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Looking for a bit of help: my birthday is coming up and I'm trying to decide on a present from the other half. I can generally get away with something close to 80-90 quid, and as I don't tend to skimp on my gear, it can usually be something I don't absolutely need, wouldn't necessarily buy, but quite like the look of.
So, do I 'need' a Black Diamond axiom 40 pack or must I absolutely have a Camalot size 6 (which goes out to about eight inches)? I'd use the pack more, but the camalot is way more shiny and I can fondle it in front of the TV. I may even - eventually - find a climb it'll fit into. Either way, BD (and me) are happy.
Or is there something else which I wouldn't normally buy for myself which I couldn't possibly live without?
In anticipation of your considered responses
Martin
So, do I 'need' a Black Diamond axiom 40 pack or must I absolutely have a Camalot size 6 (which goes out to about eight inches)? I'd use the pack more, but the camalot is way more shiny and I can fondle it in front of the TV. I may even - eventually - find a climb it'll fit into. Either way, BD (and me) are happy.
Or is there something else which I wouldn't normally buy for myself which I couldn't possibly live without?
In anticipation of your considered responses
Martin
In reply to maisie:
If you do get the Camelot #6 (which really depends if there are any routes you really fancy that need big stuff), I got mine for £72 from Go Outdoors. They'll undercut anybody else, if it's in stock (I used Banana Fingers).
For another option, check out Totem Basics. I've just got three (blue, green and yellow), and I get the feeling they're going to get a lot of use, and because they're small and light, you can take them with you all the time (which you won't be doing with the Camelot).
If you do get the Camelot #6 (which really depends if there are any routes you really fancy that need big stuff), I got mine for £72 from Go Outdoors. They'll undercut anybody else, if it's in stock (I used Banana Fingers).
For another option, check out Totem Basics. I've just got three (blue, green and yellow), and I get the feeling they're going to get a lot of use, and because they're small and light, you can take them with you all the time (which you won't be doing with the Camelot).
In reply to maisie:
Have you compared the big Camelot to the size 6 WC Friend?
Most of my cams are Camelots, but the big Friend is better imo.
Happy birthday.
Have you compared the big Camelot to the size 6 WC Friend?
Most of my cams are Camelots, but the big Friend is better imo.
Happy birthday.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Perfectly sound advice - can't fault it and thanks. Unfortunately, I'd actually rather pay banana fingers the difference, as I've had great service from them in the past, and I've already got a couple of totems, what with them being gear I actually *need* as opposed to a frivolous 'want'
Haven't actually tested a totem yet, though - anybody taken a flyer onto one?
Perfectly sound advice - can't fault it and thanks. Unfortunately, I'd actually rather pay banana fingers the difference, as I've had great service from them in the past, and I've already got a couple of totems, what with them being gear I actually *need* as opposed to a frivolous 'want'
Haven't actually tested a totem yet, though - anybody taken a flyer onto one?
In reply to deepsoup:
Interesting. Why?
> Most of my cams are Camelots, but the big Friend is better imo.
Interesting. Why?
In reply to hang_about:
In my professional capacity (as a vet), I think I've had enough llamas to last several lifetimes. Including one close call with a suspected TB case and facefulls of spit.
Cute. Cuddly. Mental.
> Adopt a llama. You'll never look back.
In my professional capacity (as a vet), I think I've had enough llamas to last several lifetimes. Including one close call with a suspected TB case and facefulls of spit.
Cute. Cuddly. Mental.
In reply to maisie:
I thought the same before I sold my no.6 camalot. There were a couple of reasons, when pulling the trigger to use the cam in the narrower end of the range the stem was too flexible and would bend over and secondly the spring action in the wider end of the range was weak so it walked about a lot in cracks.
> Interesting. Why?
I thought the same before I sold my no.6 camalot. There were a couple of reasons, when pulling the trigger to use the cam in the narrower end of the range the stem was too flexible and would bend over and secondly the spring action in the wider end of the range was weak so it walked about a lot in cracks.
