UKC

Hello there
Anyone has got a comparison between the Trango Cinch and Petzl GriGri 2 devices in terms of lowering, belaying, jumaring and general use?
Which one is better now? I've found some posts on the forum but they are qyuite old now and the second version of GriGri wasnt out yet.

So now, in 2014 how would You compare the Cinch to the GriGri 2?
They both about the same weight and size.
I've read that, while jumaring and cleaning the pitch the rope feeds throught the Cinch easier than the GriGri but I've also read that people had some problems with the Cinch that lead to some accidents..
Which one would You recommed for, especially, aid climbing?

Cheers
Mike

In reply to mike.gore:

cinch is really nice for belaying with, feeds really well (better than the gri gri 2) but takes a little (or very little) practice to get fluent at.

Lowering is more "twitchy" than with a gri gri 2 but is not "bad".

I've seen a lot of people saying that it works better than gri gri 1 / 2 for ascending and top rope solo.

Haven't heard of any accidents with it that wouldn't happen with a gri gri - ie all the accidents are people being stupid. Did hear of the first model having lowering issues but that issue was sorted out and now they are all fine.

Cinch is also less common = better in my eyes, however, this means people are like "WTF is that, I don't recognise it so I don't trust it".

For aid specifically? the cinch over gri gri 2 - but, I would guess that a normal ascender and guide mode type belay device would do the job better and around the same weight.

Stu

In reply to StuMsg:

thanks!
What I mean for aid - I mean to have a backup device when cleaning a traversing terrain pitch from the gear. You clip the ascenders one by one through the pieces, they're are often in awkward positions so they can sometimes become unclipped from rope. You tie a backup knots of course but it is also nice if You had some kind of a backup device such as these two. The Cinch feeds the rope better but I think I like the functionality of the GriGri2 more.. I think I'll go with the GriGri2 this time.

In reply to StuMsg:

I have the exact opposite experience.

One of my colleagues (who is currently in the next room) was badly dropped when belayed by a Cinch. Also, I have read about numerous accidents and incidents online, most of them not related to the clearly defined issues that effect GriGris.

I would not wish to be belayed by one (which probably answers the OPs question).

In reply to mike.gore:

Had a cinch but lost it, it was good, no issues I can remember. Watch the video before you use one. Oh and it didn't like icy ropes.

In reply to mike.gore:

I own a cinch so I suppose I'm biased but still. I prefer the cinch as it is easier to pay out rope in a fluid manner. The cinch was nicer to use as an ascender than the grigri I but I haven't tried the grigri II in that manner.

The cinch is also a more reassuring product being composed of essentially only two bits of machined aluminium with the lowering handle not being integral to the construction in the slightest.

Lowering is worse with the cinch though without question

In reply to Hannes:




The Cinch is nowhere as robust or strong as a GriGri, it also wears out far faster.
i wouldn´t allow anyone to belay me with one either.

In reply to jimtitt:

Really ??

In reply to ColdWill:

Yes.

In reply to jimtitt:

Have you any test results or evidence to support this assertion or that a cinch has failed due to a mechanical failure?

For you, that sounds like an emotional response. Have you any seen or heard of any reports where a problem occurred with a cinch that would not have happened with a Gri Gri?

In reply to mike.gore:

Thank You all for the discussion.
I've checked out the Cinch at my friend's crib and I've decided to go with the GriGri 2. Mostly because I found a great deal on it. I also prefer the functionality of the GriGri 2.
What kinda disturbed me the most in the Cinch is that the rope practically doesn't break on the device (that's why it's easier to pay out the rope) and there's hardly any braking force aside from the cam. So your braking force relies mostly on the cam.
I guess that if the cam fails - it could be a very painful experience to catch a fall. One can end up with burned hands at best.

Moreover, I find the Cinch much less intuitive than the GriGri 2.
Yes, there's instruction, youtube video of how to use it.. BUT - on the wall, during the climb, in some stressful situation, you might "forget" about it, and your brain may start to seek the most intuitive and simplest solutions. The GriGri 2 is WAY more intuitive to use than the Cinch and kinda 'responds' to the basic human instincts/impulses. (the direction of the handle movement, the shape of the device )

In reply to mike.gore:

Looks weird the cinch, quite a counter inuitive belay. It's kind of like overiding the gri-gri's cam all the time, and relying on the fall to reorient the device in a locking position. I can see why it would give a smoother feed however, as unlike the gri gri the rope travels in a straightline. Does looks as if there is less friction than a gri gri for lowering and abseiling (gloves are recommended by trango). Looks lighter and cheaper construction, I imagine it would wear out quicker (if this is a consideration).

