UKC

China makes lots of outdoor kit of high quality and climbing hardware is now made for some companies there, no problem with that as it is tested etc. What I am curious about is the amount of climbing gear on E-bai made and sold in china that looks OK-ish and seems to have CE mark visible. Is this surplus gear after most has been shipped to other countries (for an order by certain design companies and thus good stuff) or total crap?

I would never order such equipment, but is "made in china" becoming the "made in Japan" or even the "made in Switzerland", and When will we start to trust the quality and safety level of such equipment and order it like we would from north wales?

In reply to wiwwim:

Maybe when they close down more of the factories that, as far as I can see, fairly openly produce counterfeits of most things.

In reply to wiwwim:
Some CE marking means China Export, not easy to see which CE is which.

https://www.google.co.uk/images?q=ce+china+export

In reply to wiwwim:
Within the past week and a bit I heard about substandard dentistry equipment being bought online which is made in China. I'll probably trust it when I hear that things have changed in China, though I'd but Chinese made climbing gear 'through' a company with a solid reputation.

In reply to wiwwim:
You have no problem because it is 'tested'. Define tested?

In reply to Shone:

no idea myself, but I assume well known european gear companies would test batches of Chinese made carabiners etc. the same as if they were made in this country (for them).

In reply to elsewhere:



Pretty certain that's an urban myth that's been repeated so many times even serious publications fall for it. Why would you bother knocking out counterfeit gear then Mark it so it's easily identified? IIRC someone made a joke in a presentation to illustrate how many European consumer goods were imported from China, and the 'china export' myth was born.

In reply to wiwwim:
It feels hard to not sound anti-China or unreasonably suspicious of China on this sort of thread, but corruption is still a problem there I gather, with certificates still being obtainable via a bribe, meaning the quality of things like aluminium can't be assured.

In reply to Timmd:

I would back that up. Having bought plenty of engineered, prototyping parts from China, you simply cannot guarantee that it will turn up as specifed. It will look just right, but does it matter if something is made from 2000 series aluminium rather than 6000 or 7000? Does it heck. I shan't bore you with the details of why it matters.

In reply to mike kann:
I find things like that interesting actually, but if you can't be bothered that's cool. I imagine it could take a while.

In reply to wiwwim:

If something went wrong, a manufacturing error, would you be able to sue the manufacturer?

With DMM/BD/WC/etc and even the newer EU brands, yes you probably could, and that keeps them on their toes when it comes to quality control / recalls.

With the Chinese 'CE' marked goods you probably can't actually trace the manufacturer, and probably wouldn't have any legal recourse even if you did.

In reply to wiwwim:
In my previous sport (fencing) there was originally (i.e. when I started about 15 years ago) only a few European manufacturers in the UK, France, Germany, Hungary etc. Some time later budget Chinese-made kit started to appear, mostly sold by a few new companies that clearly didn't do anything other than resell the kit that the Chinese factories could make for them. Older UK or European companies had obviously invested a lot more time in research and development - the only UK manufacturer of fencing gear can be compared to DMM for example.

This Chinese-make included fencing jackets and other protective clothing, which is CE rated for penetration resistance to one of two standards (350N or 800N). The problem is that the CE rating is a self-certification system, and even where samples are being tested there is no easy way to guarantee that what has been tested is the same as what ends up in the jackets.

The end result was that a significant fraction of the kit sold by the new companies was clearly not up to the basic standard. The main UK manufacturer bought some of the Chinese kit and had it tested. Some of it failed - miserably. Some of the kit is now banned from UK competition (with, as far as I know, no refunds from the budget companies). Trading Standards were informed but failed to do anything despite the obvious safety concerns; I think (since trading standards are a local thing) it was just a bit beyond them and they didn't want to get involved. There were even a few more older and more reputable companies who got caught out with Chinese kit that turned out to not be up to standard - which can be compared to Wild Country and its recall...

At the end of the day you normally get what you pay for.

In reply to wiwwim:

Can't speak for climbing equipment, but where I live a lot of goods sold are made in China and in my experience are of appalling quality, and in some cases lethal. I avoid anything I know to have been manufactured in China.

