This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
This time last year I was adding bits and pieces to my UK summer kit to make it a summer Alpine kit. One year on and here are some thoughts:
Use cargo netting to allow helmet/crampon carry on smaller daysack.
Waterproofs/gaiters - really neccessary for just over 4000m?
Chamonix binman gloves rather than layered system.
Square rather than mummy-shaped silk liner.
No mapcase.
Overall I think it shows just how good you can get things by searching old posts on UKclimbing.
Use cargo netting to allow helmet/crampon carry on smaller daysack.
Waterproofs/gaiters - really neccessary for just over 4000m?
Chamonix binman gloves rather than layered system.
Square rather than mummy-shaped silk liner.
No mapcase.
Overall I think it shows just how good you can get things by searching old posts on UKclimbing.
In reply to mysterion:
Did you go to the Alpes yourself, how did everything you took work?
Overall I think it shows just how good you can get things by going to the Alpes and seeing how things work.
ps.
> This time last year I was adding bits and pieces to my UK summer kit to make it a summer Alpine kit. One year on and here are some thoughts:
Did you go to the Alpes yourself, how did everything you took work?
> Overall I think it shows just how good you can get things by searching old posts on UKclimbing.
Overall I think it shows just how good you can get things by going to the Alpes and seeing how things work.
ps.
> Use cargo netting to allow helmet/crampon carry on smaller daysack.
Sensible sized pack that you can stuff everything in without a fight when you can no longer feel your hands. No extraneous bits to snag whn you are climbing.> Waterproofs/gaiters - really neccessary for just over 4000m?
Is it going to be wet?> Chamonix binman gloves rather than layered system.
Whatever works for you on the hill. If you are going to carry spares of anything then make it gloves.> Square rather than mummy-shaped silk liner.
Porquoi???> No mapcase.
No. You are British. You need a case with a lanyard around your neck. Make sure it doesn't get tangled in your Ronhills.In reply to interdit:
Yep, this is a rethink after a first trip to the Alps.
The smaller daysack has a ziparound opening (easier access) and a sloping bottom (less grounding on downclimbs).
On waterproofs I am thinking will I really be out in bad weather.
The square liner is for freer sleep.
Also, I forgot - use waterbottle not bladder (got punctured on sharp rock), insulated with the shredded remains of my Buffalo mitts as spare gloves.
Yep, this is a rethink after a first trip to the Alps.
The smaller daysack has a ziparound opening (easier access) and a sloping bottom (less grounding on downclimbs).
On waterproofs I am thinking will I really be out in bad weather.
The square liner is for freer sleep.
Also, I forgot - use waterbottle not bladder (got punctured on sharp rock), insulated with the shredded remains of my Buffalo mitts as spare gloves.
Post edited at 23:40
In reply to mysterion:
It's better to pack wisely in a larger pack with a good compression system IME.
.
> The smaller daysack has a ziparound opening (easier access) and a sloping bottom (less grounding on downclimbs).
It's better to pack wisely in a larger pack with a good compression system IME.
.
In reply to mysterion:
how on earth did you waterbladder get punctured by a rock on the inside of your rucksack?
just wondering!
how on earth did you waterbladder get punctured by a rock on the inside of your rucksack?
just wondering!
In reply to mysterion:
Of all of this, the most stupid suggestion is that "will I really be out in bad weather?"
I'm not sure whether you have ever noticed this but there is this phenomonen called a cloud. When a cloud gets really really full which can happen over the course of an hour or two, the cloud bursts and all the inchy wincy water droplets fall back out of the sky. Sometimes they fall as frozen stuff, which is usual called snow or hail. When its warm it will be water and is called rain. It can rain, snow or hail at any height depending on how warm it is. Otherwise called what temperature it is. When the temperature is cold, and it snows, the snow lands on the ground or sometimes on you, and as you are warm and the snow is cold, it melts. This makes the snow into water, which makes you wet. When it's raining, this also makes you wet. Wetness leads to you getting cold - this magic spell is cast on you called convective cooling. This can lead to you being very cold and shaking like a leaf. When you shake enough like a leaf you get really really tired and sit down in the snow and die like a numpty.
