UKC

Firstly so everyone know what I mean by hybrid midlayers here are the type of thing I am talking about.

http://tinyurl.com/nl368js
http://tinyurl.com/onnnl5l
http://tinyurl.com/oqwjcgb
http://tinyurl.com/kd8g9ph

First question is why the Sherpa and Jottnar do not use Polartec Alpha insulation? seems to me the perfect use of the insulation to give the best breathability.

Secondly, it seems that all of them use power stretch, or something similar, for the arms, side and hood (if they have one) I wonder why they don't use something more like Polartec WindPro fleece to give more wind resistance so it is more usable as an outer layer. Seems to me a bit of worst of both worlds with the wind proof body but with the wind whistling through the arms, hood and sides.

All of this is pure speculation as I haven't actually used any of this type of product. But as a I am interested in purchasing one I thought I'd ask UKCs opinion!

Thanks Ali

In reply to alimckay:

Have you tried anything made with Alpha? I'm not totally convinced it breathes that much better than the two hybrid jackets I've used (including the Alfar - review on UKC next week I think). Some thoughts on trying the Marmot isotherm with Alpha insulation here: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.fi/2014/02/marmot-isotherm-hoodypolartec-...

In reply to alimckay:

I imagine that much of what is put in clothing is simply there to attract buyers rather than necessarily increase functionality. After all there is only so much you can add to a garment before it becomes increasingly too expensive to purchase and the returns in terms of warmth etc., simply don't stack up.

Decent jacket - one that fits reasonably close to your skin + a fleece and you'll be sorted.

In reply to TobyA:
I've just bought and used a Rab Strata hoody (made with Alpha) for a few days walking in Scotland last week.

I would usually use either a Buffalo shirt/hood, or a base/fleece/hard or soft shell combo, but used just this Rab top over over a base layer and sometimes under a non-membrane softshell - Montane Alpine stretch FWIW - if needed a bit more weatherproofing.

I run warm and often get really hot walking, and this combo I found perfect for temperature regulation and windproof-ness. I never got or felt hot or sweaty which I would in most other synthetic tops, and it's easy to dump heat quickly by just opening it up for a few seconds. It's not 100% windproof but I think that's great, and I just boosted it with the softshell when it got a bit cold and both together felt 100% windproof.

TBH it felt a better balance of warmth, windproofness, and breathability, than a fleece/windproof combination, and was much nicer to wear as well.

In reply to JayPee630:

Have you ever tried a non-alpha light synthetic insulated top - be it hybrid or not - for comparison? My comparison is http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4447 and the Jöttnar Alfar, and I'm not sure if I'm any less sweaty in the Alpha insulated Isotherm than in those, but then the hybrid designs are obviously very breathable where they are powerstretch, so that must help.

Brands seem to be lining alpha with mesh, which makes a lot of sense. You can't do that with down, and I think you can't do it with primaloft or similar - so alpha has the advantage there, but I guess the outer fabric must have a lot to do with how breathable or not you find the thing. I think Rab is using pertex too isn't it?

I've been using the Isotherm more in recent weeks since writing my review and have decided it does work well as a mid-layer for ice climbing and the like but still if I hike hard in it, just wearing that alone and if its not very cold, then I do get sweaty inside. I am a bit of sweaty mess doing aerobic activity though, so it might just be me!

In reply to TobyA:
Yeah, have had a few over the years but all of 100gsm weight so it's not really a fair comparison I guess at the 80gsm Alpha is roughly the same as a 40gsm Primaloft from what I've read. I couldn't walk without getting very hot in a 100gsm Primaloft unless it was bloody baltic!

The Rab one is Pertex Microlight outer and a weird mesh inner (with bit of Pertex around the hem and other bits) that's very thin, and you can see the holes in the Alpha through it if you hold it up to the light! It also has sections under the arms with no insulation as well which must help.

Yeah the Powerstretch ones will maybe be more breathable I reckon but think the ones with all Pertex will work better as mid/outer layers maybe, whereas I can't see those fleece/Alpha ones being that good for that unless it's only cool and with no wind...?

