UKC

Probably some who cherish Ben Alder and the surrounding landscape aren't aware of a proposal recently submitted for planning (which the JMT are opposed to):

http://www.keeprannochwild.org.uk/

In reply to llechwedd:

It seems nothing is sacred. Soon, Scotland may be a place that no one wants to visit? Short sitedness if this gets approval. Rannoch is symbolic of remote wilderness. What do younger people think of these farms?

In reply to Skol:

There is no wilderness in Scotland.

I am against this wind farm but not surprised by it. Whilst landownership and rules remain as they are this will keep happening.

The owners of this place is:

Owner Adrianus JM van Well, Maria FB van as-van Well and Cornelius SC van Well
Owner Address c/o Adrianus van Well
Diepenbrocklaan 51
3055 WB
rotterdam
THE NETHERLANDS

He is the one we need to get stuck into.

In reply to llechwedd:

will share this with others

In reply to Saor Alba:

That's subjective.

I'm not surprised at all either. What is Salmonds take on this?

Thanks for the address, I will send a complaint, for what it's worth .

In reply to Skol:

This wind farm is one of the most damaging to wild land yet proposed. The people to influence lie within the Scottish Government. Details of how to make representations, and suggestions re what to say, are available on the Mountaineering Council of Scotland website- http://www.mcofs.org.uk/talladh-a-bheithe-wind-farm-campaign.asp
These must be made by 5th August.
It is worrying that many people are currently on holiday so it is essential that as many people write as possible. If you are a member of a hill walking or climbing club, then it would be great if a letter or email is sent in the club's name including a statement as to how many members the club represents.
Through the new Scottish planning guidance there are signs that the Scottish Government is, at last, taking the protection of wild land more seriously and the North East Mountain Trust's objection to this proposal will commend the Scottish Government for its commitment to wild land.
People do get cynical about trying to influence Governments but they are there to be influenced. Please do get writing.
George Allan (North East Mountain Trust)

In reply to llechwedd:

Thanks for drawing this to our attention. I've just written to them at representations@scotland.gsi.gov.uk . I put this...


Dear Sir or Madam

I am in favour of wind power, but we need to be careful of where wind farms are sited. Rannoch Moor is one of Scotland's most iconic and celebrated landscapes, and it would be crazy to put a wind farm there. Doing so would cause irreversible damage to a unique and irreplaceable wilderness. So please don't.

In reply to Saor Alba:



The Scottish Government could very easily send a very clear message to say that planing permission will not be given for windfarms in areas such as this. There's no need to wait for changes in landownership rules.

In reply to llechwedd:

Am I right in thinking the wind farm would be around here?
http://www.gaelicplacenames.org/maps/map.html?g=NN524612

(going from the reference given and the pictures here http://www.keeprannochwild.org.uk/page33.php )

I think some people may be seeing 'Rannoch', and thinking 'Rannoch Moor' - if I've understood the site correctly, it is not on Rannoch Moor and probably not all that visible from much of it.

I'm unsure about this one. If we need more wind power, there are areas I'd prefer to see protected than the land between Loch Ericht, Loch Rannoch and the A9 near Drumochter - which is already riddled with roads, tracks and planted forestry.

If the argument is that we don't need more wind power, and should be working on something else instead, surely that would be better directed against that policy in general rather than specific sites?

In reply to tony:

Maybe those with a vote in the coming referendum should make it clear to the Scottish government exactly where that vote will be going.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

It's not on Rannoch Moor.

In reply to tony:

Yes they could but wont as they are pro wind. The best way to stop this would be at source.

Why wait until the thing has gathered momentum and getting involved at the very last minute? The MCofS didn't know who owned the land and have a policy of not naming the landowners who are the ones behind this and profiting from it.

The current tactics are clearly failing.

In reply to Ann65:

In which way would that be? The UK Government provides the subsidy and the Scottish Government the permission. Both Labour and the Lib Dems are also supportive of the current system. If you don't vote for change then it will continue.

In reply to Saor Alba:

So even if you vote for change it will still continue?

In reply to Ann65:

I don't know. Personally I think the system of land ownership needs to be massively changed and that wont happen as part of the UK as landownership is a foundation of the current system.

