mentality.

In reply to Skol:


£200? For a day? Are you sure he had a real badge? When was this - 20 years ago? I'm buggered if I'd have refunded ANYTHING if you'd just been on the piss.

In reply to Skol:

No you quite clearly don't.


Everyone's minimal acclimatisation is different. That is the whole point. Through long experience I know what my own is.

The bit I find shocking is that your guide took you straight up the Midi telepherique and committed you to a night in the Cosmiques apparently with no knowledge of your previous acclimatisation record (if you even had one). That is not the same and far more potentially dangerous than plodding slowly uphill and then simply turning round if you feel shit.

In reply to WJV0912: We did MB a few years ago and our prep was Pointe Lachenal, Cosmiques Arete, MB du Tacul and a rest day then up MB. On refelection I would do it differently next time and include say The Aig De M, Petite Verte then go up the midi. At the end of the day its a holiday and your looking to enjoy it so if the weather breaks before you do MB at least you will have had a few enjoyable days building up to it. MB by the Gouter/Bosses ridge isnt the most exciting route in the world.

RN

In reply to LakesWinter:


In fairness, the Cosmiques is crap because it is crowded. Were it not for the Mongol hordes, it would be a great little route, as it clearly once was.


One virtue of the Conscrits hut is that it is likely to be much more like a genuine Alpine hut, with people committed to helping mountaineers than in hotel style huts like the Albert Prem. The difference in feel between these sort of still remote, idiosyncratic huts and the hotel style is immense, another delightful one that comes to mind is the Refuge Adele Planchard in the Ecrins.

Generally a much more pleasant and mountain experience (though the hut is apparently new and high-tech).

http://en.lescontamines.com/mountain-refuge-hut-les-conscrits.html
http://www.savoie-mont-blanc.com/en/offre/fiche/mountain-refuge-hut-les-con...

Good account of the Domes du Miages traverse here :

http://www.cosleyhouston.com/miage.htm

One very good point made above, by a number of people, is that while climbers have always done preparation routes as "training", it is important to view them as routes in their own right. There a 2 reasons for this, first if the weather all goes South, or someone gets injured, if you have done a worthwhile route already, you have something in the bank. Second, if you view a route as "just a warm up", you can get sloppy and casual, that is when accidents and carelessness can happen, rather than giving each route the respect it deserves.

I tend to think on an Alpine trip that one good route, that is break even, 2 puts you in credit, any more and you are doing very well. So don't belittle or trivialise the "training" routes, value them for themselves.

I was wondering if the Aiguille des Glaciers might be possible from the same area, but a brief glance at Glace, Neige et Mixte (never the easiest book to use!), suggests not (although not clear from the map why). The Tre la Tete, however, should be quite doable by a PD route.

In reply to Simon4:


Maybe because it's just easier from the Robert Blanc?

In reply to jon:


Yeah, it was 15 yrs ago! 5 days a grand. Booked on recommendation. He had a badge. He refunded for the bad weather and that we hadn't been able to do much. I won't name him as he seems to be getting rebuke from Robert.

In reply to rossn:

. MB by the Gouter/Bosses ridge isnt the most exciting route in the world.

Its a bit like walking in the Howgills really, your immediate surroundings aren't that interesting, but the views are exceptional.

Adam

In reply to Skol:

No please don't name him! I would only ever refund if I cancelled a day - for whatever reason. If the client cancelled then tough. If the weather was bad similarly that's not my fault, but I'd try to find something to do anyway.

In reply to butteredfrog:


Oh, that's sad.

In reply to jon:


I don't intend to. He was under no obligation to refund, but did as I went on my own and we hadn't done much. I wouldn't have minded if he had forgotten to send me a cheque.

Jon, if you're a guide would you have taken me straight up to Cosmiques , and then straight up Mont Blanc? I personally have no animosity to the guide, even though Robert is doubting his judgement. It was my first time in the Alps,and although hill fit, hadn't been higher than 8000ft when skiing 2 months before. We hung around at the midi for an hour prior to descending to the Cosmiques . I personally don't think it would have been too much of a hardship to get back to the cable if I became ill.

