UKC

Hi
Relatively new to this belaying , but want to buy my first assisted locking belay device . I am wanting something that is a bit future proof ( even if i dont use straight away ) and easy enough for my daughter to belay with .
Stuck between these two , and would love opinions .
Grigri 2 seems very popular but not as versatile as Alpine up

Thanks

Dave

In reply to Davon:

They have different characteristics and uses, they aren´t realistically interchangeable. Sport climbing get the GriGri, other stuff then the Up (if you like it). There is no belay device which does it all that well and most people have different ones for different purposes.
(While the standard itself is pretty worthless its worth noting the Alpine Up does not pass the UIAA requirements for a locking assist device.)

In reply to Davon:

I wouldn't put the alpine up in the 'easy' category of belay devices. It's pretty complicated and can be set up and misused in a variety of ways. Are you both familiar with a standard belay device?

In reply to Davon:

I like my Mammut Smart. It's lighter, less bulky and cheaper than a GriGri and I believe more intuitive to use because it's more like standard belay device. GriGris are very effective in the right hands but seem to be more liable to mis-use than any other device I can think of.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Hi Yes i am and my daughter is but only quite new to it .
My thinking is i am safer if she is belaying me with one of these surely ??

In reply to Davon:

Mega jul?

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

???? Confused

In reply to Davon:

Get the grigri.

In reply to Davon:


http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/edelrid-mega-jul-p-1925.html

In reply to Davon:
I would get get her confident with a standard tube device before putting an autolocker in anyone's hands. It's better for their belaying in the long run. Trust your daughter first (get a mate to supervise) then ask this question later.

I.E get a belay because it's the best (for both of you).

In reply to FreshSlate:


Sound advice I'd agree with. Always best to learn to belay properly first. Like learning to drive a manual before moving to an automatic - not many learn to drive auto (with auto test) and try manual later for good reason.

In reply to Ffion Blethyn:

Thank you that looks so good . So many choices

In reply to Davon:

I've heard bad things about the Jul. Regarding the Alpine up I have no experience. I use a Grigri now very happily, if I had to replace it I would get a smart. For trad I have an ATC guide. I would recommend that combination of devices. Right one for the right job.

In reply to Davon:

You have to trust your belayer, and using an assisted braking device is not the way you should be gaining confidence in them. As said above; supervised training, a tube device with teeth, and a thicker rope (10.2-10.5mm) is a better way to gain trust. If you're leading and a lot heavier than your belayer these things will definitely help her feel more secure when holding a fall. It takes time to build confidence in any belayers skills, I don't think a different belay device can be a realistic shortcut.

Hi,

I agree with those who said a tube and a supervisor are the best "belay set" to start with.

That's how I started anyway. In fact, back when I started, the figure-of-eight was still the most widely used belay/rappel device and the original GriGri was just about to start to revolutionise the climbing world. I personally still rate the original GriGri higher than the new GriGri2 which works "uncompromisingly" well only with super skinny ropes. Yet, that's my belay device of choice when I'm belaying top rope, with any rope.

The Alpine Up is in a totally different category, I tested it for months and wrote a review here: http://gocraggingblog.blogspot.it/2014/03/gear-review-climbing-technology-a... Quoting myself:"if you’re looking for a single rope belay device, the Alpine Up is not it". And this is coming from someone who loves the Alpine Up...

The GriGri2 might go head-to-head with the Click Up or Cinch or Eddy or Smart, etc. that is, all those assisted braking devices specifically designed for sport climbing with a single dynamic rope. In fact, I always considered rating these devices as "safer" because they're "assisted braking" or, even worse, considering any of them "auto-locking" (they aren't) is a common and dangerous misconception.

As purplemonkeyelephant put it, "you have to trust your belayer"

Ciao!