Let's keep on topic. My main point is that simply getting rid of the SNP, in this case, is meaningless as both the Lib Dems and Labour also support wind power. The system needs to be changed.

I know the planning officer in Highland who deals with the wind farms and believe me long before you or I or the Government hears about these proposals or they get to application stage the developer and landowner have struck a deal and worked out what the MCofS might say etc and how the Government might deal with it.

Currently we are avoiding naming the people involved and waiting until the whole things has been worked up and only then mounting some muted opposition without naming the people involved. Pointless.

In reply to Saor Alba:


As far as the source is concerned, this is a way to make money. As a commercial organisation, the estate has to look at all avenues for generating revenue, and at the moment, erecting wind turbines is a fairly straightforward option. Asking them not to build a windfarm will have as much effect as asking Tesco to stop selling Corn Flakes.

By contrast, it's an easy message to go from Government, to say this proposal is not acceptable.

In reply to Saor Alba:


Don't the attempts by the Assynt Foundation to build a "community owned" wind farm in Glencanisp suggest that land ownership isn't the whole problem?

For a whole raft of other reasons I'm very much in favour of land reform and increased small-scale or community-based land ownership in Scotland, but I'm not sure that it's a magic bullet to stop this sort of environmental vandalism.

In reply to skog:

Exactly. If wind power is going to be a major source of energy, about 12x as many turbines need to be built. If this is the case they're going to need to go in an awful lot more places. This is for energy and not just electricity; as we move away from fossil fuels they will be supplanted by electricity.

If wind power is not going to be a major source of energy in the UKs or Scotland's future, then the subsidies that makes these farms profitable should be removed and diverted to a technology that is going to be a major source of energy in the future.

As there is no magic energy fairy, that currently boils down to oil/coal/gas or fission.

In reply to tony:

I don't think you are following me. I am not saying we should ask them, I am saying we need reform and to stop them through legal means.

The land is used as a tax subsidy for land owners.

The point also is that the majority of the population, I think, support wind power but have little understanding of it.

The current tactics are failing.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Well yes if you choose one situation and extrapolate that to include all situations. However I don't think that holds water.

In reply to Ann65:


A but the beauty of that is, that better together have pointed out there will be no investment by rUK in Windfarms in Scotland if it was to become Independent.(So Salmond would not have the money to do it according to BT)

(Added to the long list of thisngs it would not do)

In reply to Saor Alba:




You're right, I'm not following you. I don't really see what point you're trying to make. What's the point of naming the developers?


As far as I can see, you're proposing that changes in land ownership laws will be an answer. But there doesn't seem to be any prospect of any such change in the laws, so waiting for a change of heart in government or a change of government will have no effect whatsoever on the proposed windfarm.

In reply to tony:

Em to apply pressure to them and educate the population that it is the landowners and developers who are the catalyst, enablers and drivers of wind farms in these areas.

I am saying land reform, along with changes to subsidies, are the most effective way of changing how the land is used and who benefits from that.

Currently the biggest problem is over population of deer, not wind farms, and there are no controls on this and for the destruction only a tiny number of people benefit. I want to change to a less destructive and more mutually beneficial system. Only land reform will deliver that.

In reply to Saor Alba:


The enablers are those who give permission. If permission were denied, the issue would be solved.



And who will deliver land reform, government or landowners? At the moment, it's neither.

In reply to tony:

No it wouldn't as sometimes they will get permission, sometimes not. Why leave it to chance and allow the thing to get going and then at the last moment try and do something.

Land reform will only be delivered by a government when there is enough pressure on them to do so. Currently there isn't. Zero chance of the UK doing anything here and maybe the SG by whichever party gets in. Labour maybe?

In reply to Saor Alba:


If the government sent strong messages, which it could easily do, these things wouldn't get off the ground. You're not going to stop commercial organisations trying to make money by appealing to their better nature. You will stop them by telling them such schemes aren't acceptable.


Obviously not, since land ownership legislation is a devolved issue.


Certainly not the SNP, if their track record is anything to go by.

In reply to tony:

I am not sure where the misunderstanding is here but I am not suggesting appealing to their better nature. I am suggesting ignoring their nature and stopping them do this. I haven't mentioned anything about better nature.