Sorry, I know the extreme sarcasm needle just went through the roof, but summer storms in the alps are serious. Very very serious. They can kill you quickly and can arrive at any time and with very little notice, leaving you vastly over extended and in a dire situation. Having been through quite a few alpine storms, including getting hit by lightening when the day had started off with 50 mile visibility, I would suggest you are lining yourself up for a darwin award by not taking at the very least a waterproof jacket. Trousers I can understand, gaiters are useful if you are really confident and will stop snow going down your boots and soaking your feet. You are not in a situation that if you walk in a straight line for an hour or two you'll get to the road like you can pretty much anywhere in England or Wales.
Look at super lightweight trousers - they're compact and need not take up much room in your pack as that's where they will be until you need them. Softshell can work too if you get the right stuff. Gaiters, if you don't want gaiters then either look at shorty gaiters made of softshell fabric just to keep the snow out, or get trousers with inbuilt snow gaiters. Just don't go out with too little stuff - it can kill you. There is a fine line between light is right and too light is dead. Build your experience by taking too much stuff and slowly whittling it down - it won't take that long to learn.
Of all of this, the most stupid suggestion is that "will I really be out in bad weather?"
I'm not sure whether you have ever noticed this but there is this phenomonen called a cloud. When a cloud gets really really full which can happen over the course of an hour or two, the cloud bursts and all the inchy wincy water droplets fall back out of the sky. Sometimes they fall as frozen stuff, which is usual called snow or hail. When its warm it will be water and is called rain. It can rain, snow or hail at any height depending on how warm it is. Otherwise called what temperature it is. When the temperature is cold, and it snows, the snow lands on the ground or sometimes on you, and as you are warm and the snow is cold, it melts. This makes the snow into water, which makes you wet. When it's raining, this also makes you wet. Wetness leads to you getting cold - this magic spell is cast on you called convective cooling. This can lead to you being very cold and shaking like a leaf. When you shake enough like a leaf you get really really tired and sit down in the snow and die like a numpty.
Sorry, I know the extreme sarcasm needle just went through the roof, but summer storms in the alps are serious. Very very serious. They can kill you quickly and can arrive at any time and with very little notice, leaving you vastly over extended and in a dire situation. Having been through quite a few alpine storms, including getting hit by lightening when the day had started off with 50 mile visibility, I would suggest you are lining yourself up for a darwin award by not taking at the very least a waterproof jacket. Trousers I can understand, gaiters are useful if you are really confident and will stop snow going down your boots and soaking your feet. You are not in a situation that if you walk in a straight line for an hour or two you'll get to the road like you can pretty much anywhere in England or Wales.
Look at super lightweight trousers - they're compact and need not take up much room in your pack as that's where they will be until you need them. Softshell can work too if you get the right stuff. Gaiters, if you don't want gaiters then either look at shorty gaiters made of softshell fabric just to keep the snow out, or get trousers with inbuilt snow gaiters. Just don't go out with too little stuff - it can kill you. There is a fine line between light is right and too light is dead. Build your experience by taking too much stuff and slowly whittling it down - it won't take that long to learn.
In reply to mike kann:
Ok Mike so help me out here with info on the height profile of Alpine storms and stuff like that. Do they persist all the way back to the hut if you turn around? Not going to be doing any high level traverses or anything like that.
Ok Mike so help me out here with info on the height profile of Alpine storms and stuff like that. Do they persist all the way back to the hut if you turn around? Not going to be doing any high level traverses or anything like that.
In reply to Juicefree:
Yep, another one I forgot - bring a straw. Those glacial streams are a long way away!
Yep, another one I forgot - bring a straw. Those glacial streams are a long way away!
In reply to timjones:
I found I needed to reorder my stuff from top to bottom twice a day in my tube pack, mountain stuff v hut stuff.
> It's better to pack wisely in a larger pack with a good compression system IME.
I found I needed to reorder my stuff from top to bottom twice a day in my tube pack, mountain stuff v hut stuff.
Post edited at 12:20
In reply to mysterion:
Couple more things, a red light and a mesh/clear stuffsack (rather than a shopping bag) for hut things is less antisocial when rummaging around early morning in the dark.
Couple more things, a red light and a mesh/clear stuffsack (rather than a shopping bag) for hut things is less antisocial when rummaging around early morning in the dark.
In reply to Juicefree:
That's a good party trick if a little crude!
> Stick a straw in your helmet and you suck melt-water off the granite.
That's a good party trick if a little crude!
In reply to mysterion:
With a broken ankle you can turn around and watch the hut below you dissapear into the swirling snowstorm and wish you had been better equipped.