In reply to Skol:


Well having got someone back in the circumstances described above, I beg to differ.

It is a long trudge back up to the midi cablecar, draining enough when you are not knocked out by altitude, also pretty narrow and exposed in places, with the mile long drop down the North face of the midi off to the right. It was quite fraught for us bringing this girl down from Tacul summit, while her boyfriend would have been in trouble if we had not been there and had not offered to help. I would not have liked to have had to do the same up to the midi station.

Not wishing to play the "argument from authority", but it is wise to take advice from the likes of Jon (and also Robert, though he can be quite "robust" in how he expresses his views).

In reply to Skol:

Well Rob is right in what he says about the problems of altitude 'even in the Alps'. Everyone acclimatises differently and occasionally altitudes of 3600m (Cosmiques) can cause problems. As a guide who has just met you I'd have no way of knowing if you were one of the few that are apparently unaffected by altitude. My approach would be to put you off. Do something lower first.

The Aussie to whom I referred higher in the thread was absolutely adamant that we should go straight up there and stay there. I agreed on condition that if he didn't feel well then a) that was his fault and b) we'd abandon plans and get down as quick as possible. I think we stayed first night in the hut and did Midi > Plan > Midi the first day, then MB the second and back down to the Midi. (There does seem something missing there as I thought we'd had three nights there... the Cosmiques Arête, perhaps?) Ironicaly it was me who had the headache on MB despite it being almost the end of the season!

In reply to Skol:
I personally don't think it would have been too much of a hardship to get back to the cable if I became ill.

Sorry if this seems like ganging up on you but that is simply wrong. Fortunately I have never been too badly affected but I have had a partner who has. Even moderate altitude sickness is very debilitating. Going up even 50m would have been out of the question let along 250m along a knife edge. It also makes you clumsy, again not good on a narrow arete. And this was at <3000m

In reply to MG:

I used to find it amusing seeing large groups of Japanes tourists being herded around the tunnels of the Midi by a leader carrying a small emergency oxygen cylinder. In retrospect it seems eminently sensible. Of course they're always well acclimatised having done the Jungfraujoch the day before!

In reply to MG:


Fair point . As I've said, that was my first time in the Alps or at altitude. I'm not going to have a downer on the guide, I thought he was excellent. Hopefully he had a contingency plan if I didn't cope with the altitude, but it's history anyway .
I do have an understanding that altitude affects people no matter how fit, and did have mild symptoms with exertion a that altitude.
Are there any studies on fitness related to altitude sickness at French Alp altitude?

When researching for the trip, I joined a mountaineering club. Several members advised to not just turn up and get a French guide. Reason being, they are mercenary and will take anyone up for the money. I'm not casting aspersions on French guides, but I consider my guide to have professional and cautious in every way
Ps. I stuck my neck out, so if I'm genuinely wrong, then I don't mind people ganging up

In reply to Skol:


Yes, though quite where to lay ones hands on it I'm not sure. A part of the Margherita Refuge on top of Monte Rosa at 4500m is given over to the study of it.

In reply to Simon4:

Ok. I can't remember it too well other than a knife edge ridge and a crevasse field.



You're not. I'm not really after Roberts advice, as I have no plan to go again. I am just intrigued now. Organised trips that I looked at were of 2 weeks. I didn't have this time, or, cash. The guide thought it feasible to do Mt Blanc in a week , after he'd seen how well I coped with crampons/altitude etc.i had no intention of bumbling up there and not taking advice.
Given this, do you think it was folly to attempt it in a week? As I've said, several other groups achieved it. One lad was a little more sick and didn't eat on the way down, but he was ok. Surely you've got to expect a little hardship and not feeling 'quite right'?

In reply to Skol:


Highly optimistic, and I think you were lucky to handle the altitude relatively well. 4800m is remarkably high, well toward Himalayan altitudes and I remember the top of the Bosses ridge being like a procession of the damned, with unaclimitised (and possibly unfit), people in a long string being scarcely able to take another step.

