/ Eating sandwiches in a pub garden
Now whilst I understand that the pub is a business and selling food is important to them, I think she was out of order because
a) We had all bought drinks, and would all have bought another round
b) It was obvious that we were one party and 4 had bought food
c) We were not taking up sitting space in the garden from other potential customers who might buy food. There was only one other couple in the garden
d) Her attitude put our backs up and we are unlikely to go there again, plus we will tell our friends - not good for business
OK we were out of order in assuming rather than asking her, but I think she over reacted.
What do others think about pubs that won't allow people to eat sandwiches in their garden if they have bought drinks? I'm talking about quiet times where you are not stopping meal paying customers from getting a seat. Obviously if seating and tables are at a premium then it's unreasonable to expect to do it.
She may have over reacted, really depends how abusive she was, but taking your own sandwiches to a pub that serves food is really out of order.
Echoed...its just not on to eat your own food in someone else's establishment.
Equally she shouldn't have been rude to you, but your actions put her in a situation whereby she had to approach you, and sometimes people don't always handle that in the best way.
It is rude, they are paying a chef to be on premises and you're chomping on butties there. If you are hungry and are on the premises then it's fair enough to expect you to order some of their food, you can always eat your butties later. This argument about it not being busy... it's a bit like expecting free parking when a car park isn't full (a bit :) ).
Out of order - you should be ashamed.
Definitely ask first.
I'd expect a lot of pubs to take the pragmatic view - particularly if you ask before you've ordered anything - that they'd rather have ten people ordering drinks but mostly eating their own sarnies than ten people buggering off to eat said sarnies elsewhere, but it's up to them to decide. Even if they're not full they might be worried that the next group to arrive will see you munching packed lunches and realise that they can pull a fast one by nipping into the village shop for pasties, for instance.
Some interesting comments, particularly the analogy with a paying car park which I hadn't considered.
I've already admitted that we were out of order in not asking first, so we were in the wrong. But I'm more interested in the principle here from the pub's business point of view.
They have 10 customers who have all bought a drink, and all are about to but another drink, so they had the potential income from 20 drinks. They had also sold 4 meals.
That's not an insubstantial cash flow on a quiet day. Allowing us to continue eating our own food* would have made no difference to this potential cash flow. However stopping us and being abusive resulted in the loss of 10 more drinks sales ie reduced cash flow and a potential loss of goodwill.
This doesn't make good business sense.
* I should add that we were being discreet in eating the sandwiches from lunch boxes on our laps and had not spread stuff over the garden tables like a picnic.
Discreet = sneaky, trying to hide it etc.
Feck cash flow, it is the principle. You did not ask and sneakily ate your own sandwiches.
Ultimately she is the loser -
She missed out on another round of drinks, maybe some deserts.
You and your party won't be returning in the future.
Your party's negative experience will be communicated and spread by word of mouth many times over.
She should have thought this over before twisting off.
I'm in the 'it's bad manners' camp. Following on from yesterday's thread, would you teach your children that it's okay to take your own food into an eating establishment?
I can't imagine you would do this in a cafe - ie all buy a drink and then get out your own food. I don't think it makes it OK just because you were sitting outside.
Are you really concerned about their cash flow or are you peeved that you were caught eating your own food on their premises?
As for abusive shouting. Did she come out swearing at you? Did you provoke her by trying to justify your actions? What exactly did she say?
Pubs generally make good money on food and very little on drinks - I'm not surprised she was upset.
I can see both sides of the argument here - though I think the landlady should have bit her tongue a little and took the hit on the lack of food being bought vs the potential income from another round being bought.
She could have handled it better for sure but it is cheeky to eat your own food in a place that serves food.
OK Hands up! I've admitted we were in the wrong and out of order.
What's with this witch hunt?
It's not a witch hunt - you asked for people's opinions and we've given them.
10 people, couple of Rounds of Drinks, Nearly half buying a Meal. Bad PR in this Interweb age.
Sounds like She mugged Herself.