Nic

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

No!
They are hard to use. They give a vicious arrest, mostly, or occasionally no arrest. They are hard to feed for leading. Being lowered is like falling down stairs. The belayer will need a strong thumb. A small steel crab can be used as a lever to help the thumb (See manf instructions!) The thin stainless MJ damages the alloy belay biner very quickly. In the USA they have had numerous cases of the thumb loop breaking, hence the small steel crab. At one point Edelrid were thinking of producing and recommending a steel belay crab.

In reply to Davon:


It may look good but in my not so humble opinion it's f*cking awful. As others have said, they score your belay crab badly - just where you really really don't need a scored carabiner, they get super hot when abseiling because they are made of stainless and are tiny - I know someone who got badly burnt using one, they lock up like a father locks up his teenage daughter meaning you have to learn to use them, they have been known to fail on the thumbloop... need I go on? Just dire. Alpine up is very different to the grigri and the most tuberesque in terms of handling but does need to be learned - it's a good tool though. If you want to use doubles ten you will need to use that rather than the grigri. Personally I'm not a fan of the grigri as I find them awkward to belay with, but then that's personal preferance...

In reply to Davon:

I use a click-up which I think is more comparable to the gri-gri. I initially used it all the time but started to get annoyed with it locking while paying rope out too quickly (I know people who also have this issue with the gri-gri). I now only use it for belaying someone working a route on top-rope, as you can keep it permanently locked (you can take in rope but won't pay out), I would recommend being comfortable with using a standard device first though.

In reply to Nicola Ciancaglini:
"The GriGri2 might go head-to-head with the Click Up or Cinch or Eddy or Smart, etc. that is, all those assisted braking devices specifically designed for sport climbing with a single dynamic rope. In fact, I always considered rating these devices as "safer" because they're "assisted braking" or, even worse, considering any of them "auto-locking" (they aren't) is a common and dangerous misconception."

The Gri-Gri (and 2) are also fiddly to lower with and counterintuitive (if you pull harder, it releases the rope, when the instinct is to grip). And they're fiddly to lead belay with.

They have their role - sport climbing, and being used for instructing under supervision "bell ringing" style. I wouldn't let a novice near one unless they were being tailed. And if they are being tailed, as a novice should be, why not keep it simple and use an ATC?

Neil

In reply to AlexBush:


You are spot on. That's exactly where problems begin with MOST assisted braking devices.

People will try anything to prevent unwanted locking from happening. With the GriGri (v.1 and v.2) and the Cinch (I can only speak for these two devices) there are popular improper ways to by-pass the locking mechanism and effectively belay unsafely.

With the Cinch you can pay out slack in two different ways (see manufacturer's videos) and as far as paying out slack, the Cinch is possibly the best device in this category. There is no need to change belay method while belaying; very easy. And yet, I've seen way too many people holding the Cinch with one hand perfectly in-line with the climber, braking end of the rope running free through the device etc.

With the GriGri... one has only got to appreciate the effort Petzl is making trying to persuade people to use it correctly. The latest (funny) video (feat. Nina Caprez) is the most effective imho. Brilliant device... if only people knew how to use it. I've seen more than one climber hitting the deck not even climbing... being lowered off! Let's not forget that unless we witness such accidents in person we will only ever know about them if they're fatal

The Click Up... I still have to figure out how to grossly misuse it without realising it or how to totally by-pass the locking mechanism, given that, differently from the others, not keeping a hand on the braking end of the rope "feels" unsafe even when correctly used. If you don't feed the rope into the device it will easily lock. True. More so with stiffer ropes. "Unexpected locking" and "rope twisting", are the two major arguments I hear against the Click Up. Both have a solution, however impractical or annoying, I don't think they're show stoppers.

Finally, I still think a good trustworthy belayer (possibly wearing belay glasses) and a tube are hard to beat

Nic

It's just beyond me how people who have made it to adulthood fail to acquire the very basic motor skills to use a Grigri. Just astounding.

In reply to Davon:
Had a novice belay me for a long time recently. I gave them a grigri2 and made sure they weren't going to drop me while lowering. Weighing up someone paying attention and being able to react after standing around for hours vs device complexity, I felt more comfortable with the grigri.