In reply to maisie:
So you want to pay (or get someone else to pay) more than you need to, for something you might hardly use. I'd would say, I'm in the wrong job, if I had a job.
So you want to pay (or get someone else to pay) more than you need to, for something you might hardly use. I'd would say, I'm in the wrong job, if I had a job.
In reply to maisie:
At that enormous size the benefits of the Camelot's double axles are really marginal - the Friend has almost exactly the same range with a single axle and a slighly shallower.
I can't really quantify it though - I went into the shop intending to buy a Camelot, and after a surprisingly short time fondling the shiny toys came out very happy with my new Friend.
At that enormous size the benefits of the Camelot's double axles are really marginal - the Friend has almost exactly the same range with a single axle and a slighly shallower.
I can't really quantify it though - I went into the shop intending to buy a Camelot, and after a surprisingly short time fondling the shiny toys came out very happy with my new Friend.
In reply to maisie:
Speaking of which:
http://barnacre-alpacas.co.uk/
I adopted one of the herd here as a birthday present - many brownie points were earned. We went to visit, and Debbie (who is absolutely lovely, and clearly very passionate about her alpacas) spent ages showing us around and introducing us to pretty much the entire herd. (More brownie points.)
Not a good present for a vet though, obviously.
> Cute. Cuddly. Mental.
Speaking of which:
http://barnacre-alpacas.co.uk/
I adopted one of the herd here as a birthday present - many brownie points were earned. We went to visit, and Debbie (who is absolutely lovely, and clearly very passionate about her alpacas) spent ages showing us around and introducing us to pretty much the entire herd. (More brownie points.)
Not a good present for a vet though, obviously.
In reply to deepsoup:
A completely compelling argument which speaks to me viscerally as a fellow climber. Whilst the advice above about stem flexibility and over-leveraging the camming angle is the kind of brilliant experiential knowledge that occasionally pops up on the site, words like fondling and shiny punch my ticket every time.
> I can't really quantify it though - I went into the shop intending to buy a Camelot, and after a surprisingly short time fondling the shiny toys came out very happy with my new Friend.
A completely compelling argument which speaks to me viscerally as a fellow climber. Whilst the advice above about stem flexibility and over-leveraging the camming angle is the kind of brilliant experiential knowledge that occasionally pops up on the site, words like fondling and shiny punch my ticket every time.
In reply to gethin_allen:
I'm not sure that climbing-related advice gets better than that. Notwithstanding the above comments about shiny things, of course.
> I thought the same before I sold my no.6 camalot. There were a couple of reasons, when pulling the trigger to use the cam in the narrower end of the range the stem was too flexible and would bend over and secondly the spring action in the wider end of the range was weak so it walked about a lot in cracks.
I'm not sure that climbing-related advice gets better than that. Notwithstanding the above comments about shiny things, of course.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Not exactly - I shop in aldi because a tin of baked beans is a tin of baked beans. But banana fingers have given me some good service and seem interested in selling decent gear. Go outdoors strike me as an outfit who would be happier to sell cr@p jackets at 3% profit than cams at 2.9%. And who would put the specialist outlets out of business, and then not stock the cams. Then we'd all lament the decline of proper climbing shops....
Honest opinion, of course.
But I live in a cheap house, drive an old Fiat Panda and paid my (small) mortgage off early. So a few quid spent on my hobby isn't such a frippery
> So you want to pay (or get someone else to pay) more than you need to, for something you might hardly use. I'd would say, I'm in the wrong job, if I had a job.
Not exactly - I shop in aldi because a tin of baked beans is a tin of baked beans. But banana fingers have given me some good service and seem interested in selling decent gear. Go outdoors strike me as an outfit who would be happier to sell cr@p jackets at 3% profit than cams at 2.9%. And who would put the specialist outlets out of business, and then not stock the cams. Then we'd all lament the decline of proper climbing shops....
Honest opinion, of course.
But I live in a cheap house, drive an old Fiat Panda and paid my (small) mortgage off early. So a few quid spent on my hobby isn't such a frippery
In reply to deepsoup:
Not so much. Although I can see how a long-distance llama would appeal to the other half. Which is, after all, the name of the game.