That you aclimitised well is lucky, some people always will do, they are very fortunate. But it is not the norm, which is what I (and several others), were trying to get across - altitude can be totally debilitating, to the point where the person affected can become almost a dead weight, incapable of thinking or moving with any coherence. Hence my story about the girl on Tacul, I was literally placing her feet and supporting her down, while the others belayed us. She didn't have to go very far down at all to recover, but was in a very bad way when we found them.


Its not uncommon, and I have been hit by altitude plenty of times. But the best thing in that situation, especially if you are trimming the time to the minimum, is to be on a route where if it gets too bad, you can just turn around and go down.

In reply to jon:

I'll have a look for it.
I'm not trying to belittle the opinions above from experienced alpinists, or advise people that they can do the same. I am not backtracking Robert.
My experience was that, yes I felt a bit rough, but was pretty fit at the time. The guide did say ' that if you weren't so fit, then I wouldn't have taken you straight to the top.' He also told an acquaintance that I ' was the fittest client he had taken.'
Given two people . One being fit, the other fat unfit and both not acclimatised, who would fair best?
From the Tete Rouse hut , we overtook a lot of fat Germans throwing up . They overnighted at Goutier and descended the next day. They were rough , but the weather window had also gone.

Ps. I think that getting used to walking uphill whilst feeling rough through alcohol, toughened me up to keep going when I didn't feel too good? No studies on this I'm sure

In reply to Simon4:

To be fair on the Gouter route, you can just turn round and go back down.

In reply to butteredfrog:

I think maybe Simon was assuming having to get back up to the Midi?

In reply to jon:

Exactly so.

In reply to Simon4:

Thanks Simon.
What I'm struggling with now is that ? Jon said above, that even at the end of a season, he got symptoms of AMS. I can't find any good articles at the minute, but some googling came up with the fact that anyone, at anytime, whether acclimatised or not, can get AMS.

Does the flight over help with prevention and offer some acclimatisation? Apparently commercial cabin pressures are equivalent to 2500 m?

Also, playing Devils Advocate and not wishing to offend, have some guides played up the acclimatisation need in order to make more money from clients?

In reply to Skol:

An hour and a half sitting still at 2500m isn't going to do a thing for you, sadly!

Now then, I lived at 1300m in Vallorcine for 23 years and even that meagre altitude seemed to give me a really good base level of acclimatisation. I could just go out at any time and go to over 4000m with zero problems. However, I've always had the odd problem above 4300m so that last pull up to MB either from the col de la Brenva or from the Vallot has always been hard, sometimes resulting in a pulsating headache in the back of my head and down my neck.

No, guides aren't overplaying acclimatisation to make money.

In reply to jon:


So, flying over Mt Blanc first doesn't work? Sorry.


That's interesting. And also. I went straight to the lakes on my return, hoping that my altitude training would have me flying past punters. I was competitive at the time, sadly. But, I was quite slow, and felt no carry over effect.

Thanks. I had hoped not

In reply to Skol:


Just proves how odd altitude can be.

Last Spring, I was on a ski-touring trip and on the second day out from London I went up to a hut at 3150m with a partner who was a good deal fitter than me and lived in the Alps, so was ski-fit and had been to some altitude. I was slow going up but quite capable of keeping going, then we skied up 2 3700m peaks, where I was fine (but still slower than him - of course I may have been motivated on the first peak by the affectionate cuddle from a very pretty German girl on the summit!). Then the last trip out, we were heading for a hut at 3050m and at about 2800m I was absolutely knocked out - hyperventilating, light-headed, quite unable to move. Just a 100 vertical m below the hut, which was well below where I had already been. He had to leave the hut carry my sack and nurse me along.

So it can be very surprising in its effects, even when you think you should be fine.


No.

When it hits, it really hits and it is prudent to assume that it will and regard yourself as very fortunate when it does not, and that is not taking into account some of the really nasty effects, i.e. HAPE and HACE, which can certainly apply at MB altitude (though rare there). I have before now gone straight to 4000m on a kill or cure basis, I would not do that now, not just because I seem to be acclimitising more slowly than I used to.

