UKC

Has anyone had a play with the MSR Windboiler stove yet? I've been considering getting a Jetboil Sol for this winter, but then the latest Alpkit stove came out. I've decided against that, but then saw the MSR stove as another alternative.

If anyone could offer some useful tips comparing/suggesting between the Jetboil Sol and MSR Windboiler for alpine bivvies, cold weather (0 to -15C), then that would be much appreciated. I've got a multifuel stove for 'basecamp' use so this isn't intended for that. Cooking things like couscous in the Sol/Sumo was perfectly ok. Is there any reason that this wouldn't work in the MSR stove? Any reliability issues? Are there limitations on what gas bottles are compatible with the MSR stove? Any guidance would be much appreciated! Unfortunately where I am at the moment I can't get hold of either stove for a side-by-side comparison.

Many thanks,
Rich

In reply to NottsRich:

Did you see Hikin' Jim's (preliminary) overview? It was just posted a few days ago, though he doesn't compare it with the Jetboil. I am sure he would answer any questions that you might have as he seems like a helpful chap. Don't think he covers alpine use in his stove tests, however.

http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.co.uk/

In reply to NottsRich:

Rich,

My name is "Hikin' Jim". I saw some traffic coming to my stove blog and got curious. I have a response to your questions if you don't mind a non-climber posting on a climbing forum.

You should be able to cook anything in the MSR Windboiler that you have been cooking in a Jetboil Sol or Sumo. The Sol is quite quirky when you try to adjust the flame in the lower range. The Windboiler is much improved in terms of heat control.

I have had no reliability issues with the Windboiler, but keep in mind that the stoves have just barely come out. I've had mine for less than a week. Do note that the Windboiler does not come with a piezoelectric ignition.

In terms of canisters, the Windboiler should work with any major brand of canister that has a standard 7/16 UNEF threaded connector (the same connector as on the Jetboil). Only a 110g class canister will fit inside the pot. Larger sized canisters have to be carried outside the pot.

In terms of cold weather operation, the performance will be about the same as a Jetboil. I normally don't recommend an upright canister stove below about -7C, but of course you can extend that range a bit if you:
a) Start with a warm canister (typically by sleeping with it or keeping it inside one's coat) and
b) Keep the canister warm by insulating it from the ground and by keeping the canister in warmish (NOT hot) water to maintain temperature above 0C.

Always, if you think you'll be out in weather below 10C, use a canister with an isobutane/propane mix. Avoid n-butane (i.e. "regular" butane) for cold weather use. Starting with a full canister gives one the best cold weather performance. The propane inside the canister is what gives you cold weather performance. Unfortunately the propane burns off at a faster rate as the canister empties. The canister pressure drops as the proportion that is propane decreases. Your worst cold weather performance will occur as the canister approaches empty.

Jetboil is phasing the Sol out. Apparently the far cheaper but heavier Zip has killed the Sol. If you want a Sol, it's best to buy it soon I think. The Windboiler is a bit heavier than the Sol . The Sol is 312 g and the Windboiler is 457 g on my scale at home. Of course the Windboiler has a 1000 ml pot whereas the Sol has an 800 ml pot.

I hope this is of assistance,

HJ

In reply to NottsRich:

See! What a swell guy.

There's a new Primus 'Winter Gas' cannister that might be out now.

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2014/09/12/primus-winter-gas-gains-top-awa...

In reply to Dorq:

Hey Hiking Jim My YouTube hero!

I'll be swapping my Jetboil Sol for the Windboiler when its available
Sol has been brilliant but a little flawed regards handle and the iffy lid otherwise its great. Windboiler looks more efficient and a little safer to use good handle/proper lid and performs well in light winds. So I'll be swapping over very soon

In reply to Dorq:

Thanks for that link regarding Primus' new Winter Gas. I did a bit of research and found that the mix would be 25% propane, 70% isobutane, and 5% n-butane which should be a pretty good mix for winter use. I'm not sure just how much that paper insert will really add to canister pressure, although it will obviously help some. If Primus' numbers are to be believed, then it will be really something.