In reply to wiwwim:

Some of the gear will be ok. Some won't. Way too variable in terms of quality. Having lived in China for a while and dealt with a few people there working in manufacturing I personally wouldn't take the chance with climbing gear. All the contacts I had in China who climbed were having western brand stuff shipped from Europe, when you could sometimes buy gear on Tao bao (the Chinese Amazon equivalent) for a quarter of the price. That told me a lot about how much even the Chinese trust the stuff made on the cheap out there. Go for look around at DMM or similar in Europe and you'll probably find that it's worth paying the extra for peace of mind I.e. your gear has been thoroughly tested by people who actually know what they are doing and care about climbing/climbers.

In reply to 1234None:

Other than DMM can you name the european companies which produce in Europe? There aren't that many you know... doesn't mean they are poor quality, just saying that companies mostly don't advertise what they make themselves and what they buy in and from where. It's only when they make it themselves and want to make a big deal of it that they say. For example, Petzl crabs and harness are made in the far east, much of BD is, Salewa is, Wild Country mostly is just to mention a few...

In reply to mike kann:

Doesn't DMM actually produce a lot of kit for other makes? I know they make stuff for wild county, mamut and petzl. Grivel make kit in Europe and the go outdoors own brand north ridge is grivel when it comes to climbing gear.

Jim Titt had a few things to say about far eastern steel for bolt making a while back and it wasn't reassuring reading.

In reply to Ridge:
Oops!

In reply to wiwwim:

I'd add my experience of Chinese manufactured goods to the others above. A company I used to work for imported a lot of cast and fabricated components from China (we designed them, they produced them) and the quality was absolutely appalling. We had to inspect ever individual component to make sure it was correctly dimensioned, and often it was obvious that despite claiming otherwise they were using complete different casting methods than specified. Company bosses kept using them even though we rejected 40-50% of the parts as they were less than 1/2 the price of locally produced parts, so still cheaper.

Similarly to other posters we found substituted materials, and flatly made up fake certs of conformity, and in a couple of instances faked pressure ratings. We did eventually convince management to source critical components in the UK/Europe (i.e. anything pressure rated or structurally critical) through fear of lawsuits if parts failed. Amazing the power of a paper trail sometimes.....

Personally, due to the above experience, I would only be keen to buy Chinese produced goods through a company I new / trusted to have a very rigorous QA inspection and testing regime.

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to gethin_allen:

I believe Grivel make their axes etc in Italy, not sure about the carabiners or soft goods though. I think CAMP also make their hardgoods as do Climbing Technology who produce for others. And yes DMM produce for others. As I say though - can you tell me which is which? Because within the same brand there are usually different manufacturing strategies...

In reply to wiwwim:

The CE mark on Chinese products doesn't always mean what CE does in Europe.

The Chinese developed their own CE logo to look similar, but not the same as the European CE mark. It means something completely different.

Like all things, some products made in china are superb, others not so.

For the time being I'm happy with welsh made DMM stuff, the price difference isn't worth risking my life, even if the risks are remote.

In reply to elsewhere:



Sorry, didn't read the thread properly.

In reply to wiwwim:

Don't BD make their cams in China? I think the days where low quality junk was made in China have been over for a while, most of the supercheap labor is farmed out to vietnam/cambodia/laos/phillipines these days.

In reply to Removed User:


Really? I'm not convinced, and I think companies like BD probably do their own extensive QC testing on stuff they have manufactured in China. The stuff that fails might not reach us as consumers but I'd wager quite a bit of stuff doesn't meet standards. I'd be interested to know how these companies rate the Chinese manufactured stuff and whether they fail more stuff in QC now than they used to when it was manufactured closer to home.

That means buying stuff on eBay that hasn't gone through a western company's stringent QC could be risky....and I wouldn't take that risk on any gear I intended to trust to save my legs or my life in the event of a fall.

It's anecdotal, I know, but when I was in China even the Chinese recognised that the bulk of stuff manufactured there still wasn't of the highest quality. There was, however, a feeling that the best stuff was exported and the shittier stuff stayed in China for domestic consumption.

In reply to mike kann:

I saw a short film a while back were Grivel were showing their testing facility in italy IIRC, and the test every carabiner to 50% load I think so all should be well even if they are being made elsewhere. Also, I imagine any company buying overseas would test their products and stop using any manufacturer who's products were regularly failing.