In reply to Skol:


No, but that is not to say that I have not seem some very dodgy tricks from the guides of one particular nation which shall be nameless but for sake of argument will be referred to as the Fifth Republic to mess their clients around. But they did not involve exaggerating the effect of altitude.

In reply to Simon4:

So are the nastier effects like HAPE rare then on Mt Blanc? Am I thus vindicated in that if you are fit and used to hardship, then you could climb Mt Blanc in 2 days?

What do the French guides do then? Please tell us

In reply to Skol:

It's all gone quiet from the guides?

In reply to Skol:

Yes, come on Simon, what do we guides of the Cinquième République do to mess our clients around?

In reply to jon:
One of then refused to guide me ski touring, gave me loads of free advice and told me to bugger off by myself (roughly). And now look! I have had lots of fun and spent the money on new skis instead. Shocking..

In reply to jon:

No, please do! I might be a marked man.

But seriously, I have seen people very incapacitated on the Col du Midi and have had a bad time there myself having failed to make it up the Tacul after a night dossing at the Midi (despite having previously dossed at the grands Montets and been up the Petite Verte). This was despite using the same (I thought finely tuned) acclimatisation schedule several times previously. Getting back to the Midi was hell and having been put straight to the front of the queue for the telepherique, I had to lie down for about an hour in the carpark at the bottom before I could go anywhere. If I went straight to the Col du Midi with no previous acclimatisation I would certainly be seriously ill.

I have climbed in the Alps with two people as poor at altitude as me and a friend who is certainly much better than me had a completely wasted trip to the Cosmiques hut feeling crap. I also know someone who, having never climbed a mountain before, went stright up Mont Blanc from the valley with no acclimatisation and no ill effect.

In reply to Skol:


The odd rare person will manage it. The majority will grind to a halt and turn round at some altitude feeling completely f***** and with some mild symtoms of AMS. The odd determined one might ill advisedly keep going and get into more serious difficulty.

But, as I said earlier, its not Mont Blanc which really bothers me (you can just turn round), but committing to a night at the Cosmiques with no acclimatisation or experience of altitude.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I'm glad I was a lucky one then .


Fair enough. I do value your opinion based on your experience . Perhaps he was wrong .

In reply to butteredfrog:

Yes I would agree. Its quite an experience. All I'm saying is that by doing a quick acclimitisation program followed by MB as your main objective might leave you a bit disappointed if the weather goes pear shaped. Although to be fair its much more acheivable than making The Matterhorn your goal for example. I would never discourage anyone from attempting MB, infact quite the reverse I'd be more likely to encourage them and think that concerns over acclimitisation are much more important than any concerns someone might have over technical difficulty, which is very low or objective dangers, which are limited to certain parts of the route. Personally I think the descent below the hut when your tired and then crossing the couloir are where your at risk. But thats a digression from this topic and I'm rambling.

RN

In reply to Robert Durran:

Thats funny, that's exactly what happened to me in 2010. I've got a nice pic of me lying flat on my back about 200m below the top of the Tacul saying "Fred do me a favour and shoot me would you!". LOL. Not pleasant is it.

In reply to rossn:


I agree, especially if you can come up with a cunning plan to avoid the crowds. It is a fantastic mountain to stand on top of. However, a short schedule is bound to be prone to failure due to weather and altitude, and non technical acclimatisation in Chamonix is always going to be crowded and dull. Much better to go and climb a few great 4000m peaks in the Pennine alps and then do Mont Blanc at the end of the trip if time and weather allow.

In reply to Robert Durran:
To the folk stating "Its not the himalayas" - I found that I felt much better in the Himalayas than I've ever felt at altitude in the Alps.

Purely because I had trekked in from Lukla, gradually gaining height. I've felt feckin awful a few times after getting off the Midi cable car. (And have seen a Japanese tourist being treated with oxygen) People forget how quick and easy it is to gain height in the alps, and in turn become ill

In reply to rossn:

I was just trying to balance the tone of the thread for the OP really! The more time you have in the mountains the better, but if time is limited, Mt Blanc is possible via the Gouter. If you are using the Gouter hut, its a weather gamble anyway as you need to book a month in advance.
Apart from acclimatisation the biggest objective danger is the Grand Couloir (which was very benign last time I was there, not a falling stone in sight). In descent you could clip the cables below the hut to stop a slip.