Doesn't anybody consider the sack to be a better buy?
> Not a good present for a vet though, obviously.
Not so much. Although I can see how a long-distance llama would appeal to the other half. Which is, after all, the name of the game.
Doesn't anybody consider the sack to be a better buy?
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
The cost of an item isn't just about the actual number of pounds you have to hand over to the cashier when you buy it.
> So you want to pay (or get someone else to pay) more than you need to, for something you might hardly use. I'd would say, I'm in the wrong job, if I had a job.
The cost of an item isn't just about the actual number of pounds you have to hand over to the cashier when you buy it.
In reply to maisie:
Not quite a flyer but I took a ~3m fall onto a blue totem basic (had other gear just below) and it held, although the lobes have a big mark on them now!
Instead of a really big cam, buy a ridiculously small one (smallest BD X4?). Nice and shiny and one day you might realistically get a 'thank god' placement with it
> Haven't actually tested a totem yet, though - anybody taken a flyer onto one?
Not quite a flyer but I took a ~3m fall onto a blue totem basic (had other gear just below) and it held, although the lobes have a big mark on them now!
Instead of a really big cam, buy a ridiculously small one (smallest BD X4?). Nice and shiny and one day you might realistically get a 'thank god' placement with it
In reply to maisie:
Go Outdoors are going to put Banana Fingers out of business, and then not stock the cams. Are you sure? Wouldn't they be better off selling both jackets (some of which are very good jackets) and cams, and make a profit on both?
Go Outdoors are going to put Banana Fingers out of business, and then not stock the cams. Are you sure? Wouldn't they be better off selling both jackets (some of which are very good jackets) and cams, and make a profit on both?
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
If you considered the value to you of some other shop's continued existence to be non-zero, then the cost of buying something from GO instead of the other shop is the £ cost plus some increased probability that the other shop will not be there in the future. This probability and the value of the other shops existence then need to be weighed up against the difference in prices of whatever you're buying from the two shops. Different people will make this calculation differently and come up with different answers as to where the best place for them to buy the item from is.
There isn't a single right or wrong answer. The only wrong answer is to fail to acknowledge this trade off, buy everything from GO, assume that other shops will continue to exist all the same, then complain when they don't.
If you considered the value to you of some other shop's continued existence to be non-zero, then the cost of buying something from GO instead of the other shop is the £ cost plus some increased probability that the other shop will not be there in the future. This probability and the value of the other shops existence then need to be weighed up against the difference in prices of whatever you're buying from the two shops. Different people will make this calculation differently and come up with different answers as to where the best place for them to buy the item from is.
There isn't a single right or wrong answer. The only wrong answer is to fail to acknowledge this trade off, buy everything from GO, assume that other shops will continue to exist all the same, then complain when they don't.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I'm not looking for a spat - this is my birthday present we're talking about - but it worries me that the putting banana fingers out of business isn't a concern to you. And once they do, there are two scenarios: they continue to stock cams but have next to no knowledge of technical gear at the customer interface; or they stop stocking cams in order to provide the most streamlined (and thus profitable) business model that they can. Both of which are a disaster.
Yes, I'm lucky that a tenner's difference in cost won't affect me. But I think that exercising your buying power should go deeper than that anyway. But as I say, not looking for an argument - just answering your question and hoping to leave it there.
Martin
> Go Outdoors are going to put Banana Fingers out of business, and then not stock the cams. Are you sure? Wouldn't they be better off selling both jackets (some of which are very good jackets) and cams, and make a profit on both?
I'm not looking for a spat - this is my birthday present we're talking about - but it worries me that the putting banana fingers out of business isn't a concern to you. And once they do, there are two scenarios: they continue to stock cams but have next to no knowledge of technical gear at the customer interface; or they stop stocking cams in order to provide the most streamlined (and thus profitable) business model that they can. Both of which are a disaster.