Land reform wont happen in the UK to the point of stopping this. Land and power go hand in hand in the UK, of which Scotland is currently part.

In reply to Saor Alba:


How do you propose to stop them if not by government action?


And as you well know, land ownership legislation is a devolved issue, and one area that the SNP government has had no apparent interest in addressing.

In reply to tony:

Sigh, I can't be bothered arguing with you. Fundamentally I think the current tactic is a total failure (clearly from what is happening).

I am not sure which part of my message is unclear but I think we should stop them through legislation (land reform legislation). Specifically through wide range reform which places a legal obligation on land owners to have a community and biodiversity plan and including in the plan is the legal obligation for all scheme such as these to be beneficial, at least 50/50 profit share, with the community.

The Biodiversity and landscape bit would also consider the visual impact and be legally enforceable.

a) I think we should name and shame the land owners.

Yes I do know that landownership is devolved and as you know tax isn't. The two go hand in hand and the current mess is partly caused by the lack of strategic thinking.

Have you been following the findings of the land review group which the Government actually welcomed?

In reply to Saor Alba:



I think you'll find I've been asking about legislation, but to date, there has been zero appetite for legislation on the part of the Scottish Government. Waiting for action in that respect is not going to have any bearing on the proposed Rannoch windfarm.


All well and good, but when's that going to happen? You've been making the same points for a long time. It's all fine talking about theory, but even with a willing government, and such land reform legislation would be many years down the road and would have no relevance to the proposed Rannoch windfarm. In practice, an immediate response would be for the Scottish Government to say it opposes such schemes. I can't really work out why you don't think that would be an appropriate way ahead in the short-term, while we're waiting for a governing party to come along which does actually care about this sort of thing.


Fine, but to what end? What do you think that would achieve?


So, the Scottish Government should be taking a lead by asserting its position on those issues over which it does have control - planning and land ownership. To date, it has completely failed to show such leadership.


Yes, it has all the hallmarks of the issue being kicked into the long grass. Welcoming a report is one thing. Actually doing something about it quite different. There certainly won't be a useful outcome that has any bearing on the proposed Rannoch windfarm.

In reply to skog:


The MCofS link suggests that it would be visible even from the other side of the moor, from the A82

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Good on you Tim!
Great that the MCofS are highlighting the issue.

If some people don't think it important, that's down to personal choice.

However it'd be a shame if people were reticent about raising an objection because they weren't able to quote chapter and verse on 'Policy'.
There's plenty of info' on the keeprannochwild and MCofS links to help formulate a simple objection.

In reply to Saor Alba:
Depends how you define Rannoch Moor. If you think Rannoch Moor is what lies between the A82 and the Ben Alder watershed, then no, it's not on Rannoch Moor. If you count as Rannoch Moor anything in the Rannoch area that is a moor, then maybe... But that's not really the main point here.

In reply to Saor Alba:

This proposed wind farm has generated a lot of discussion about land reform. But this is confusing two separate issues. Land reform in Scotland, including reform of deer policy,is long overdue and it will, indeed, be interesting to see how the Scottish Government responds in practice to the recent report of the Land Reform Group. However, you could change the ownership of wild land in Scotland and make no difference to the protection of wild land because the latter is primarily a matter for the planning system and not who owns the land.

Belatedly the Scottish Government has acknowledged through the recently published 'National Planning Framework 3' and 'Scottish Planning Policy' and Scottish Natural Heritage's Wild Land Map the importance of protecting wild land and that wind farms in such areas may well not be appropriate. North East Mountain Trust does not think that the 'Scottish Planning Policy' document goes far enough but does commend the Government for taking the issue of wild land more seriously at last.

Thanks to all who have written to the Energy Consents and Deployment Unit re Talladh-a-Bheithe. A reminder for those who haven't- please do, the Mountaineering Council of Scotland website gives good advice on what to say http://www.mcofs.org.uk/talladh-a-bheithe-wind-farm-campaign.asp

For anyone interested, the above mentioned documents are available at:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/planning/NPF3-SPP-Revie...
http://www.snh.gov.uk/protecting-scotlands-nature/looking-after-landscapes/...