“Primus Winter Gas improves the performance of LP gas cartridges at temperatures down to –22C. After 60 minutes of cooking, a Winter Gas cartridge is approximately 9 per cent more powerful than one without Vapour Mesh. After 120 minutes of use it delivers about 15 per cent more power.”

I've seen a mix of 30% propane and 70% available I believe in Australia. Alas, such mixes are not available where I live.

HJ

In reply to stevieweesaxs107:

Oh, goodness. Don't remind me of my rather amateurish videos. I hope the content makes up for the rather poor production values.

I'm quite pleased with the Windboiler's lid. I'm not sure why Jetboil has historically had so many problems designing a proper lid. The worst was the Jetboil GCS. Jetboil recommended that one use the lid upside down. That's a pretty good confirmation that the lid had serious problems.

The Windboiler's pot cozy and handle assembly allows one to truly use the handle as, well, a handle. I can't say the same for the Jetboil Sol. Most people take a pair of scissors to the Jetboil Sol's "handle". The downside to the Windboiler's pot cozy and handle assembly is that it's a bit heavy: 49 g on my scale. The Jetboil Sol's is half that. Of course the Sol has a smaller pot, but still the Windboiler's cozy assembly is a bit on the heavy side.

I will adjust the numbers on my preliminary report to break out the pot and cozy separately as that may be helpful to some to get a better sense of the weight. For the particularly weight conscious, one could always leave the cozy assembly at home.

HJ

Wow, what an excellent response! Thank you all for your contributions.

The point Jim made about the simmering ability of the MSR vs the Sol is interesting, and I guess allows for more cooking options in the pot without burning things. That sounds like it could be useful.

What about the Jetboil Joule in comparison to the Windboiler? The inverted canister should obviously mean much better cold weather performance - has anyone found that to be the case, or is the difference quite insignificant?

Lastly, a comparison of lighting the Windboiler and the Joule in a confined space (bivvy tent/snow cave etc) - are both fairly safe to light? The Windboiler doesn't look like it has an exposed flame, and assuming you don't leak excess gas out then it shouldn't flare up. How does the Joule compare? It must have some sort of pre-heating coil for the liquid fuel, so is there a risk of a flare up before the stove gets up to temperature?

And what about hanging the stoves to cook? It looks like both can be made to hang with a DIY job quite easily.

Thanks again for such informative responses!

In reply to NottsRich:

I've done some more testing on the Windboiler. The flame control is good. The heat can be turned down quite a bit, but I'm going to have to backtrack a bit on the simmering issue. While one can turn it down, it doesn't quite simmer, at least not if you use a strict definition of simmer. For a true simmer, you want it to just barely be bubbling. I couldn't get it that low and hold it. The flame kept dying.

I've got a further update on my blog describing things in more detail:
http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-msr-windboiler-trail-re...

I've also put up a video on YouTube. As usual, it's hopelessly amateurish in terms of video production values, but it will illustrate exactly what happens to the Windboiler's flame when set on low:
youtube.com/watch?v=Y_XdqFS6DGg&

As for hanging, I gave it a go this morning on my patio. Hardly a "big wall" environment, but it should give you an idea of whether it is possible. I used the hanging kit that I have from the Reactor; this is not the hanging kit intended for the Windboiler:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-92BbrtJRezc/VGDkN2ZrH3I/AAAAAAAA5aw/pdOX...

I apologize for just a raw link, but I haven't had time yet to post it on my blog. I'll put up more photos and such as time permits.

A friend of mine has loaned me a Joule. I'll do some comparisons when time permits, but just based on the fact that the Windboiler is an upright canister stove and the Joule is an inverted canister stove, one should be able to operate the Joule at temperatures that are up to 10 degrees Celsius below what a Windboiler can be operated at. I usually think of about -7C as the lower limit of temperatures at which an upright canister can be effectively operated (unless you take steps to warm the canister). A Joule should work down to about -17C. Subtract approximately one more degree Celsius for every 300 m in elevation. Now, of course the closer you get to the lower limit, the less gas pressure you'll generally have. Don't assume that a stove will work equally well at +17C as it will at -17C simply because both are within it's operating range. Colder means less pressure even if you're still within the operating limits of a particular stove. And a fresh canister will work better than one that is 3/4 empty.