In reply to wiwwim:

To a degree, it doesn't matter where gear is made, it's the trail of responsibility that will dictate how trustworthy it should be. If budget is an issue, I'd suggest looking at DMM seconds (available through the likes of V12), or budget equipment from Decathlon before considering buying off ebay. In both these instances, you know strict testing procedures have been followed, reputations are on the line and insurance policies are in place should the worse happen.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Yep. They proof load all carabiners. That doesn't proclude alternative materials being used etc. and to be fair, not everybody does this. All reputable companies should, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they do.

In reply to wiwwim:

Does anyone have any documented evidence of any directly imported Chinese climbing gear failing, and not oh my bother-in-law met a bloke in a pub that knew someone that drives taxis that picked up a fare........stories, or extrapolations from various other industries

In reply to wiwwim:

China is a rather large country, so not everything is bad. A lot comes stuff from china from all kinds of quality levels.

There are certainly manufactures in China which makes high quality products, which can compete with european/american brands. However they won't be cheap. Maybe slightly cheaper, but not that much. These brands generally invest heavily in there brands and ruining there brand names is not really good for business.

The problem is that most people buy things in China to save a lot of money. Is it worth it to import things, which after import duties and shipping only costs 10% less and waranty issues require you to send them all the way back to china? Probably not. You get, what you pay for it right?

I would say French (simond), Czech (singing rock, Ocun) and Italian (kong, climbing technology, CAMP) brands are a great source for less expensive, but well made climbing equipment.

In reply to elsewhere:

This is an urban myth isn't it?

The CE mark on a Chinese product means exactly the same as it does on any other product, it's a declaration from the manufacturer that they're aware of all the relevant EU legislation and the product complies. Whether or not that declaration is honest and sincere is another question entirely.

That some CE marks are themselves not quite within spec is just another bit of dodgy quality control.

In reply to wiwwim:

I'm going to try very hard not to sound racist, but... (not a great start to a post eh?)
I happily save lots of money buying really cheap stuff from China but only things which I can afford to simply throw away when they fail. I would never, ever buy safety equipment direct from China.

I work in the electronics industry dealing with both electronic and mechanical components, many of them from China so I have first hand experience of what goes on and I've come to the conclusion it's simply a cultural difference. In appears that the concept of a "specification" has very different meanings in Europe and China, where it means a list of claims which can't be easily refuted. Once you've heard a supplier ask "so what safety/conformity markings would you like on it?" you'd never trust what's marked on Chinese climbing kit again.

Please also bear in mind that wherever an item has come from a CE mark is not a standards mark it's a self-certification. The old BSI or DIN markings of long ago carried with them an element of design proving and of testing by outside agencies but a CE mark is simply the manufacturer making a statement about the product. That statement is not tested in advance and is only relevant if something goes wrong, it is simply part of the who-goes-to-jail process. For a European manufacturer that could be a senior manager, for a Chinese outfit... well I don't suppose you could even track them down.

Like Andrew Mcloed, I was involved in fencing when the Chinese kit manufacture came to a head and studied the results of the testing done on the clothing (as an armourer and the parent of a fencer I had a keen interest in the safety aspects of the sport). The penetration resistance of the cloth and even more so the burst strength of seams would have been a joke but for the fact that peoples lives were at risk.

As I said at the start, from first hand experiences I wouldn't directly buy Chinese made safety kit.

In reply to csambrook:


This is not quite correct, virtually no climbing equipment is self-certified. For nearly all climbing equipment the manufacturer must establish a technical file which covers design, production control, quality control etc and then this file is examined by an external body and the product independantly tested to the relevant European standard, they must also show their ongoing quality control system and only after all these are satisfactory then are they allowed to apply the CE mark. The certifying body (the test lab) and the relevant technical standard are identified on the instructions with the product and/or on the product itself.
The manufacturer is irrelevant, it is the person putting the product on sale in Europe who is ultimately responsible so in the case of Chinese manufacture the importer is the person who must apply the mark and who can be held responsible. For imported goods the responsibility for control of the CE mark is HM Customs (for the UK) and the control of goods inside the EU is the responsibilty of the local trading standards office (for the UK).
Some items of climbing equipment do not and may not carry the CE mark as they are not PPE or category 0.

In reply to jimtitt:


How does it work for stuff bought directly via ebay etc., where the 'importer' is the customer. Presumably the presence or absence of any 'CE' mark on any stuff purchased like that would be meaningless? Have I got that right?

In reply to Rob Parsons:

No idea I´m afraid, you´d have to ask a lawyer where the point of sale was to know whether you became the importer or the seller was the importer. It´s nothing really to do with the manufacturer, it´s the person who brings the product on the market in Europe who is responsible.