WANTED: ANGRY MOB
By the power invested in me by a Sky News Text Poll I hereby request an angry mob be assembled henceforth to track down the fugitive known as Trangia. Ideal mob candidates should have the appearance of a medieval illiterate peasant farmer and possess a penchant for the smell of burnt human flesh. Pitchforks and scythe’s not provided
Thanks Cu (sorry can't do an acute)
I think it's difficult to be sure how it might affect her cash flow. She lost on this incident, but setting the precedent that it's OK to bring your own food might cost her more in the long run.
It's rarely good business to get abusive, of course.
Personally, being honest, had I been there, I'd probably have been one of the sandwich-eating crew. I'd probably have asked first, but that's easy to say sitting here - I might not have bothered.
However, I wouldn't complain if I was 'caught' then kicked out!
will there be a goodly Amount of Ducking before the burning?
Its not a Deal breaker for me if not, i just like to Know.
To the castle!
I'm probably the wrong person to ask, as I feel like a criminal using a pub loo when I have no intention of buying a drink in there.
I've done that before, too.
I don't often find myself in a pub with booze stashed in my rucksack these days, though.
She shouldn't be abusive, but equally I echo others' views that it's rude to eat your own food in an establishment that serves it.
Regarding that one, I don't see why pubs don't just charge for use of the toilets if not a customer.
I simply told you my view. How does that constitute a witch hunt?
Agree wholeheartedly. I'd of done the same and have done in the past. Flipping heck it's only some sandwiches and you have paid for drinks anyways.
Ignore the old feckers complaining, everyone's a critic.
Well done ;)
"Hi, we've got some sandwiches here, and we were going to eat them in a field somewhere and not come into your pub. But we'd actually like to buy a lot of alcoholic drinks from you while we do it...would that be ok?".
Maybe it depends on the situation, but if I was a pub owner, that situation would sound a lot more beneficial to my business than if you avoided my place completely. I'm making a bit of money from you from the drinks, as opposed to no money if you went elsewhere.
I guess in future, ask if it's ok first just to play it safe rather than just rock on up there and start eating your own stuff. that would get my back up a bit.
(never owned a pub, so this might be different in reality)
I dont see what the problem is,a quiet boozer,you've bought drinks and meals, mibbe a pack of crisps to go with the beers.
Sounds like she made you as welcome as a 'fart in a space suit'...name and shame? :-)
Airports are maybe an odd case, because almost all the outlets will be run by the same company as franchises anyway, so they don't care. Same with motorway services, with the notable exception of Greggs, the reason for this being that they are takeaway only so they don't pay VAT so eating in is not permitted (remember the pasty tax?), and this is made clear by the signage.
I think you should take into account that the landlady probably has to deal with incidents like this on a weekly basis wheras to you it's a one off.
Personally I would always ask and we frequently do as my wife is a coeliac and there often is little or no gluten-free food available so typically we'll buy drinks and I'll get a meal and she'll ask if she can eat what she's brought with her. Never had a problem with this.
I should try this: not a coeliac (though my dad is) but both me and my wife are vegetarians and while pubs may offer a 'veg' option, its often dire (or so basic / bland / unhealthy, e.g. pasta arrabiata, mac cheese etc) as to make hunger the better option.
Its worse, but getting Better, if youre Vegan. Urban places can be not too bad, but rural pubs pretty dire. Usually ends up being cheese ploughmans without the cheese and a plate of chips.
Not a witch hunt. As Tall Clare wrote, you wanted an opinion.
Can we toast the sandwiches on the pitchforks?
Absolutely not! There will be food Concession Stands at the burning for all your catering needs.
It depends on the type of pub it was - tenent landlords typically make negligible amounts on the drinks and need to make money on food and other stuff just to turn any profit. Free houses on the other hand should be making a decent profit on drinks sales too. If this was a tied house then I can certainly see why the landlady was upset and losing the sale of another round is unlikely to bother her as she'd only make a few pence off it anyway.
I do something similar here in France all the time. Buy a croissant from a boulangerie then go and eat it in a café with a coffee - BUT I ALWAYS ASK FIRST.
Edit - but I still think she was out of order and a bit thick not looking at the bigger picture.
Not unreasonable for allergy cases where the pub can't cater, though gluten free menus are getting more widely available all the time (I'm gluten intolerant, though undiagnosed because I gave it up before the test), and if it's home cooked food the chef can probably take you through what's suitable and what's not in person. But if the pub can cater, it's different. Again, ask first.