Adam

In reply to drunken monkey:

The midi cable car is an exception though? Not sure I would want to set off from the Midi without maybe a trip up to montenvers or similar beforehand. A bad choice to start the acclimatisation process IMO.

My point was although Mt Blanc is high, if start to suffer from the altitude, you can just turn round and walk back down the hill. Its 4 or 5 hrs to get back down to the valley, not 4 or 5 days.

Its not the himlayas FFS!

In reply to butteredfrog:


Not really. Jungfraujoch, Metro Alpin Saas, Klein Matterhorn, Grands Montets, Helbronner. All whisk the unsuspecting straight to around 3600 - 3800m in minutes. I think it's more relevant what you actually do from the lift and how long you take. For instance most people can easily do the Breithorn from Klein Matterhorn and get back to Zermatt long before any ill effects set in. However, just spending an uncomfortable night in the Cosmiques is probably more of a risk. Even if it's just a headache and not too serious, it's not pleasant.

In reply to jon:


But the Midi is the only one you have to walk significantly back uphill to!

In reply to Robert Durran:
In reply to Robert Durran:


Ah yes, but that was sort of my point. Though walking back up to the Jungfraujoch having done the Jungfrau, is not without effort either.

In reply to jon:

I was thinking more in the context being based in Chamonix and acclimatising for Mt Blanc. There are loads of better(safer) ways to acclimatise than rocking up in Cham and jumping straight in a cable car up to 3800Mtrs.
The problems with the midi, i.e. the big slog back up to the cable car station if you got ill, as I think we all agreed on earlier, don't make it the best spot at the beginning of a trip.
Personally I have found that walking up out of the valley and getting lifts back down, lets me acclimatise a lot easier and quicker getting any lift uphill.

Adam

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes indeed, and I know its out on a limb geographically but I've been thinking about Piz Bernina (4058m I think) and the Biancograt for a future trip. It's just got that wow factor. Not technically difficult maybe AD+ but just the look of it. Its what you imagined the Alps to be like when you were a 10 year old kid.

RN

In reply to butteredfrog:

Yes agree 100%. I dont like the cables though, clip them with something that has a bit of a dynamic to it. I'm not suggesting carry a via ferrata kit but if you slide with a fairly static short lanyard you'll get a hell of a shock when your krab hits an anchor?? Perhaps someone else would have a more informed comment to make on that. Again slightly off on a ramble again. Thats what happens when your bored. Ha Ha!

RN

In reply to rossn:


I'd say you were rather over thinking this. The ground really isn't steep enough to worry about things like that. One thing for sure though, if you clip the traverse cable with a short lanyard, you'll be in for a shock!

In reply to rossn:


Yes, a brilliant route with a bit of everything at the grade.

In reply to jon:

Yes probably. I didnt clip onto anything up or down, just think out loud.

RN

In reply to Robert Durran:

Good, glad you said that. Maybe next year.

RN

In reply to Robert Durran:


If you were unacclimatised, would this walk kill you?

In reply to Skol:


The problem is moore likely to be being unable to walk.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Agree. If you don't have this amount of time though there is a 3 Cols circuit up on the Swiss border above Chamonix that makes an excellent acclimatisation training route - and tester.

In reply to Skol:

No but it is a killer!

In reply to WJV0912:

You may find this useful:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5784

In reply to Mark / Alps:

Aye I've read that mate but thanks! And thanks for your email too. Hopefully you got my response

In reply to Mark / Alps:


Even for someone as rubbish at altitude as me, that summit height progression (3000m, 3500m, 4000m, 4800m) seems odd. Even I can start higher than 3000m, while the step from 4200m to 4800m is very big. I would go with roughly 3300/3500m, 3800/4000m, 4200/4400m, 4800m. But, again, the important thing is to cautiously find out what works for the individual.

In reply to WJV0912:

Argentiere ref/Col du Chardonnet/Trient ref/ Col du Tour/Albert 1er ref