> Ok Mike so help me out here with info on the height profile of Alpine storms and stuff like that. Do they persist all the way back to the hut if you turn around? Not going to be doing any high level traverses or anything like that.
With a broken ankle you can turn around and watch the hut below you dissapear into the swirling snowstorm and wish you had been better equipped.
In reply to jimtitt:
I was wondering to what extent waterproofs and survival bag duplicated each other. I would always take one of those big orange survival bags, even in UK summer.
I was wondering to what extent waterproofs and survival bag duplicated each other. I would always take one of those big orange survival bags, even in UK summer.
In reply to mysterion:
Pain in the butt walking and climbing in a survival bag. Unpleasant sleeping in waterproofs and in a survival bag/blanket as well but since they weigh nothing why not?
Pain in the butt walking and climbing in a survival bag. Unpleasant sleeping in waterproofs and in a survival bag/blanket as well but since they weigh nothing why not?
In reply to mysterion:
Wait. You're willing to carry a 500 gramme poly bag in which to sit still and freeze, but not a 500 gramme waterproof jacket in which you might be able to get yourself out of trouble? (And a 50g space blanket for when the shit hits the fan). You have odd priorities.
> I was wondering to what extent waterproofs and survival bag duplicated each other. I would always take one of those big orange survival bags, even in UK summer.
Wait. You're willing to carry a 500 gramme poly bag in which to sit still and freeze, but not a 500 gramme waterproof jacket in which you might be able to get yourself out of trouble? (And a 50g space blanket for when the shit hits the fan). You have odd priorities.
In reply to AlanLittle:
So it looks like forget the waterproof overtrousers, gaiters and survival bag but take the waterproof jacket? This is exactly the debate I was hoping for, thanks all.
So it looks like forget the waterproof overtrousers, gaiters and survival bag but take the waterproof jacket? This is exactly the debate I was hoping for, thanks all.
In reply to mysterion:
Hmm not sure about that interpretation. You lose a huge amount of heat from your legs if not insulated correctly (this includes keeping them dry and out of the wind!).
My personal opinion would be that a set of light weight waterproofs (upper and lower body) are a good idea, high quality soft shell trousers would probably be OK, but not as good. Generally I have a pair of Salopettes that I wear all day for alpine mixed or snow/ice routes. Gaiters I still wear (though smaller ankle gaiters) to stop snow getting into the tops of my boots, particularly on descent later in the morning.
For rock routes, it'll depend on what and where whether I take waterproof trousers, but I'll still take a waterproof jacket.
Your right to look at your kit and see where you can save weight, but until you have a system worked out err on the heavy side and gradually shed what you don't need. Don't need doesn't mean don't use often though!
Also think about it from a team perspective. What kit are you doubling up on that you don't need to? Are you both carrying survival bags? Would a single 2 man group shelter be better (and warmer)? Both carrying big first aid kits? Bothy carrying GPS etc? Anyway, I'm sure you get the gist. Going through this exercise it was surprising how much kit we were duplicating as "just in case" gear....
You'll probably save more weight by shaving bits of gear you don't need off your rack than by ditching your waterproofs too.
Hmm not sure about that interpretation. You lose a huge amount of heat from your legs if not insulated correctly (this includes keeping them dry and out of the wind!).
My personal opinion would be that a set of light weight waterproofs (upper and lower body) are a good idea, high quality soft shell trousers would probably be OK, but not as good. Generally I have a pair of Salopettes that I wear all day for alpine mixed or snow/ice routes. Gaiters I still wear (though smaller ankle gaiters) to stop snow getting into the tops of my boots, particularly on descent later in the morning.
For rock routes, it'll depend on what and where whether I take waterproof trousers, but I'll still take a waterproof jacket.
Your right to look at your kit and see where you can save weight, but until you have a system worked out err on the heavy side and gradually shed what you don't need. Don't need doesn't mean don't use often though!
Also think about it from a team perspective. What kit are you doubling up on that you don't need to? Are you both carrying survival bags? Would a single 2 man group shelter be better (and warmer)? Both carrying big first aid kits? Bothy carrying GPS etc? Anyway, I'm sure you get the gist. Going through this exercise it was surprising how much kit we were duplicating as "just in case" gear....
You'll probably save more weight by shaving bits of gear you don't need off your rack than by ditching your waterproofs too.
In reply to mysterion:
One thing I found useful, was that it is not always necessary to take an axe, saving a lot of weight.
I first figured this out on the Moine, - the walk up the Mer de Glace does not need an axe in summer, and the tiny Moine glacier can be stomped up without one.