The lowering a climber, panicking and pulling the release lever harder is a definite potential problem. As is people using their brake hand to not hold the rope but instead depress the cam. I also read of one account where a user clipped their belay biner through their tie in points instead of the belay loop and accidentally depressed the cam with their body leading to a ground fall.

It is really annoying to feed my furry 10.5mm rope through. My friend highly rates it with his 10mm.

The grigri is pretty versatile device for belaying ,ascending, descending and (not recommended usage but still popular for) solo roped climbing.

But, I'd probably suggest something more simple and cheaper - an ATC guide has served me well through my learning progression and continues to (all the way from learning to belay a leader to bringing up two seconds).

In reply to jon:

It's beyond me how anyone who has made it to adulthood would choose to use a safety device that is fiddly and counterintuitive where there exist plenty of other such devices that aren't.

I don't mind people belaying me with a Grigri, but not anyone who I don't know is used to it, particularly lowering.

Neil

In reply to needvert:
"Had a novice belay me for a long time recently."

I don't want a novice belaying me without someone who isn't a novice tailing them, whatever device they're using. If there are only two of us, we'll go bouldering until I can find a third person to help out, or a second novice so I can just instruct and stay on the ground.

I am not anti-Grigri as such, though I'm not a massive fan I do own one and I see they have a role in e.g. sport climbing with repeated falls. I just think they are about the worst thing you could possibly give a novice, and the brake assist provides a dangerous false sense of security, while the fiddly lowering and counterintuitive lever is a risk in itself.

Neil

In reply to jon:
Or, as another analogy, I drive a modern car. I recognise the fun inherent in driving a classic car and the fact that the skills needed to drive one safely tend to be more involved, and I wouldn't rule out having one in future. But for a day to day journey I'll take a modern car with modern controls and safety features, personally.

Just because I *can* use a Grigri doesn't mean I don't think they are not nice to use and I would vastly prefer to use something else.

Neil

In reply to Nicola Ciancaglini:
"With the GriGri... one has only got to appreciate the effort Petzl is making trying to persuade people to use it correctly. The latest (funny) video (feat. Nina Caprez) is the most effective imho. Brilliant device... if only people knew how to use it. I've seen more than one climber hitting the deck not even climbing... being lowered off! Let's not forget that unless we witness such accidents in person we will only ever know about them if they're fatal "

I don't even like the Petzl "proper" way to do it, as it has you allowing rope to feed through your hand to pay out, which to me increases the chance of a fumble or losing control at the exact point you're paying out if the climber falls then, particularly if you then grab the device to try to lock it (as you intuitively would[1] even though it's totally the wrong thing to do). I have an alternative way in which you slide your brake hand down with the device locked (as you would[2] with an ATC), bring your hand up to the device and knock the cam to release that bit of slack while still tightly gripping the rope, then repeat. But that is quite hard to do quickly.

[1] If anyone thinks you wouldn't, why do a number of descenders only release the rope with a "medium" grip, while locking solid when grabbed tightly *or* fully released?

[2] Unless you belay palm-up (US style), but that really puts the nerves up me as it is non-fail-safe and unnecessarily so.

Neil

In reply to Davon:

Grigris are great for belaying on a single rope.

Quick to take in or pay out, easy and smooth to lower people, great when you're belaying someone working a route.

I wouldn't want a novice belaying me with one, or an ATC, or an Italian Hitch or a....

In reply to jezb1:
"Quick to...pay out, easy and smooth to lower people"

They have their strengths, but compared with just about every other device I'm amazed anyone thinks the above.

"I wouldn't want a novice belaying me with one, or an ATC, or an Italian Hitch or a...."

Exactly. Whatever they're using, a novice needs someone holding onto the tail until such time as they're not a novice. So you might as well keep it simple and start with an ATC.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Paying out with a grigri is super quick though? And lowering by someone practised in using one perfectly smooth?