In reply to mike.gore:

How does the Edelrid Eddy Measure up to these Two?

In reply to Choss:
Heavy Eddy is almost twice the weight of the Grigri.

In reply to FreshSlate:
yes! I have exactly the same feeling about the Cinch!

In reply to MikeYouCanClimb:



I´ve tested six Cinches in various ways, both pull and drop testing and in the same way I test the GriGri. Two of the Cinches were new and the other four discarded by their owners after they failed to perform as required.
The DAV have also tested a number, 12 as far as I know. Mostly examples sent in after the owners had concerns or difficulties (that is they dropped the climber).

As I said the Cinch is substantially weaker than the Grigri when pull or drop tested even after the re-design to strengthen it (the early models were so weak even Trango though they had better do something). I have one example where the bend in the plate is severe enough to allow the rope to be released at a load feasible in a climbing fall.

There are reports of excessive wear and bending of the plate allowing the retaining tab to pass behind the body and the rope has released. I have one example which can do this and the DAV one or more.

There are reports of wear causing the retaining tab to jam on the body preventing the device from braking, a wear stripe on the edge of the aluminium body is a typical early symptom. I have two examples which do this.

Wear of the pin preventing locking under body weight is well known and documented, the fix is widely publicised on climbing forums. I have seen several like this and one of mine will not hold my weight using the smallest alllowed rope.

All the above are problems caused by trying to make the device lighter and in all respects it is weaker, less robust and wears out faster than a Grigri.

Additionally the Cinch has a fundamental design feature which means the faster the rope travels through it the less braking effect it has. Whether the designer meant this to be so is not known but this was originally touted as a benefit in the advertising. It is clearly observable in drop tests where under more severe falls the amount of slip is alarming in my opinion. The Grigri on the other hand is a model of consistency allowing between 4 and 8cm slip no matter what the fall is.
The inumerable reports of experienced belayers with rope burns and climbers decking are testimony to the fact this is not only a theoretical curiosity (albeit an interesting one) but a basic flaw which in my opinion makes it worthless. A statistical accident rate six times higher than the Grigri as noted by the DAV reinforces my decision never to use one or allow myself to be belayed with one.

In reply to jimtitt:

Damage to the edge of the body can cause a jam but how the hell do you bend the plate?

In reply to ColdWill:

The one I was given came from the Frankenjura and had taken rather too many hard falls. The other one I pull tested to see what happened so it was easy to bend it!

In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks Jim for your comprehensive answer, a very thought provoking response.
I am off to try a few drop tests on the Gri Gri 1/ 2 and a cinch to see for myself the differences.

In reply to jimtitt:

I have been using a Cinch for several years now - roughly 3 times a week on an indoor wall.
There is no evidence of wear or weakness and I can't imagine how the plate could become damaged.
Yes, the lowering off lever could be improved by making it bigger and easier to handle.
Yes, the Cinch needs careful handling. I did get a nasty burn on my hand once about 18 months ago but that was my fault because I was inattentive as the leader was about to clip the lower off.
I was paying out when he unexpectedly fell - about half the height of the wall before the Cinch locked. The moral of the story being - pay attention.

In reply to jimtitt:
At What sort of force did it deform? Did it not slip before it deformed? I have seen the slo mo of the knot against the plate failure and the plate didn't deform, the knot was used to stop slippage and therefor increase the force.

In reply to Oceanwall:

Ouch! How bad?

In reply to FreshSlate:
I climbed immediately afterwards buy in finger had a deep burn that took a moth to heal.

In reply to FreshSlate:
I climbed immediately afterwards but one finger had a deep burn that took a moth to heal.

In reply to Oceanwall:

Month!

In reply to ColdWill:


That´s how the UIAA/EN test is performed, it isn´t a test of the braking or slip characteristic but of the ultimate strength of the device itself and it´s attatchment point. The manufacturers cannot guarantee that in use there won´t be a knot or tangle in the system (and a lot of us do put a slipped overhand in the rope if we are going hands-off for some reason) so it is reasonable to expect any device to survive tested this way. The force is 8kN and the device shall not release the rope and the device shall continue to function properly. The rope shall not break.