I later applied this successfully to ascents of Peigne, Grepon, M and Blaitiere.
If you are in a pair, then one axe between you may be prudent.
However I did come a cropper on the Pouce, taking neither axe or crampons. The descent from the Index col was an epic in itself!
One thing I found useful, was that it is not always necessary to take an axe, saving a lot of weight.
I first figured this out on the Moine, - the walk up the Mer de Glace does not need an axe in summer, and the tiny Moine glacier can be stomped up without one.
I later applied this successfully to ascents of Peigne, Grepon, M and Blaitiere.
If you are in a pair, then one axe between you may be prudent.
However I did come a cropper on the Pouce, taking neither axe or crampons. The descent from the Index col was an epic in itself!
Post edited at 15:46
In reply to Fredt:
Yep, always good to think about these things. Well I have dropped the survival bag and gaiters and decided I will not take a pole and a flask for the marshtea as intended. With the bike cargo net outside for helmet, crampons and minimal rack and axe in sidestraps it all fits into a 22 litre pack and comes to a little over 5kg (no water, no rope). Put the net, helmet, crampons, axe and rack inside with the dangerous hut stuff like toothpaste for flying and treat the overflow as carry on. Sorted!
Yep, always good to think about these things. Well I have dropped the survival bag and gaiters and decided I will not take a pole and a flask for the marshtea as intended. With the bike cargo net outside for helmet, crampons and minimal rack and axe in sidestraps it all fits into a 22 litre pack and comes to a little over 5kg (no water, no rope). Put the net, helmet, crampons, axe and rack inside with the dangerous hut stuff like toothpaste for flying and treat the overflow as carry on. Sorted!
Post edited at 16:11
In reply to mysterion:
I would actually go with a pair of light cheap overtrousers at the bottom of the sack as well if I were at all unsure of the weather - but I often don't because I mainly do rock routes where the chance of being caught above 4,000 in a blizzard is nil.
On the subject of poly bag versus space blanket: I did a self-rescue and first aid course last year where the instructor was a member of an alpine rescue team. Part of it was a group show & tell to critique the contents of our first aid and emergency kits. One lady had no space blanket because, she said, "I have a bivvy bag and a belay jacket". Great, said Mr. Instructor: now try to get an unconscious casualty into a bivvy bag on a narrow ledge, and next time you'll pack a 50g space blanket. Was an eye-opener for me.
I would actually go with a pair of light cheap overtrousers at the bottom of the sack as well if I were at all unsure of the weather - but I often don't because I mainly do rock routes where the chance of being caught above 4,000 in a blizzard is nil.
On the subject of poly bag versus space blanket: I did a self-rescue and first aid course last year where the instructor was a member of an alpine rescue team. Part of it was a group show & tell to critique the contents of our first aid and emergency kits. One lady had no space blanket because, she said, "I have a bivvy bag and a belay jacket". Great, said Mr. Instructor: now try to get an unconscious casualty into a bivvy bag on a narrow ledge, and next time you'll pack a 50g space blanket. Was an eye-opener for me.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Will look into the spaceblanket. Also, will look into one of those vacuum stuffsacks to compress the waterproofs right down.
Will look into the spaceblanket. Also, will look into one of those vacuum stuffsacks to compress the waterproofs right down.
In reply to mysterion:
You should be taking things away to make it Alpine, not adding to it!
> This time last year I was adding bits and pieces to my UK summer kit to make it a summer Alpine kit.
You should be taking things away to make it Alpine, not adding to it!
In reply to mysterion:
As Jim says - its simply not just a case of turning around and going back to the hut. Yeah that's your first and best solution to the problem, but it's not always an available one. I've been at 3000m in a major snowstorm in late July, hail storms at 2500m in August, rain at 3000m and sometimes in the same day. If you are wanting to build experience, then start by ditching other things until you understand the risk profile which you are willing to accept and understand. A survival bag is no substitute for waterproofs. Having sat at the top of Piz Badile in a thunderstorm, having been struck, and wondering if my hours were counted because I'd only worn softshell trousers and nightfall was approaching fast and I was covered in snow, it's only when it goes really really wrong that you start to appreciate the right kit. Ditch your survival bag - it weighs the same as a pair of trousers, and you can still move in them, which means you are closer to the hut you were talking about...
