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Does anyone ever listen to the advice dished out by shop assistants in outdoor / gear shops when purchasing new kit?
I’ve learned my lesson over the years and now try to make sure I (almost) always know exactly what I’m looking for.
I tend to buy more on-line or in a shop I specifically avoid answering the questions of the assistant – the usual “So, what kind of activity will you be doing?”, “is this for a special trip?”.
The assistants seem to fall into two categories – they are overconfident about their knowledge and give bum advice, or the opposite, they shrug their shoulders and just ask “how does that feel on?”.
Am I being unfair on a group of hard working people who are expected to know about a range of equipment, or do these shops need to up their game as far as staffing, training and knowledge go?
Post edited at 17:08
In reply to ogreville:
All of the above really. I've had excellent advice in some shops (Needlesports take a bow!) and nonsense in others. Luckily I'm experienced enoug to be able to spot the bullsh1tters by now. Recently went to buy a wall rope and a was offerred a 60m. 'No. A wall rope,' says I. 'Yes. This will be lomg enough for any wall round here,' replies Young Lochinvar, which to be fair is true but not exactly good advice.
All of the above really. I've had excellent advice in some shops (Needlesports take a bow!) and nonsense in others. Luckily I'm experienced enoug to be able to spot the bullsh1tters by now. Recently went to buy a wall rope and a was offerred a 60m. 'No. A wall rope,' says I. 'Yes. This will be lomg enough for any wall round here,' replies Young Lochinvar, which to be fair is true but not exactly good advice.
In reply to ogreville:
My advice would be to go to a shop on a weekday thus almost eliminating the chance of getting some chump with no idea about anything. Also, avoid most chain stores especially discount stores that sell everything.
That said, a friend of mine went to a well known climbing shop in North Wales for some climbing shoes (their first pair) and they were mis sold some incredibly small down turned bouldering shoes because 'that's how they should fit'.
My advice would be to go to a shop on a weekday thus almost eliminating the chance of getting some chump with no idea about anything. Also, avoid most chain stores especially discount stores that sell everything.
That said, a friend of mine went to a well known climbing shop in North Wales for some climbing shoes (their first pair) and they were mis sold some incredibly small down turned bouldering shoes because 'that's how they should fit'.
1
In reply to ogreville:
I have had great service in my local independent shop in Shrewsbury High Sports. They have knowledgeable and experienced staff and give 20% discount to BMC members.
I had good advice and service from the Rock On shop at Red Point Birmingham ,when buying my second pair of climbing shoes.
The service and Knowledge in Go Outdoors has been questionable...
I have had great service in my local independent shop in Shrewsbury High Sports. They have knowledgeable and experienced staff and give 20% discount to BMC members.
I had good advice and service from the Rock On shop at Red Point Birmingham ,when buying my second pair of climbing shoes.
The service and Knowledge in Go Outdoors has been questionable...
In reply to ogreville:
I spent some time in a reputable outdoor shop after I graduated. The training which we received was top notch - reps from Gore-tex, Berghaus, North Face, Sherpa etc were giving out constant training. Some of the training even included some top level climbers, however a large amount of the staff still knew shit about some of the stuff. The main reason was that they were almost never going out - they were never climbing, or never doing any significant walking. I reckon about half of the staff were generally people who had worked elsewhere in retail and were not really outdoorsy. About 30% had decent knowledge and but only about 20% had that good mixture of experience and knowledge. Of course, these percentages were very scientifically averaged and calculated.
I spent some time in a reputable outdoor shop after I graduated. The training which we received was top notch - reps from Gore-tex, Berghaus, North Face, Sherpa etc were giving out constant training. Some of the training even included some top level climbers, however a large amount of the staff still knew shit about some of the stuff. The main reason was that they were almost never going out - they were never climbing, or never doing any significant walking. I reckon about half of the staff were generally people who had worked elsewhere in retail and were not really outdoorsy. About 30% had decent knowledge and but only about 20% had that good mixture of experience and knowledge. Of course, these percentages were very scientifically averaged and calculated.
In reply to ogreville:
One of the most annoying things about working in an outdoor shop was having no control in hiring. When I was in one of the big 3's flagships I was shocked by the frequent hiring of people with 0% outdoor experience, some had barely even been walking. These staff could then be thrown into footwear with maybe just 15-20 minutes training by another member of the sales team.