For cases where the person has chosen the restricted diet rather than it being medically needed, e.g. vegetarian/vegan, I think it's more of a case of choose a suitable pub.
Unless you're allergic to meat and dairy, that's your choice, and it's the choice of the pub whether they accommodate or not, IMO.
If i was Running an eaterie Kind of place, i would want a chef who can cater to customers dietary Requirements whether medical or through personal Preference, if just From a good for business Point of view.
Vegs tend to Know Other vegs, and will pass on Recommendations, as well as Coming Back for repeat custom. Thats what makes business, not a one off sale, the customer Coming Back Several Times.
Yes but a restaurant full of miserable sanctimonious vegans could well spoil the ambiance you are trying to create in your establishment.
I usually do: its one of the benefits of living in a city: far more choice beyond the typical carvery.
Rural / backward locations are great for visiting however, gives you a historical perspective.
We still don't know what this landlady's torrent of abuse was.
What might have sounded very abusive to a well-to-do Southerner, would probably be just a mild tongue lashing to a rough Yorkshire man like me! :-)
2/10 (being generous)
As you don't plan on going back, I hope there were 10 glasses dotted inconveniently around the garden.
Dont you Take your glasses home with you?
And Grab a couple of beer towels, perfect size for Squeaking yer boots at the crag.
Some eating establishments allow you to bring your own drink and charge a nominal "corkage". Perhaps pubs could charge "snap tinnage" to thrifty walkers?
our local pub in high street you are welcome to Take bag of chips or any Other Takeaway in and eat it at the bar or table.
where Trangia went Sounds Like an Uncivilised dump.
Is the pub food a bit shite?
I'm guessing it's an old-style pub that doesn't do food.
Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but you guys continued after I had admitted, more than once that we had been in the wrong/out of order. Why persist after I had admitted this? If that's not a witch hunt, what is it? Anyway Tu hit the nail on the head, join the mob and enjoy, but remember even stoves have their flash point :)
No. The management and staff need to pick their Stands and fights wisely. People Eating their own food aint one of them.
I'm sure it's lovely.
I made one comment offering my opinion after your OP invited this, then responded to your comment about a 'witch hunt' - that's hardly 'continuing' or 'persisting'. I think you're being a bit touchy here.
> Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but you guys continued after I had admitted, more than once that we had been in the wrong/out of order. Why persist after I had admitted this? If that's not a witch hunt, what is it? Anyway Tu hit the nail on the head, join the mob and enjoy, but remember even stoves have their flash point :)
But you're not wrong until I've TOLD you you're wrong ;-)
I suspect that this has turned into exactly the type of bun-fight that you knew it would when you posted the original message. Please don't try playing the "poor little me" card now.
When I worked in hospitality on the west coast, the main thing that boiled our piss was during the summer on evenings when we had music in the bar. About 7pm or so you'd get about 10 or so tourists who would come in and pull tables together, thus re-decorating the place for us, and pull them as close to where the band would be sitting as possible so they all got a good view, even if they blocked the aisles and everyone else's view. A polite request for them not to block the passage-ways would result in a stool being helpfully moved 10cm to the side. Then they would all order a soft drink each and sit and nurse it like a hand-warmer.
I wasn't even bar staff, but I would join them and the waiting staff in doing the rounds of glass collecting and deliberately hovering around tables like this looking for empty glasses. Each visit we'd keep asking them pointedly if they'd like another drink. The amateurs amongst them would have drunk up after an hour and then react surprised that we were asking them to buy another drink if they wanted to remain in the bar. The real tightwads would sit and sip a tall glass of water for a whole evening. But then, nothing like enjoying yourself and living it up when on holiday...
This was only the continental tourists, of course. The UK tourists, and especially the Glasgow away for the weekend brigade, would come in for the music and then sit or stand around the bar whooping, shouting, breaking out into song and trying to drink the bar dry.
Lets not over egg the cake.
Its busy, its peopled by Lots of interesting characters... theres a huge brainless ape who hates me for no reason and wants to hurt me... but he Leaves me alone because i have enough goodwill with the local people of good Standing who Matter.
I think you were badly mistreated and did right to vote with your feet.