George (North East Mountain Trust)

In reply to George Allan:

I don't disagree with you George but I am not talking about who owns it. I am talking about what the owners can do with it. Currently there are almost no restrictions on multiple things such as tracks, deer numbers and so on as you know. I want radical change to that but I know it won't come over night.

I have already written to the minister and discussed with the MCofS about 2 weeks ago. What worried me is that they hadn't looked in to who owns this land meaning the persons who profit from it, long after and government disappears, remain anonymous and totally free from any criticism. That is not right in my view.

BTW - It's Talladh a' Bheithe. No need for the hyphens in this situation. The estate and press have it wrong.

In reply to llechwedd:

I think that windfarms would be a lot more tolerable if they were part of a package that reduced the number of deer and sheep in Scotland and created more interesting biodiversity starting with trees/shrubs/plants. Placed on a more covered with herbivores it is the the last straw in the taming of the 'wilderness'.

In reply to Saor Alba:

Landowners/developers are named here Saor: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=69041

Shall amend the hyphens

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Thanks and well done.

That is a good piece and the quote

This scheme is simply an attempt to make huge private profits by creating an ugly industrial development on lands in the Perthshire Highlands that are renowned as a wild and beautiful place for people and nature.'

sums it up very well. We need to stop these being profitable to private landowners.

Interestingly I can't find anything on the "developers" Eventus. Are they a front company or even registered in the UK?

Large private sporting estates are bad for the land, bad for the environment, bad for jobs, bad for communities and only good for the owners

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I think this page http://www.tab-windfarm.org/project_benefits.html illsustrates why the current tactic is a total failure.

Clearly they have thought about the SG's "good practice and guidance" and worked out it out before any of us or the government hears about it.

This is Dutch company, putting almost nothing back into the community with a base in London. The message is clear - put the minimum into the community, take the maximum out, base jobs as far away as possible and avoid all scrutiny apart from the necessary.

These are the people we should be naming, shaming and trying to remove power from asap:

Owner Adrianus JM van Well, Maria FB van as-van Well and Cornelius SC van Well
Owner Address c/o Adrianus van Well
Diepenbrocklaan 51
3055 WB
rotterdam
THE NETHERLANDS

The extractive relationship with the Highlands continues.

In reply to Saor Alba:

"Large private sporting estates are bad for the land, bad for the environment, bad for jobs, bad for communities and only good for the owners."

A bit of a sweeping statement! Surely not all of them?

Also, perhaps we should be using the term 'Wind Factory Sites' instead of the more benign 'Wind Farms'.

In reply to Ann65:

Can you name one that provides sustainable jobs (I don't mean few over a massive area), hasn't seen a drop in population and is good for the environment.

Ledgowan anyone? - They will have a windfarm proposal soon - what then? Remain silent on the people behind it, again?

In reply to Saor Alba:

You're answering with a question - so I will assume you do mean all of them.

In reply to Ann65:
No I don't mean all of them or any one in particular. Happy to look at the particulars if you like. I am talking in a general sense.

In reply to Ann65:




The don't manufacture wind, so they're not factories. MCofS used the 'Wind Factory' term on a number of occasions and came under a certain amount of derision for it.

In reply to Toby S:

Fair point - though Wind Farms don't grow wind either.

Interesting comment from Ramblers Scotland in the media today referring to Rights of Way etc saying, "...the present Scottish Government already has all the powers it needs to protect the public interest...it simply will not use them, preferring to touch the political forelock to the rich and powerful..."

In reply to Toby S:


On the subject of windfarms and the Scottish Government, there is a Welsh idiom which seems appropriate: 'Malu awyr'.
Its literal meaning is to grind or mince air.
It is generally used when people are engaged in idle talk or pointless waffle.
'Malu cachu'is the more earthy version, cachu being Sh1t, as in
'Mae Wee Eck yn malu cachu'.

In reply to llechwedd:

Yes that is very true, from your point of view but the mountaineering establishment has to understand that the majority of the population don't view things that way through lack of information or a different value judgement.

I know quite a few folk who fully support the wind farms going ahead.

In reply to llechwedd:

'The Keep Rannoch Wild Campaign has now launched a Wild and Wonderful Rannoch photographic competition to highlight the beauty of this internationally celebrated landscape'

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/news.asp?s=2&id=MCS-N11478&nc=Landscape