In reply to cap'nChino:

http://cemarking.net/chinese-export/

Some background there to CE as China Export, and misues of the mark. Sounds reasonable.

I have read before that the CE mark on climbing kit doesn't really say much. Much stronger is the "3 sigma" mark, which says that at least 99.7% of products are at least as strong as they should be.

More details here, http://dmmclimbing.com/about/quality/

In reply to ablackett:

Didn't WildCountry move their Manufacturing to the UK, after the nuts recall?
The new replacement nuts are British.

In reply to SiGregory:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=599164&v=1#x7893236
The carabiners for Proton quickdraws are made in China.

In reply to SiGregory:

Yes, this is true. The old nuts were manufactured in Italy from 2010 but production was moved back to the UK for the replacements in the recall.

In reply to wiwwim:

In my experience the problem with China is the spread in quality. Sometimes it's great, the next week it's rubbish. I wouldn't want anything my life depended on to come from China.
sjm

In reply to ablackett:

It's just not as simple as that at all. CE mark is based on the UIAA standards, which define a minimum strength for gear. It ensures that at the very least it should exceed a certain level. Above and beyond that it's left to individual manufacturers what they rate the gear at. Ratings are based on what the manufacturer thinks they can realistically achieve on a regular basis and will be based on testing before the product is released onto the market, on pre production prototypes. They then have to put that into practice, and this means maintaining and regulating their material supply, their manufacture methodology, ensuring that tooling is replaced when required, that heat treatment procedures are correctly applied, that finishes are maintained at a high standard. And then on top of that you need in a statistical analysis quality control system, to rigorously apply the techniques, after setting the rating at the correct level to ensure that having made sure that all of the above have been adhered to, that you don't cock it up by testing inconsistently, or letting things slide a little. Individual proof loading is IMO one of the only ways you can ensure complete consistency and ensures a minimum strength on all items, but it's expensive and not applied by all manufacturers. 3 sigma is in my view a way of making your system appear more rigorous than it really is - you can cut out all that costly proofloading, with some poor pup standing there loading a testing rig with gear all day long. But then everybody wants cheaper gear right?

In reply to mike kann:

Just incase people are curious about the stuff which triggered the initial post ,

Ebai seller is "gold-bucket",(climbing)

and the gear is brand-less as far as I can tell (although it all looks familiar)

Price-wise it is about the same to DMM so I can't fathom why anyone would buy it.

Wiwwim

In reply to 1234None:

The difference between BD making stuff in China and many other companies making stuff in China is that BD owns their factory their and controls/tests everything the same as they do in their factories in the US. Most of the other gear that is made in China or Taiwan is contracted out to Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturers. I trust chinese made BD gear the same as I would US-made BD gear.

In reply to mike kann:

The problem is nearly every item of climbing equipment is either made unusable or has to be destroyed after proof testing as it is generally designed for single use at those forces. The standards don´t give an option for proof testing since they generally require test to failure for certification. Partial proof loading only tells you the item held the proof force whatever it was and nothing about it´s ability to withstand the full rated force. It´s a useful method to identify if a process was carried out though, on nut for example it can tell you the cable was swaged but not how well.
3 Sigma only tells you the statistical chance of failure in the population you tested, to be confident about the rest of the product you have to rely on good design, accurate process control and rigorous quality control. These are requirements for CE approval, proof testing and 3 Sigma aren´t and rightly so.

In reply to wiwwim:

I Bought a Black Diamond cam in Nepal in 1994, when i got back to the UK after a few days cragging it went rusty, and I took a closer look at it, and it didn't actually say Black Diamond, it read Block Diamond, it went in the bin a few days later. Looking back I wish I'd kept it, it may have been worth something by now.

edit typo.

In reply to jimtitt:

Well exactly - I was talking about partial proof loading - should have said that... it does guarantee though that you will exceed a basic level of strength. I men lets face it, if you are proof loading to 50% of a 14kn rating, how often do you see forces beyond this in real world falls? At least it's gotten to a point at which you're unlikely to break the gear... totally realise that proofloading to 100% is unfeasible. I just think 3 sigma is all a bit smoke and mirrors and it's been jumped on by the various marketing departments and misused... it should be a QC engineers thing, not a marketeers.

In reply to wiwwim:

My walking boots (well known British brand name) were made in China and were frankly not up to the job.