Yes, I'm lucky that a tenner's difference in cost won't affect me. But I think that exercising your buying power should go deeper than that anyway. But as I say, not looking for an argument - just answering your question and hoping to leave it there.
Martin
In reply to CMcBain:
Got 'em already - hence the point about birthday presents being an indulgence, not a genuine need. (Not got an x4, though.......)
> Instead of a really big cam, buy a ridiculously small one (smallest BD X4?). Nice and shiny and one day you might realistically get a 'thank god' placement with it
Got 'em already - hence the point about birthday presents being an indulgence, not a genuine need. (Not got an x4, though.......)
In reply to maisie:
That red X4 is so sweet though & has already provided a thank god placement for me.
Ticks both boxes of being an indulgance if you already have the cams & a genuine need..
That red X4 is so sweet though & has already provided a thank god placement for me.
Ticks both boxes of being an indulgance if you already have the cams & a genuine need..
In reply to maisie:
Nobody is looking for a spat Martin. I wasn't criticising, I make enough frivolous purchases myself. Happy Birthday.
Nobody is looking for a spat Martin. I wasn't criticising, I make enough frivolous purchases myself. Happy Birthday.
In reply to victim of mathematics:
I agree. I buy from all sorts of shops, both Needlesports (Keswick) and The Climbers Shop (Ambleside) just last weekend.
I wanted a Camelot #6, but I just wanted the best price for such an expensive item (helps to justify a frivolous purchase). Also, Go Outdoors is pretty much the closest place to me for gear. I'm not even sure where my nearest independent climbing shop is.
I agree. I buy from all sorts of shops, both Needlesports (Keswick) and The Climbers Shop (Ambleside) just last weekend.
I wanted a Camelot #6, but I just wanted the best price for such an expensive item (helps to justify a frivolous purchase). Also, Go Outdoors is pretty much the closest place to me for gear. I'm not even sure where my nearest independent climbing shop is.
In reply to maisie:
Sounds like your already llama-ed up!
> In my professional capacity (as a vet), I think I've had enough llamas to last several lifetimes. Including one close call with a suspected TB case and facefulls of spit.
> Cute. Cuddly. Mental.
Sounds like your already llama-ed up!
In reply to maisie:
Set of Viamont / Kouba tri-cams on wire. It's the very definition of frivolity in gift-giving.
Set of Viamont / Kouba tri-cams on wire. It's the very definition of frivolity in gift-giving.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
Nope, that's a NEED, not a want. And a need I didn't know I had, which is better still.
> Set of Viamont / Kouba tri-cams on wire. It's the very definition of frivolity in gift-giving.
Nope, that's a NEED, not a want. And a need I didn't know I had, which is better still.
In reply to maisie:
Well then, I've answered the OP! And you'll have at least £30 change for fizzy pop
Well then, I've answered the OP! And you'll have at least £30 change for fizzy pop
In reply to maisie:
Look. LOOK! Never mind the appalling CAMP Carvex 7. Look at that tri-cam!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-straggler/13889961569/in/set-72157644439...
Look. LOOK! Never mind the appalling CAMP Carvex 7. Look at that tri-cam!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-straggler/13889961569/in/set-72157644439...
In reply to Blue Straggler:
No. I can buy a 'need' if I 'need' it. So I can have a tricam (although, looking at that picture, I'm wavering. Is it upside down?) without infringing on birthday privileges.
Shouldn't I get the rucksack?
No. I can buy a 'need' if I 'need' it. So I can have a tricam (although, looking at that picture, I'm wavering. Is it upside down?) without infringing on birthday privileges.
Shouldn't I get the rucksack?
In reply to maisie:
Job done. Got neither the axiom nor the cam. The Montane Torque has been on sale at Blacks for ages, and was too much of a snip at sixty-five quid.
But as I really, really need a massive cam, I may try my luck next month.
Many thanks
Martin
Job done. Got neither the axiom nor the cam. The Montane Torque has been on sale at Blacks for ages, and was too much of a snip at sixty-five quid.
But as I really, really need a massive cam, I may try my luck next month.
Many thanks
Martin
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