I'll have more to say about the Joule, but a full comparison will take quite some time. It's a fairly time consuming undertaking if the data is to be worth anything. The one thing that I will say is that the Joule is a rather large stove. It weighs about a kilogram, which is fairly heavy even for an integrated canister stove.

My first interest is a comparison of the most recent Jetboil and the Windboiler. Those are both upright canister stoves in the same general class. The Joule is really a different class of stove.

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

I've now done a short post on using the hanging kit. Have a look if you like: http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/msr-windboiler-hanging-kit....

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

Hello Jim; welcome to UKC!

In reply to captain paranoia:

Ah! Good to "see" a familiar person.

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

Just a thought....can you light these stoves with one of the Swedish fire steels, if the piezo fails?

In reply to dek:

Hmm. That's a good question. I have just been using a regular butane lighter.

However, note and note well: the Windboiler does NOT have a piezoelectric ignition. MSR considered one but rejected it as too unreliable to be worthwhile. That said, I think piezoelectric ignitions have improved greatly over the last several years. The Soto Windmaster stove which is available in the US and Japan (I apologize, but I don't know if it is available in the UK) is the state of the art. The Soto Windmaster has the best designed, most reliable piezoelectric ignition that I have seen on any stove.

As for the Windboiler and a firesteel, I'll give it a go. It's an upright canister stove. There's no reason it should fail to ignite, but the burner head is quite wide, so the fuel-air ratio may not be sufficient for ignition. However, I bet that if the stove is on high, the fire steel will work. Might lose a few hairs on the back of your hand though.

HJ

In reply to NottsRich:

Hi - can anyone confirm UK release date please? I've seen November and January dates... just wondering which is correct - in time for Crimble?
PS - enjoying the reviews - many thanks

I used mine for the first time at the weekend. Slower to boil than the reactor, but lighter and with a good cozy and handle arrangement. The wee plastic stand will likely get lost or broken pretty quick. No Piezo, but IME they break really easily, lights fine with a firesteel. Fierce boiling once it got going, control down to a low rolling boil was a bit tricky, it went out twice trying to achieve it.

Official press release says it's out on general release now.

In reply to dek:


I tried it this morning, and it was dead simple. The burner is surrounded by a steel rim about 1.5 cm high. This tends to concentrate the gas, which is exactly what you want for used with a firesteel. I tried a Light-My-Fire firesteel and a Primus firesteel. Both lit the stove immediately, on the first strike. This may be the easiest gas stove there is to light with a firesteel.

HJ

In reply to coolhand:


Actually, The Windboiler is just slightly heavier than the 1.0 liter sized Reactor (417 g for the 1.0 liter Reactor vs. 432 g for the Windboiler). But not much (15 g). I'd say they were in the same weight class.

However, there have been a lot of reports of "overweight" Windboilers, some in excess of 50 g overweight. Coolhand, if you have a chance, would you mind weighing yours? I'd be very curious to see what it weighs, all components included. Mine came in at 25 g overweight.


>Fierce boiling once it got going, control down to a low rolling boil was a bit tricky, it went out twice trying to achieve it.

OK, good. That is exactly my experience as well. You're the third person I've talked to with that experience. The burner just goes out if you try to get it too low. I've added a video to my blog post. You can watch the burner struggle and then go out.
http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-msr-windboiler-trail-re...

Now is this a "problem?" Well, that all depends. Most people who purchase an integrated canister stove want speed and convenience. They're not buying it to do fancy gourmet cooking. If however one were to want a stove that can perform -- and hold -- a low simmer, the Windboiler is just not that stove. I'm trying hard to be fair to MSR here because I know that they'll be in direct competition with the new Jetboil Mini-Mo, but I think the Mini-Mo has them beat here. Again, though, that may not matter inasmuch as those who purchase an integrated canister stove aren't looking for that feature. Windproofness may matter far more to them.