Both the originals and the replacements they gave me fell to bits (literally -see my previous threads on them) within a few months. I was not impressed and am very suspicious of anything made in China now.

In reply to mike kann:

I have a good friend who's a marketeer for a hi quality automotive parts manufacturer, 6 sigma, Kanban, you name it, these are terms that give marketeers a proper hard on, when all the decent QC guys want to do is make sure the thing is in spec. But as it is marketeers run the world, so I wouldn't expect the propaganda is going to go away soon.

In reply to Trangia:


Quite a few high quality bits of clothing are I gather, though, and things like rucksacks. I think not all Chinese made gear is of the same quality, whatever the quality level one is thinking of.

In reply to Trangia:

Were they low cost or expensive? in the end it is down to us to make a quality judgement, no matter all the CE markings, branding etc.

In reply to John Simpson:



the same thing happened to me only mine was a genuine Black Diamond. I don't buy there gear now because it seems poor quality compared to other manufactures.

In reply to andy.smythe:

I'm just about to buy a new rack and I was thinking of some Black Diamond cams, but that's probably sealed the deal, I'll stick with DMM. Cheers.

In reply to mike kann:


That is introducing a two-tier system, since the application of the CE mark is already a guarantee that the product achieves the required standard then what is the point? A good amount of climbing equipment can´t anyway be meaningfully proofed so the situation would become even more complicated. What would a proof test of a climbing rope look like, it has to hold one fall?

In reply to andy.smythe:

You should go to Black Diamond and question this. You will probably find it is a sophisticated copy.Theey could probably prove it is not one of theirs by a serial no or testing it.

In reply to jimtitt:

I'm not suggesting that you'd proofload ropes, that's daft. Proofloading most hardware to a basic level is not exactly ridiculous though, especially when there are safety critical joints, such as crimps on wire or silver soldered joints, which if they're wrong will just end up with somebody injured or dead. I'm not proposing that it's a cure all, it's not - I've made quite clear above that it has to be part and parcel of an integrated approach, but it's quite substantially more useful than a statistical approach which until it falls down and you have a problem you can merrily carry on using without the first idea that there's a problem. If theres a really fundamental structral issue, proofloading is quite likely to catch it.

In reply to mike kann:

Well yes, that´s why I put " It´s a useful method to identify if a process was carried out though, on nut for example it can tell you the cable was swaged but not how well." but once you start seeing companies advertising karabiners that are proof loaded to 12kN or whatever then your back to snake-oil selling. Either it makes the EN or it doesn´t, telling me it gets halfway doesn´t fill me with confidence.

In reply to mike kann:


I presume by this that you mean many people's understanding of 3-sigma is vague, and not the test itself? The statistics behind 3-sigma are rigorous and unambiguous; I suspect, though, that some people at least take it to mean 'utterly bombproof' rather than '3 in 1000 fail'.

I'm interested that you (as an engineer) don't find 3-sigma as rigorous a test as proof loading to 50%? I would have though that showing the failure rate is low would be OK (assuming the testing to mantain the 3-s rating was ongoing). Is it the failure mode of the 0.3% that worries you?

In reply to wiwwim:

I have a Kailas screwgate I acquired in Yang Shuo. It's light and handles well but I have to confess that, although generally more pro-globalisation than many, when relying on it as the sole focal point of my belay thoughts have crossed my mind.

I've never been sure if it's irrational belay paranoia, which I am occasionally prone to, or a genuine concern...

-ross

In reply to jimtitt:

Fair enough, although I'm not saying that it should be used as a marketing tool to sell snake oil, all I'm saying is that its a lot more useful than sticking your finger in the air and say we "we think that x% of our kit exceeds y kN". It says 100% of the kit gets to z kN. At least it's an extra check which can be used to increase your certainty of exceeding y, not just a vague guess based on a company out in China (whose primary focus is on making as much money as possible) adhering to your manufacturing procedures. Yes the maths of 3 sigma is hard and fast, it's the application that's not unless you are pretty rigorous of that application, and I can't say that I'm particularly confident that the chinese provide strong enough documentation, quality control and transparancy to their manufacturing methods to be 100% sure that my stats are going to mean very much. Maybe that's just me though. As my granddad used to say, stats are like bikini's. Whilst they display exciting figures, they hide essential detail...