I agree. When I'm teaching I start with an ATC type and evolve onto a grigri if appropriate or necessary.

In reply to Davon:



I got a grigri for the same reason, a big weight differential between my Teenage Daughter and Myself. Perfectly happy with it on Trad even. I would rather in the event of a Sudden Violent pull, rockfall, etc, theres a Better Chance of her letting go that a fall will get Arrested.

Thats why it was originally Invented i believe.

In reply to jezb1:

Paying out with a Grigri is a pain in the backside and takes a lot of practice. So is lowering. By someone practiced in both, it's easy and quick. But then if you're practiced in driving a Ford Model T I'm sure you could drive it beautifully smoothly, but I bet I, never having driven one, couldn't.

This is why I'm not super-opposed to Grigris in themselves but I think novices should stay away. They are a device for experienced people taking part in indoor lead and outdoor sport climbing, and have a useful side-use for "bell-ringing" where the rope is controlled by the instructor. I don't see any other role for them at all.

Neil

In reply to broken spectre:

Rockfall I'll give you. But other than that, if I think there is an even vaguely appreciable chance that anyone belaying me, particularly on lead, is going to let go, or get smashed into the rock, they aren't going to be belaying me.

(I'm very heavy so this choice is not foreign to me at all)

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


But they aren't, Neil. If they were as you say then Petzl would either have gone out of business years ago or simply abandoned the design - they aren't stupid.

In reply to jon:
I never said they were. They sell plenty of them to people who like them, as once you are trained in their use they are fine (though I'm still not a massive fan, I accept that others are). Climbers are quite conservative (small C) and will want to carry on using what they are used to.

However, they are of no use for teaching novices, IMO, because they do take some getting used to, and anyone who thinks "I'll give this to a novice because it's got brake assist" is missing the point as it zooms over their head at 35,000ft, namely that novices should not be belaying without someone supervising until they are not novices.

Edit: Brake assist has benefits, e.g. if someone gets distracted, cold, in the event of an accident, rockfall, a very big lead fall/high fall factor or whatever. But for a novice it is not relevant, because there should be a human "brake assist" hanging onto the end of the rope.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Well if you weren't referring to a Grigri in the quote in my post, what exactly were you referring to?

And if you look back at my post at 15:00 which you replied to, you'll see that it was not aimed at you but an open post to those of you who have difficulty operating Grigris. You do seem to have taken up the cause with gusto!

In reply to jon:
You're making quite a jump from "I don't personally like Grigris, while I do own one, and I certainly wouldn't use one for instructing a novice other than bell-ringing, nor would I allow a novice to belay me unsupervised whatever device they were using" to "nobody should use a Grigri and they are rubbish", aren't you?

Do you think it's OK to use the brake-assist feature of a Grigri to allow a novice to belay you unsupervised?

Do you accept that there is a higher risk of a novice fumbling the lowering with a Grigri than a classic tube type device?

"And if you look back at my post at 15:00 which you replied to, you'll see that it was not aimed at you but an open post to those of you who have difficulty operating Grigris. You do seem to have taken up the cause with gusto!"

Because I think they are counterintuitive, awkward devices to operate, quite apart from the fact that I can operate one!

Neil

In reply to Davon:

1000's of Americans learn to belay on a grigri and they seem to be doing ok.

People who don't use grigris a lot seem to be very skeptical of them.

In reply to jezb1:


Yes, and just about 100% of French novices. Maybe it's just a British thing?

In reply to johncook:

Never had any problems, no complaints from leaders, no abnormal wear on the biner or any issues at all in 8 months and getting on for 1000 climbs with it. It can give a harsh catch but no worse than a gri gri and certainly not an issue with a dynamic belay.

In reply to jon:

I think you are probably right Jon.

It takes us a while to catch on...!

In reply to jezb1:

I think it has more to do with the british obsession with double ropes. Although we are a slow bunch...

In reply to mike kann:

Good point.