HJ

In reply to dek:

I tried one more little experiment. I tried using a handheld piezoelectric lighter to start the Windboiler. No go.

A firesteel works very easily, but a piezo doesn't work at all.

HJ

In reply to NottsRich:
Hi all
where in UK is this stove available now, anyone?

EMS saying 1st Jan?
cheers
BB

In reply to hikin_jim:

Yes, I tried a handheld piezo igniter on a MSR Reactor - it didn't work either.
Firesteel and standard lighters are ok.

In reply to Bluebird:

Not very useful, but MEC are selling it now for the equivalent of about £75, but they won't ship it outside Canada unfortunately.

With their new Windboiler, MSR has definitely done a great job on the "human factors" (better handle, better lid, a cup that's actually useful, more slots so the pot attaches more easily, etc.), but if the Windboiler isn't significantly better than a Jetboil at handling wind, then it's really just a prettied up Jetboil.

So, how well does a Windboiler handle wind? I decided to find out.

I did several head to head tests with a Jetboil Sol in light to moderate winds. I could see that the Windboiler remained fairly constant while the Jetboil would lose ground (boil time would lengthen) as the winds increased, but I didn't really have the sense that I fully understood the capabilities of the Windboiler. Time to put it to a real test I thought.

So I headed to the windiest spot I could think of in Southern California – the San Gorgonio Pass area near Banning, CA, USA, home to many a wind turbine.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VDKCAfqPjKc/VHJFyMUnm6I/AAAAAAAA53Q/B9Lk...

I picked a spot for testing at the mouth of a canyon where I thought winds would come whistling through. I was not disappointed.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FAiXsJ19StQ/VHI5FNORqsI/AAAAAAAA5v0/8Hix...

I have put up two videos on my blog that I think show the difference in the way a Jetboil behaves vs. a Windboiler in significant winds. Have a look if you like.
MSR Windboiler – Wind Testing: http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/msr-windboiler-wind-testing...

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

Thanks, another useful post there HJ! I'm sold on the Windboiler, I just need somewhere in the UK to buy one now! Do you have any recommendations of shops in the US that sell the Windboiler and that will mail to the UK?

In reply to NottsRich:

I saw and advert here on UKClimbing for the Windboiler at I believe Cotswold outdoor. I'd check their website to confirm this, but it's so painfully slow -- and it has dead links. They won't make much in the way of sales without significant upgrades to their site I'm afraid.

I don't know who will ship to the UK from the US. Most retailers won't because as a condition of being able to sell MSR products they've had to agree not to ship them overseas. I've heard of buying services that will do it for a price, but I don't know of any personally. If you've got friends or relatives in the US or someone coming here on holiday, that's a good way to procure one.

HJ

In reply to NottsRich:

Here's a link to the Advert I saw: http://ads.ukclimbing.com/click.php?id=7099&uri=46

I can't get it to load, but that may be because I'm in the US.

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

Yup Cotswold got em
Picking mine up instore Friday

In reply to stevieweesaxs107:
I picked up 2 in Red spare one going if anyone interested?

In reply to stevieweesaxs107:

How much posted?


HJ, thanks for the headsup!

In reply to NottsRich:

You're welcome.

Looks like the Cotswold Outdoor site is back up. Here's the link (below). No affiliation.
http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/msr-windboiler-stove-system-97110138

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:
question@hikin_jim and …
1
Does anyone know if the Windboiler coffee maker is better then the one for the Reactor?
Comparatively the Reactor coffee thing is quite crap, I think, to the Jetboil (Sol) coffee plunger. I see it is different so it is better.