She should be welcoming customers like you and so what if you munched a few sandwiches - you are there spending money as well. And she should be wowing everyone with hospitality and great food so next time you don't bring sandwiches!
Very short sighted by her and opportunity lost!
Obviously, in order to suit this UKC Morality Play....you told the landlady most of your team can only consume 'Halal Sarnies'?!....:-)
We need to know whether there were children in the party, whether they were eating sandwiches and whether they were running about / hurling excrement hither and thither.
No you didn't read the thread before you made your first post.
Sorry! I'll remember that :)
were the party consuming fine wine and foods on the deck of calmac the other day also out of order?
How on earth do you know that? I did, as a matter of fact. Perhaps pursue the people who are approaching this with more vigour?
I'll play whatever card I like thanks, but certainly wasn't expecting this sort of bun fight. Are you enjoying it? :)
Now who's being touchy?
I just don't understand where you're coming from. Most strange.
I am rather! :-)
I was merely pointing out that I was becoming frustrated by people continuing to say how wrong I had been after I had admitted I had been wrong which was beginning to look like a witch hunt.
Anyway don't worry I'm well over it now and it's not worth getting worked up about. :)
You should look at it this way. Pubs today, especially rural pubs, rely on the profits from food more than the profits from drink. One reason amongst several is the strict drink driving laws. If you are morally correct then you should also claim that you can go into a pub, ask for an empty glass and then produce a bottle of beer from your pocket, pour it into the landlady's glass and pay nothing. The empty glass equates to the empty garden tables and your own beer equates to the sandwiches.
Can you handle that way of thinking, I know that it is not self centered, do you?
think you're right about attitude. a contrasting example yesterday when eating chips by a fish stall in oban when the fisherman were delivering. chips were offered and finely cooked mussels in return..;)
I'll start my reply by saying we were out of order in the circumstances, so I'm not defending our actions.
I see where you are coming from, but surely that analogy would only apply if there is no profit at all from drinks? Otherwise surely from the pub owner's point of view some profit is better than none, so our sudden departure, didn't help her financially and she would have been better letting us stay?
Anyhoo... You oldies, ought to all have fired up a spliff each, and just said you had the munchies?
an empty rural pub with a miscreant in the garden can attract the punters..
Simple fact is; it's just manky behaviour and no one should need to be told. Nothing wrong with eating sandwiches, but have some class!
I think it's a crying shame.
The margins on food are much greater than on drinks - so a second round would not have been a profitable as food
In fact the margin on beer is only 1 or 2p a pint....
Who told you that?
What is the profit margin on beer?
Ask anyone in the pub trade...
About 1 or 2p a pint...
Providing the pub wasn't busy (as you stated), I can't understand why the landlady would have even asked you to stop eating your sandwiches, after all you were 10 people all consuming her drinks.
For me going to a pub is about enjoying a beer, not buying their food, a good pub focuses on their beer anyway.
Many. many times i have sat in a pub beer garden and whilst enjoying their beer have also eaten my own sandwiches, etc - and why ever not?
Being abusive towards customers - and you were customers having bought drinks there - this pub clearly has management issues. There are ways of addressing these matters without resorting to abuse. Don't go back there and as you say, tell all your friends.
To your original question, I think it's their house and their rules.
If you don't know the rules, you ask.
If you don't like the rules, you go somewhere else.
If you fall foul of the rules, you whinge about it on the internet and get defensive when people don't back you up.
It rather depends on the beer, who they can buy it from and what they sell it for.
tha get's forward from the crowd...��
One breakdown from a small-time distributor:
Although it's worth noting all the various disclaimers and caveats in the text as well as the headline figures...
I love doing things like that !
Only the other day, I bought a "Chicken Cajun" from McDonalds and took it to a nearby hyper-market café to enjoy it with the unlimited veg ! Having bought my can of beer in the hyper-market just before !
Saves me quite a few bob ! I've been doing this for years and the only time I've been caught out the guy just burst out laughing and said it wasn't costing him anything personally !
The most awkward time is when I've bought a bottle of wine in with me and the noise it makes when decorking it ! I always have my Swiss knife in my pocket ! On one ocassion, a waiter on Brittany Ferries "Pont Aven" looked at my bottle of wine on the table and said with a smile that he didn't know they did it !