As Jim says - its simply not just a case of turning around and going back to the hut. Yeah that's your first and best solution to the problem, but it's not always an available one. I've been at 3000m in a major snowstorm in late July, hail storms at 2500m in August, rain at 3000m and sometimes in the same day. If you are wanting to build experience, then start by ditching other things until you understand the risk profile which you are willing to accept and understand. A survival bag is no substitute for waterproofs. Having sat at the top of Piz Badile in a thunderstorm, having been struck, and wondering if my hours were counted because I'd only worn softshell trousers and nightfall was approaching fast and I was covered in snow, it's only when it goes really really wrong that you start to appreciate the right kit. Ditch your survival bag - it weighs the same as a pair of trousers, and you can still move in them, which means you are closer to the hut you were talking about...
In reply to mike kann:
Definitely- being caught in an electric storm on an AD ridge is no fun. Light waterproofs don't weigh much. Plus a bothy bag sometimes!
http://jdscomponents.co.uk/bothy%20offer.asp
Definitely- being caught in an electric storm on an AD ridge is no fun. Light waterproofs don't weigh much. Plus a bothy bag sometimes!
http://jdscomponents.co.uk/bothy%20offer.asp
In reply to mysterion:
Re: the space blanket. If you have a helmet that has an internal cradle such as the Petzl Ecrins then you can put the space blanket in the gap between the cradle and shell keeping it in place with a bit of sellotape or similar. This way, you always have it with you and it doesn't take up space in your sack, OK it does add a little bit of weight to the helmet but it's hardly noticeable.
What you haven't said is what sort of routes you are aiming for, it makes a big difference to what you pack for the hill. I'd pack somewhat different kit for a route on the Freney or Brouillard faces than a rock route near the Envers hut or climbing in the Dolomites for example.
Take bivouacing - what you take depends on your route and itinerary. If you are on a day route then you only need some form of emergency shelter as you are more than likely to survive a night without that 4 season sleeping bag. If you are returning to the foot of the route then you can take more on the walk-in, be comfortable on the bivvy, leave the kit and return to it. For a bivvy on-route then you obviously need to take the kit with you so it's worth trimming things down.
Alpine kit selection is a constant on-going process: you need to assess what you found essential; what you found useful and what you didn't need after each route/season.
Re: the space blanket. If you have a helmet that has an internal cradle such as the Petzl Ecrins then you can put the space blanket in the gap between the cradle and shell keeping it in place with a bit of sellotape or similar. This way, you always have it with you and it doesn't take up space in your sack, OK it does add a little bit of weight to the helmet but it's hardly noticeable.
What you haven't said is what sort of routes you are aiming for, it makes a big difference to what you pack for the hill. I'd pack somewhat different kit for a route on the Freney or Brouillard faces than a rock route near the Envers hut or climbing in the Dolomites for example.
Take bivouacing - what you take depends on your route and itinerary. If you are on a day route then you only need some form of emergency shelter as you are more than likely to survive a night without that 4 season sleeping bag. If you are returning to the foot of the route then you can take more on the walk-in, be comfortable on the bivvy, leave the kit and return to it. For a bivvy on-route then you obviously need to take the kit with you so it's worth trimming things down.
Alpine kit selection is a constant on-going process: you need to assess what you found essential; what you found useful and what you didn't need after each route/season.
In reply to mysterion:
Please don't be one of those people who keeps all of their stuff in the dorm, use the boxes in the porch/ gearing up area. The only things I would take to bed are a liner, earplugs and a bottle of water + the clothes you are wearing in the hut.
> (In reply to mysterion)
>
> Couple more things, a red light and a mesh/clear stuffsack (rather than a shopping bag) for hut things is less antisocial when rummaging around early morning in the dark.
>
> Couple more things, a red light and a mesh/clear stuffsack (rather than a shopping bag) for hut things is less antisocial when rummaging around early morning in the dark.
Please don't be one of those people who keeps all of their stuff in the dorm, use the boxes in the porch/ gearing up area. The only things I would take to bed are a liner, earplugs and a bottle of water + the clothes you are wearing in the hut.
In reply to mysterion:
>Wear a buffalo
>perfect temperature all the time
>water not an issue
>can't fall
>???
>profit
>Wear a buffalo
>perfect temperature all the time
>water not an issue
>can't fall
>???
>profit
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Alpine Conditions
This Alpine Conditions page gives a summary of what is being climbed at the moment, what is 'in' nick and what the prospects are...
25 Apr
Loading Notifications...