I think it is probably has the same use (and is maybe only as good as) as a thin hooded fleece and hooded windproof over the top, but I quite like the one layer thing, and it does make movement better as it slides over a base layer nicely, rather than a thin fleece over the same.

In reply to TobyA:

I have used the Rab Strata for a couple of days and for me it was a bit too warm, which is why I was looking at these with less insulation on the sleeves. I just feel with the power stretch the wind would cut straight through. Maybe it's designed as a dedicated midlayer rather than an outer, but then why the windproof body? or maybe your arms don't really feel the wind when you're working hard?(thinking out loud here)

In reply to alimckay:

I find I can get pretty warm in the hybrid ones too, even though with wind you'll feel it coming through the arms etc. These things are always a balance, but that why I said in my blog post that I suspect for me at least, a hooded fleece and a separate windproof is probably a more flexible arrangement. I'm still experimenting with the Isotherm - it is a nice jacket in many ways, but a bit like you found with the Strata, I think I can get too warm in it too easily. Being breathable is great, but just not getting too sweaty in the first place and wetting out your base layer etc is probably a better plan - at least for those of us not covered in body armour and webbing full of spare ammo clips, grenades and communication gear!

In reply to TobyA:
How does it compare to marmot dri-climb wind shirts? Used these quote a lot and really like them as there lite, warm, still warm when wet and very breathable.

Cheers Davey

In reply to Mountain Llama:
Personally I think the Strata and those kind of tops a bit similar as to usage.

I used to have a Rab Vapour (very similar to the Dri-Clime) rise years ago and it was perfect, I could wear it in nearly all conditions with just a base layer. It wore out and I bought a new one but they'd changed the design and it just didn't work for me so well. Tried a couple of variations on it as they changed it but none of them fitted or felt as well designed (simple) as the first ones.

And for me that's something worth bearing in mind - I think the fit and design of a garment are almost as important as the actual material (within reason!) used in it's manufacturer.

I hadn't had anything from Rab in years as every time I tried something on it felt too tight across the shoulder in my usual size, and the size above was just ill-fitting in other areas. (I'd say I'm a pretty averaged sized 75kg/5'10" bloke) or was just a design I didn't like.

I tried the Strata on though and both the fit was perfect on me and I liked the simple design, and for sure that helps the performance.

In reply to TobyA:

Yea I think you're right that my current system of hooded fleece and windproof is probably a better solution (also has the advantage of not having to buy anything!!). I was probably lured in by the new technology! I guess each brand is still almost experimenting with Alpha to find out the best way to use it. I still think an Alpha insulated body with minimally insulated, wind resistant arms would make an excellent wear all day jacket, but looks like it's only me at the moment!

In reply to Mountain Llama:

Agree with JayPee - the driclimes are really good, light and cheapish too. I suspect the Isotherm is a bit warmer though, long time since I've used my driclime!

In reply to alimckay:
My sleeveless Strata vest is my favourite garment for lengthy, high intensity activities, ie long, steep walk-ins, followed by stiff climbs. Warmth at the core where you want it, not at the periphery. Breathable and functional.

The Strata hoody, with its long sleeves, works perfectly for gentle or all day rambles around my local moors, keeping a beautiful balance of temperature across a wide operating range, but don't bury it under a shell on a mild day. It's also great for cragging and multipitch at moderate tempo in cold conditions. Breathable enough for the climbing, warm enough for the belay.

Hope to be going winter mountaineering tomorrow, it's the Strata vest I've laid out for the morning (plus microgrid fleece, brynje mesh base, and shell in the pack).

In reply to alimckay:

I've used a Patagonia Nano puff pull over, an Arc'teryx Atom Lt and the Rab Strata hoody. I have a rather quick metabolism and get very sweaty on walk ins.

Using Nano puff as an active layer was ok for low intensive stuff (climbing) if very cold, but a bit sweaty for high intensive activities (fast walking, post holing). I prefer it as a summer/spring static layer.