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

No, its that you are only testing a small percentage of your product. Making climbing kit is essentially a manual process and any manual process will be affected by human error/boredom/feeling a bit peeky that day. You have to bear in mind that some poor f*cker out in china is sat there making piece after piece of this stuff, doesn't understand what they are doing, doesn't actually care what they're doing and they are going to make mistakes. Basing your stats purely on them not making mistakes is daft as far as I can work out. If you are in control of your manufacturing great - you can stick your beak over someones shoulder and make sure they weren't out until 2 am the night before getting smashed, but how can you do that when you are a company buying from a 3rd party on the far side of the world and then say to your customers you're 99.7% confident that your kit will exceed expectations? Your control stopped when you handed your job description to somebody else.

In reply to csambrook:


The responsibility for compliance and CE marking where goods have been manufactured outside the EU lies with the first European importer/re-seller. The reality is there's next to no enforcement and the CE mark, particularly on cheap anonymous electronic goods is just about worthless at present. The problem is not unique to China.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

That's precisely the problem. Especially when the supplier of the cheap anonymous goods is happy to write whatever document you'd like to see.
You're correct, it's not unique to China but it's prevalent in cheap goods from there.

As an aside which is vaguely related to outdoors/climbing I recently read a report of a detailed investigation into all 13 different Lithium-Polymer batteries of a particular type available on ebay (there are lots of sellers but they all resolve back to 13 sources), the tenuous link to outdoors is that these are the sort of batteries used with Cree LED headlamps. ALL of the 13 batteries failed to meet their claimed spec, some spectacularly so.
The investigator then went on to dismantle the batteries and found that a fair proportion contained recycled cells from laptop battery packs, complete with their original markings and solder tags. Ever wondered where your old laptop battery pack goes to die?
The conclusion was that it is pretty much impossible to buy a quality battery of that type. Even stuff which appears to be branded is likely a fake.

In reply to neilh:

No it definitely one of theirs. Got it from a well know and reputable uk retailer. Bd seemed to think it was normal. Ive seen rusting on a lot of their cams on various peoples racks, usually around the rivets/axles. I really dont rate them. They want top money for gear which is made as cheaply as possible.

In reply to andy.smythe:

As much as you'd like to think so, it's not quite as simple as that. They use a high tensile steel for their axles which is not stainless as twin axles are subject to much higher forces than a single axle cam and it is not as easy to get hold of high tensile stainless'. DMM and Wild Country do (for their single axle units) they use 17/4 PH stainless but that grade isn't as easy to get hold of, is harder to machine, and is more expensive. High tensile cro-mo's do rust but are fairly robust when it comes to corrosion. It is generally a surface patina and is not unsafe at all. Just discarding it as a money saving exercise is just not correct I'm afraid. All design decisions come with a set of compromises...

In reply to mike kann:


Are you saying DMM use non-stainless steel for their double axle units or they use stainless for everything?

In reply to andrewmcleod:

They use stainless axles and endplates.

In reply to andrewmcleod:



Interestingly I was involved in a request from a building management company to vet the qualifications of those running a charity abseil. I received an MIA and two SPA endorsement pages to check and couldn't verify any of them - no record the individuals had ever undertaken those awards. They weren't allowed to run the abseil. Local trading standards reaction was 'if they've been stopped then there is no issue for us to pursue'.

In reply to mike kann:

And wire and terminations I should add. BD use Stainless wire and terminations and end plates but High tensile axles.

In reply to mike kann:

Im not going to pretend I know what that mean but safe or not safe I like my climbing gear rust free. My dragons haven't rusted but my camalot did. Ill stick with dmm

In reply to andy.smythe:

I think you have to look at this in a wider context. If there were fundamental issues over BD gear ( ie issues of rust causing safety concerns), forums like this would be awash with stories.

In reply to andy.smythe:

It's very simple actually. BD use a steel which rusts lightly, on its surface unless it is exposed to extended corrosive environments for long periods of time. That steel is stronger than all stainless grades, Stainless is not generally a strong material bar a few grades which are hard to machine, difficult to obtain and expensive. So as a designer you make the trade between corrosion resistance, strength and obtainability. BD went for strength and obtainability. DMM went for strength and corrosion resistance. American climbers climb in deserts and dry environments mostly. British climbers climb on sea cliffs. You view that rust = bad is not reflective of reality.Mild steel + rust - bad. Chome Moly steels plus rust = not really that bad.