2
A more serious question, how vulnerable is the Windboiler. My Reactor had once a nervous brake down (car camping) and it stopped working complete. No field (or home) repair possible. Note: MSR replaced it for free. But if it had been on a bivouac … on longer trips we take since then a Reactor and a MSR whisperlite universal (canister gas and white gas) for the lower camps. Listen well the Reactor is a super boiler. Statistically seen it was probably a random thing that went wrong.
The Jetboil has in fact so to speak a simple tap, like the PocketRocket, Super fly. I think the tap system is less sensitive for complications then a closed system.
More precise my question is, is the Windboiler also a closed system like the Reactor or more open like the Jetboil.

You have a great site, Jim. Thanks.

In reply to NottsRich:

I am thinking about geting MSR Windboiler, but it's bloody expensive!

Do you guys think it's worth it against Jetboil Zip/Flash for a single hiker? I do not brew much, but mainly because I am too impatient to wait for a hot drink in bad conditions and would rather move faster than sit and wait for some tea.

In reply to RR:
1. Interesting timing to your question: I actually put up another post on my blog about the coffee press last night. It worked well for me, but I haven't really used the Jetboil press or the Reactor press. What kind of problems were you experiencing with the Reactor's press?

Here's my review of the Windboiler's coffee press:
http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/msr-windboiler-coffee-press...

2. The Windboiler does have an overheating shut off just like the Reactor BUT it is field resettable. The instructions for the Windboiler explain how to do it. I've looked for an online copy of the instructions but to no avail. Maybe I'll take a photograph or scan them if I get time.

Basically, one takes a narrow object (a wire type tent peg, the leg of the canister stand, perhaps a narrow pen, a nail, etc.) and inserts the object into the air port on the burner column. One then depresses the jet with the narrow object. Sounds simple enough. Note: I haven't tried deliberately overheating my Windboiler, so I am relying solely on the instructions here.
EDIT: I suppose a plastic object would be best so as not to damage the jet.

HJ

In reply to PPP:
I suppose the two most salient questions to ask yourself would be:
1. Do I need the wind proofness of the Windboiler?
and
2. Do I need the fuel efficiency of the Windboiler?

If you don't ever encounter high winds in exposed areas, then perhaps you don't need the Windboiler. While the Windboiler is less expensive than a Reactor, it's not quite cheap, now is it?

If you don't take trips where you need to maximize the number of boils you get per canister, then perhaps you don't need the Windboiler. For example, if you only go out on weekends, a single 110g canister should do you fine with either a Jetboil or a Windboiler. A 110g canister gives you a 55g/day fuel allocation. You shouldn't need but half of that for a soloist unless you're an amazing gourmet cook in which case, please invite me on your next outing. Seriously though, I typically use about 20g/day with my twice a day boils of about 500 ml (breakfast) and about 750 ml (supper). I'm fairly conservative in my use, but with an integrated canister stove, I can't see using more than 55g/day. I mean that's a LOT of fuel.

If on the other hand you take longer trips, then yes the Windboiler might be a good choice.

In the appendices, I've got a list of weights and prices comparing the various Jetboil and MSR integrated canister stoves. I've also got a discussion of when fuel efficiency matters. See: http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/msr-windboiler-wind-testing...

HJ
EDIT: Correcting a spelling mistake.

In reply to hikin_jim:

Thanks Jim!

Apart from the price, is there a reason I should not buy a Windboiler? Weight does not seem to be an issue, volume is okay for me, hanging kit is available. I trust MSR enough, so that's not an issue either.

In reply to PPP
I've a spare one going in Red I'll do for £99 posted
Brand new will include receipt.

In reply to PPP:

I'm not quite finished with my review process yet, but I'm 90% done. If the weight, price, and volume are acceptable, I can think of no reason not to buy the stove.

I think the instructions could be improved. Quite a bit actually.

I would like to see them change the plunger on the coffee press such that it doesn't roll away so easily. There are some humorous printing errors on the coffee press packaging, but that's not material.

I got a burner that was behaving oddly on the first go round. It worked fine on high, but it would die on low flame. I contacted MSR, and they replaced the burner.

The cozy on some doesn't quite lock to the pot firmly. A minor inconvenience. MSR says that they will replace the cozy for free if you request it.