That being said, the amount off terrible advice I've often heard managers spew out is incredible. I was in another big store and overheard the store manager telling a newbie that the climbing shoes he was trying on were supposed to be uncomfortable. I asked him where the protein bars were, and he told me that the human body couldn't digest 20g of protein and pushed me to get an energy bar instead. Having had worked in nutrition for 6+ years I wasn't impressed by his unsolicited advice.
The thing is, outdoor gear is an extremely personal thing and as there are so many controversial subjects you'll never agree with the salesperson on everything. A good salesperson should explain all the different options, their different merits, and let the customer decide.
One of the most annoying things about working in an outdoor shop was having no control in hiring. When I was in one of the big 3's flagships I was shocked by the frequent hiring of people with 0% outdoor experience, some had barely even been walking. These staff could then be thrown into footwear with maybe just 15-20 minutes training by another member of the sales team.
That being said, the amount off terrible advice I've often heard managers spew out is incredible. I was in another big store and overheard the store manager telling a newbie that the climbing shoes he was trying on were supposed to be uncomfortable. I asked him where the protein bars were, and he told me that the human body couldn't digest 20g of protein and pushed me to get an energy bar instead. Having had worked in nutrition for 6+ years I wasn't impressed by his unsolicited advice.
The thing is, outdoor gear is an extremely personal thing and as there are so many controversial subjects you'll never agree with the salesperson on everything. A good salesperson should explain all the different options, their different merits, and let the customer decide.
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In reply to ogreville:
I delivered staff training on product knowledge at a well known outdoor store in Keswick for a while. I would say that, at the time, my staff were exceptionally knowledgable on the products we sold.
As a management team we put no pressure on our staff to sell incorrect or unnecessary products as so many people suspect of outdoor shop staff. We ensured that our staff had the right product knowledge and customer service skills to find the customer the correct product for their needs (hence the question: “So, what kind of activity will you be doing?”). If we didn't have the right product, we sure knew in town who did and would send the customer there.
I was incredibly proud of our staff team at the time. I am very polite when talking to shop assistants in outdoor shops now, they could quite easily be far more experienced and knowledgable than me. I don't have to take their advice but I always listen.
I delivered staff training on product knowledge at a well known outdoor store in Keswick for a while. I would say that, at the time, my staff were exceptionally knowledgable on the products we sold.
As a management team we put no pressure on our staff to sell incorrect or unnecessary products as so many people suspect of outdoor shop staff. We ensured that our staff had the right product knowledge and customer service skills to find the customer the correct product for their needs (hence the question: “So, what kind of activity will you be doing?”). If we didn't have the right product, we sure knew in town who did and would send the customer there.
I was incredibly proud of our staff team at the time. I am very polite when talking to shop assistants in outdoor shops now, they could quite easily be far more experienced and knowledgable than me. I don't have to take their advice but I always listen.
Post edited at 20:47
1
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Maybe this is just the right of passage that every new climber has to go through - buying eye-wateringly tight shoes because they are told by everyone that that's how they are supposed to feel, suffering for a month, then sticking them on ebay.
Can or should we expect the shop assistant to be able to assess the suitability of shoe fit and type for people newer to the sport, or is it simply something that is too personal and difficult to gauge? I would now not expect someone in a shop to take that responsibility for me; it would not be fair on them, especially for a £100 plus pair of shoes that I would have worn for a month so could therefore not return, but for newer climbers who don't know there own fit and feel, can anything be done to prevent money been flushed down the toilet?
> That said, a friend of mine went to a well known climbing shop in North Wales for some climbing shoes (their first pair) and they were mis sold some incredibly small down turned bouldering shoes because 'that's how they should fit'.
Maybe this is just the right of passage that every new climber has to go through - buying eye-wateringly tight shoes because they are told by everyone that that's how they are supposed to feel, suffering for a month, then sticking them on ebay.
Can or should we expect the shop assistant to be able to assess the suitability of shoe fit and type for people newer to the sport, or is it simply something that is too personal and difficult to gauge? I would now not expect someone in a shop to take that responsibility for me; it would not be fair on them, especially for a £100 plus pair of shoes that I would have worn for a month so could therefore not return, but for newer climbers who don't know there own fit and feel, can anything be done to prevent money been flushed down the toilet?
In reply to ogreville:
As I mentioned in a previous version of this thread, I only realised after the fact that the person advising me about trad gear purchases the last time I was in V12 in Llanberis was Emma Twyford. Can't offhand think of anybody likely to be more competent or better informed.
As I mentioned in a previous version of this thread, I only realised after the fact that the person advising me about trad gear purchases the last time I was in V12 in Llanberis was Emma Twyford. Can't offhand think of anybody likely to be more competent or better informed.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Well, I remember when shopping in Sheffield and be advised and served by Don Morrison, or Jim Reading at Tanky's, and more recently Andy Kirkpatrick at Outside.