I agree, also what if others saw the sandwiches and thought they looked poor quality,, and were then put off buying for that reason. They should have asked.
You have now discovered that for many on ukc the customer is always wrong! Every time someone posts a thread about even the most abysmal attitudes of shops, suppliers, whatever there are always people who pop up and growl that they were quite in the right to act like this... take a look at the BMC insurance thread, for example.
Maybe it's because many climbers are a bit masochistic on the side and adore being shafted? It could also be a British thing? It's a truly curious phenomenon and merits scientific study :-)
I think Bruce, many folk on here, including myself, have at some point in their lives worked in customer facing role/ service industry and seen first-hand that not only can the customer be wrong they can be bloody rude to boot. Not everyone of course, but more than you think!
I have myself experienced this but as I was trying to sell something I didn't let it worry me. I realise many think being rude to customers is ok but they tend to be in the same sort of places that close down fairly quickly. Apparently cause and event is never suspected.
> I was merely pointing out that I was becoming frustrated by people continuing to say how wrong I had been after I had admitted I had been wrong which was beginning to look like a witch hunt.
> Anyway don't worry I'm well over it now and it's not worth getting worked up about. :)
You're STILL wrong, y'know. Just sayin'... ;-)
You've hit the nail on the head here Bruce.
Yeah, I think staff actually being rude is not on, even if they're telling you you are doing something wrong. But equally, I think it's rude to consume your own food/drink in a place where food/drink is on sale without asking if it is OK first (and politely accepting a "no" even if it means you leave without making a purchase).
If you wanted to eat your sandwiches, I'd have done it elsewhere.
>Those who had not ordered meals started eating their sandwiches.
I'm surprised anyone thinks this is remotely acceptable behaviour.
The real problem is that people have forgotten how to behave. Of course the OP shouldn't have gone in there with his sandwiches, so blatantly. And pub owner was probably a bit OTT in her reaction. A non-problem, but the kind of problem we see now every day with the kind of tw*ts that wander around in the modern world with v little or no empathy it seems for other people, or understanding of their jobs (and v tight profit margins etc.).
In French cafés, especially in the country, villages, small towns, it used to be quite standard practice to buy your hot drinks, coffee, chocolate or whatever and then eat you own food while drinking them. It is not so common these days though. When pubs were pubs and only sold drinks eating a sandwich didn't shock either. On another line nowadays it is frequent in E London Indian restaurants which don't have a drinks licence to order a meal but consume beer or wine bought elsewhere - if you don't have any they will apologise that they can't sell alcoholic drinks and point out the nearest shop that does.
So the reaction of this pubperson and those posters supporting her churlish behaviour on this thread are not by any means defending a point of view that is all pervading.
The point of view that's all-pervading is that it's up to the business what they do and do not allow, and the punters have to respect that. (Some East London Indian places let you bring your own booze and others don't, and you'll get short shrift if you crack open some tinnies in one that doesn't.) And that it's basic politeness, if you don't know what's acceptable, to ask first rather than just going ahead.
This sounds as if it's more 'rambling' related than hillwalking.
Referring to customers as "punters" says it all really! I hope you don't work in a job which allows you access to your companies clients :-)
It does sound like it was an outing of the Yorkshire red socks brigade.
The High Weald reach the dizzy heights of 732 feet!
Conversely at every French ski resort I have visited there is normally some (unattractive concrete box) area reserved for "pique-nique" and woe betide you if you try to eat your own sandwiches in any bar area, regardless of how much overpriced drinks and/or food the rest of your party might buy.
Elsewhere on the site
The B.D.V. — short for Black Diamond Vertical — jacket and pants are Black Diamond’s most versatile climbing... Read more
October 21, 2014 – Textile Exchange, a global nonprofit dedicated to sustainability in the apparel and textile industry,... Read more
Climbing as a discipline offers plentiful metaphors for tackling life's obstacles - bravery, courage, climbing to... Read more
This streamlined, midweight thermal layer has an incredibly speedy moisture wicking ability and dries ultra fast if it gets... Read more
In tonight's Friday Night Video, we see Alex Honnold soloing Heaven 5.12d in Yosemite Valley. The route starts 3000ft above the... Read more