Atom Lt was similar but seemed a little more breathable, did not notice any issues with cold spots on side panels but have not used it as a stand alone in strong winds yet. Mostly gets used as a about town jacket as it's relatively new.

Rab strata has only been used once for a mornings walk in the Pentland hills, near Edinburgh. A steep up hill had me sweating and the wind driven drizzle up top was bad enough to have me wishing I had goggles and a balaclava! By the time I dropped back down into the valley, my soft shell trousers were wetting out but the Strata was still holding up. Breath-ability was great, better than expected. However, it is not a static insulation. A short break out of the wind was bearable but any longer would of wanted something else over the top. all in all, I think it's a great piece of kit.

Would happily recommend it as a cold weather mid layer or active stand alone.

In reply to alimckay:
Join the rest of the world and buy an Atom LT!

On a serious note tho, these are seriously becoming a cult jacket as they are so bloody good. I've layered with it, used it on its own and have never found a fault. The fit is beyond compare too. As mentioned it is also incredibly breathable, I still wear a Windstopper outer jacket and despite running hot I have never felt uncomfortable.

In reply to BnB:

Yes I'm beginning to think the vests are a lot more versatile. Current system for me is to have a merino baselayer with microfleece midlayer and a (soft)shell over the top depending on weather, then when stop to crampon/gear up put another fleece layer on for the climb. The Strata vest or even a vapourise/driclime/atom lt vest would work as the extra layer, then just leave it on for the rest of the day without the added bulk on the sleeves.

In reply to Grendel:

I do like the look of the Arcteryx Atom LT however I worry that it'll be to warm for my like the Rab Strata, although the breathable side would help that.

I think for me if I was to get one it would be a vest as an add on to my current system rather than replace it all like I first thought.

In reply to alimckay:

I've got a Patagonia puffball vest that must be at least a decade old, but its great for just the sort of stuff you're mentioning here. Great for cold weather autumn rock climbing for example.

In reply to TobyA:

The vest is the best!!

In reply to alimckay:

Have a look at your base layer as well. Merino is great for passive pursuits like skiing and snowboarding, but when you're working up a sweat, you need to shift the moisture away from your base layer or suffer cold stops and belays. Merino is warm (and odour resistant) but doesn't perform well in this regard at all. Invest in a Brynje mesh tee shirt. it'll be the best £30 you spend this winter. I can't believe how warm AND dry it keeps me. Everyone I know who's tried it sings the same praise.

In reply to BnB:

My base layer is actually a Helly Hansen Warm which has a layer of synthetic next to the skin with merino over the top so it wicks better than pure merino. But Brynje do look interesting, if a little odd. Then again if they are as good as you say it doesn't really matter how odd they are!!

In reply to alimckay:
I have just bought a Montane Alpha Guide jacket. Unfortunately I have neither taken it anywhere that exciting (other than some horizontal hail on Dartmoor) or worn anything else as technical for comparison.

When I first got it (small) I also felt it was a bit big (or rather I am a bit small - you don't seem to be able to get it below small), but since then I have tended to wear light fleeces below it, and it is still good at keeping out the wind from below (even without tightening the waist, although this may just be more to do with my waist than the jacket!). Again, when I first wore it to work (as a test) over just a short-sleeve jacket, I noticed a lot a air coming in through the sleeves (as you would expect) when cycling downhill, but since then I have always worn it over something with long sleeves and have always been happy with the wind proofing.

The main reason I bought it is so it can do many things... currently I have it as a climbing jacket; I will soon receive a nice Polarstretch baselayer to go underneath it. It can then be supplemented with non-windproof breathable fleece insulation, and finally if I end up somewhere really cold become a mid-layer under a belay jacket... at least that is the plan!

I also do like the bottom zip feature for zipping above your belay loop, even if on my jacket the zip is a little bit of a pain sometimes :P

It seems to be nicely made and although I can see me ripping up/holing the sleeves somewhat on rock, it is nice not to have to worry about this since the sleeves are just fabric, whereas if they were windproof/waterproof I would always be worrying about damaging them...