> As I mentioned in a previous version of this thread, I only realised after the fact that the person advising me about trad gear purchases the last time I was in V12 in Llanberis was Emma Twyford. Can't offhand think of anybody likely to be more competent or better informed.
Well, I remember when shopping in Sheffield and be advised and served by Don Morrison, or Jim Reading at Tanky's, and more recently Andy Kirkpatrick at Outside.
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In reply to ogreville:
No its not that difficult. My example was a case of "i climb V9 so I know what I'm talking about"
No its not that difficult. My example was a case of "i climb V9 so I know what I'm talking about"
In reply to ogreville:
Well as a shop assistant who is just about to walk out the door on ten years of retail work for some very big outdoor retailers I will give you my experiences for what its worth.
When I started 10 years ago I did a bit of ckimbing, had done a bit of walking and camping but was no expert on any. Despite a keen interest in the activities I was no gear geek so didnt really know too much about what i was expected to sell.
Quickly I was schooled in the "art" of customer service and had all the sales training that went along with it.
I soon realised that all I had to really do was talk openly to customers( or other human beings) and share what experience, knowledge I may have had on that particular subject at the time. It seemed to work for me. I was never trying to sell products to people i was just trying to solve their problems which inadvertantly made them buy stuff. Perhaps i wasnt the best "sales" person in the shop as i would regularly tell customers to shop elsewhere or actually tell them that what they thought they wanted was a waste of time. I could at least leave at the end of the day knowing that i had never lied to someone and "made" them buy something.
I was lucky enough to be sent up to Glenmore lodge on a staff training trip in Febuary to try winter climbing only three months after i started working in retail.
My first days in winter on the hill where with Andy Kirkpatric, Ian Parnell and Andy Cave, truly something that inspired to stick at all sorts of climbing/mountaineering. I did also learn about different pieces of gear and technologies but the important thing i learnt was to listen to everyone elses opinion and then to try and adapt it to my needs or budget which seemed to be the critical deciding factor.
Over the years I've met customers who have become friends and others who frankly should have been bludgeoned to death with their own credit cards.
As with all walks of life there are idiots in every job/proffession and unfortunately retail being at the lower
paid end of the spectrum does seem to get its fair share. However it does get the people who do it cos they enjoy it, they like the atmosphere, they like the banter and the cheap kit and ultimately they enjoy trying to help other peple get out and enjoy the outdoors as much as they do.
Perhaps its all over romanticed a little by myself but the only reason i stayed doing it for so long was because the guys i worked with were great the atmosphere and the tons of free shit i got over the years whilst on "training" trips..
As of late with my particulat employer and with many others im sure the whole industry has started to go down hill as instead of trying to push customer service and advice the staff are just constantly trying to meet targets and fulfill petty mostly trivial tasks that a middle manager has created to try and make himself look like his role is vital to the operation when all the shop floor staff know that the ship would run perfectly fine if he was just thrown overboard.
Nowadays i spend most of my time constantly changing signage boards and repricing for the latest weekly offer or writing reports on why we didnt sell any down jackets on monday!!
sorry just rambling on.....................
shop online if you're a f*cking expert! go and talk to someone if you're a human being.
f*ck retail im out!
Well as a shop assistant who is just about to walk out the door on ten years of retail work for some very big outdoor retailers I will give you my experiences for what its worth.
When I started 10 years ago I did a bit of ckimbing, had done a bit of walking and camping but was no expert on any. Despite a keen interest in the activities I was no gear geek so didnt really know too much about what i was expected to sell.
Quickly I was schooled in the "art" of customer service and had all the sales training that went along with it.
I soon realised that all I had to really do was talk openly to customers( or other human beings) and share what experience, knowledge I may have had on that particular subject at the time. It seemed to work for me. I was never trying to sell products to people i was just trying to solve their problems which inadvertantly made them buy stuff. Perhaps i wasnt the best "sales" person in the shop as i would regularly tell customers to shop elsewhere or actually tell them that what they thought they wanted was a waste of time. I could at least leave at the end of the day knowing that i had never lied to someone and "made" them buy something.
I was lucky enough to be sent up to Glenmore lodge on a staff training trip in Febuary to try winter climbing only three months after i started working in retail.