As with all burners with a cavity under the burner surface, you could get "underburn" in certain circumstances. Underburn occurs when there is burning underneath the surface of the burner. This typically occurs when one immediately restarts a burner without allowing a bit of a pause. As I say it's a known phenomenon with any burner of this general type. Simply turn off the burner, wait a moment or two, and re-light. I'll post a video at some point on my blog. Here's a direct link to my YouTube account for now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=menVZP0DWU8&list=UU7D4JggVedSTykSG76SS8...

Overall, I'm very impressed with the stove, particularly in windy conditions. It's name is well earned, I think.

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

Hi Jim,

Oh my, I am sorry, I am not a native speaker. So I meant the filter and used the wrong word plunger, sorry about that. On the pictures on your site it is clear that the filter is more stable then the one of the Reactor. Said different: less coffee mud. Besides that the rubber of the Reactor filter, the Reactor rubber ring is sort of weakening over time. Not that important, but for car camping I prefer the Jetboil or the one of the Windboiler....

If, if you can show (tell), how to reset the Windboiler would be fantastic.
Is this also applicable for the Reactor? MSR service is great, but not much of help when your are high on the mountain.
Your exchange of your knowledge/comment is very much appreciated.

In reply to RR:

I am leaving for a hike with my daugher at 0530 tomorrow morning, so I won't try to put anything together now. It's very tight down there under the burner. I'm not sure how well I can show what needs to be done. You just need to depress the jet to reset the burner.

HJ

In reply to hikin_jim:

Thanks, ordered from Cotswold with a discount (hence, I paid 93.50 pounds). I had Alpkit stove which I sold the same week I bought it as it was far from superior.

Update on subjects brought up previously: I have written up what I feel the known and potential problems are with the new Windboiler. Have a look if you like:
http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/msr-windboiler-issues-known...

In the above post on my blog, I've outlined the steps necessary to reset the burner if the Thermal Trip safety mechanism shuts down the burner. A video or at least photos would probably be helpful, but it's awfully hard to shoot around the windscreen AND show what's going on in there. If you purchase the stove, the instructions do have diagrams.

HJ

I've completed my review of the MSR Windboiler.

It's a nice stove albeit a tad on the heavy side. Bombproof in terms of operating in wind. I could operate it on its lowest setting in high winds, and it never blew out. In fact, it was as though it wasn't even windy. Really nice design and attention to detail. It's quite possible that MSR may have caught Jetboil napping inasmuch as there are a lot of nagging little issues with the Jetboil that have never been corrected.

Have a look if you like:
http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2014/11/review-new-msr-windboiler.h...

In reply to NottsRich:

What a sexy thing is MSR Windboiler! I can't really compare with Jetboil as I never had one but tried in stores only. I have bought Alpkit BruKit and re-sold to someone else as it wasn't as nice as I expected. Flimsy mesh bag, no tripod included (though they advertised that there is one!), slow boiling time... No, thanks.

Windboiler feels way much smaller and better built. It took some time to sort few things out and how not to break the system (the part with lots of little holes is made of very soft aluminium and it's quite hard to put the cosy back - now I know how to!). I poured 0.5l of water, turned it on, waited few moments and decided to see how long does it take to boil it. 90 seconds on max flame and it's boiling! I am happy with that. Feels totally windproof, though the igniting needs some practice (probably very risky with gloves on unless a long lighter is carried, probably IMCO lighter would be the best?).
The included cup accommodates the lid as well and I am having hot chocolate. Well done, MSR. I'll probably get the hanging kit some time later as well, but I don't find it necessary right now.

In reply to PPP:

Actually, I believe the windscreen is made out of thin stainless steel. My boil times were a little longer than yours, but my water may be colder. Either way, it's a pretty fast boiler.

My whole goal in taking the stove out to San Gorgonio Pass where all the wind turbines are was to prove MSR wrong (if indeed they were). What I expected was that it would do well on high in wind but suffer on low. What I got was a stove that I could turn down as low as I pleased and have no problems even in very gusty winds. Yes, I was impressed.

HJ