My first days in winter on the hill where with Andy Kirkpatric, Ian Parnell and Andy Cave, truly something that inspired to stick at all sorts of climbing/mountaineering. I did also learn about different pieces of gear and technologies but the important thing i learnt was to listen to everyone elses opinion and then to try and adapt it to my needs or budget which seemed to be the critical deciding factor.
Over the years I've met customers who have become friends and others who frankly should have been bludgeoned to death with their own credit cards.
As with all walks of life there are idiots in every job/proffession and unfortunately retail being at the lower
paid end of the spectrum does seem to get its fair share. However it does get the people who do it cos they enjoy it, they like the atmosphere, they like the banter and the cheap kit and ultimately they enjoy trying to help other peple get out and enjoy the outdoors as much as they do.
Perhaps its all over romanticed a little by myself but the only reason i stayed doing it for so long was because the guys i worked with were great the atmosphere and the tons of free shit i got over the years whilst on "training" trips..
As of late with my particulat employer and with many others im sure the whole industry has started to go down hill as instead of trying to push customer service and advice the staff are just constantly trying to meet targets and fulfill petty mostly trivial tasks that a middle manager has created to try and make himself look like his role is vital to the operation when all the shop floor staff know that the ship would run perfectly fine if he was just thrown overboard.
Nowadays i spend most of my time constantly changing signage boards and repricing for the latest weekly offer or writing reports on why we didnt sell any down jackets on monday!!
sorry just rambling on.....................
shop online if you're a f*cking expert! go and talk to someone if you're a human being.
f*ck retail im out!
3
In reply to ogreville:
Definitely hit or miss. Definite hits from: the store manager (I think) at the Tiso's at Ratho (can't remember her name), the Irish chap at nevisport in Aviemore. The guys in cairngorm mountain sports in aviemore always seem to be very helpful.
Definitely hit or miss. Definite hits from: the store manager (I think) at the Tiso's at Ratho (can't remember her name), the Irish chap at nevisport in Aviemore. The guys in cairngorm mountain sports in aviemore always seem to be very helpful.
Highly recommend Trekitts in Hereford or online. First question they ask is not 'what can I help you with today?' but 'what are you up to this weekend?'
The staff and owners get out there themselves but are always interested in what you do. Means they're better placed to recommend stuff.
Post edited at 09:31
In reply to Stash:
I've only been in outdoor retail 18months I don't know how you put up with it for 10years!
I've only been in outdoor retail 18months I don't know how you put up with it for 10years!
In reply to Stash:
You poor bastard...
> My first days in winter on the hill where with Andy Kirkpatric, Ian Parnell and Andy Cave
You poor bastard...
1
In reply to Blackmud:
Could not agree more about the Irish man at Nevisport. knowledgeable and nice bloke as well.
Could not agree more about the Irish man at Nevisport. knowledgeable and nice bloke as well.
In reply to ogreville:
At a nameless shop in Betws Y Coed an over enthusiastic salesperson recently told me amongst other things he regularly climbs up to E3 in a pair of chunky looking sandals I was considering !
At a nameless shop in Betws Y Coed an over enthusiastic salesperson recently told me amongst other things he regularly climbs up to E3 in a pair of chunky looking sandals I was considering !
In reply to ogreville:
Some are bad, but not all. The people at Hitch n Hike in Bamford have always given me good advice, including talking me into buying stuff that was cheaper than what I went into the shop for.
Some are bad, but not all. The people at Hitch n Hike in Bamford have always given me good advice, including talking me into buying stuff that was cheaper than what I went into the shop for.
In reply to ogreville:
In the chains, the boot people ("I'm a boot specialist") tend to know a little bit about boots; had some useful advice from them in Ellis Brigham, and when my wife was trying on some new B0s and mentioned she went walking in Scotland, the girl serving her immediately asked "In winter?" which I think was because she knew they would be inappropriate for crampons.
I've also got a local climbing shop only staffed by climbers, who are very good at helping. Apart from these two instances I've found the advice to be pretty poor. Particularly from the chain "Rucksack specialists".
In the chains, the boot people ("I'm a boot specialist") tend to know a little bit about boots; had some useful advice from them in Ellis Brigham, and when my wife was trying on some new B0s and mentioned she went walking in Scotland, the girl serving her immediately asked "In winter?" which I think was because she knew they would be inappropriate for crampons.
I've also got a local climbing shop only staffed by climbers, who are very good at helping. Apart from these two instances I've found the advice to be pretty poor. Particularly from the chain "Rucksack specialists".
Surely everybody on UKC knows everything about everything and the gears shop assistants are only there to put it in a bag and be subject to online snobbery.
1
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