UKC

Does anybody know the fully extended (blown) length of a 'standard' Yeats Screamer? Like if I had to attach the ends to two alpine butterfly loops in a rope, how far apart should the loops be?

Looking at the construction, it looks like it's supposed to double in length from the original twenty-odd cm. Is this right?

In reply to Rapsling:

Don't have a Yates screamer at hand to check. Can I ask why you're trying to find out though? What are you planning?

In reply to NottsRich:

Building an anchor where the lead line itself is looped though each gear placement and equalised to a big bulky overhand knot as a powerpoint. There's no obvious point to put a Screamer to protect this anchor, except to tie a couple of alpine butterfly loops above the powerpoint, pull them together, and clip the ends of the screamer to them. The distance between the loops needs to be a little more than the length of a fully extended Screamer after it has blown, but the manual doesn't say how long it is in this state.

From the look of the Screamer, it appears that it's supposed to double in length as it unfolds. I was just wondering if this is correct?

In reply to Rapsling:

Putting aside the OTT nature of the setup, a deployed screamer has a breaking strength of 25kn or thereabouts, so there's no need to have a rope bridging it.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

That's true, and if the anchor is equalised with a cordelette or sling, then the screamer might as well be attached to the powerpoint biner at one end, and the lead line at the other. However, if the rope itself is being used to equalise the anchor, and there isn't actually a carabiner at the powerpoint, I wasn't really sure where to attach the Screamer other than to have it attached to the rope at both ends above the anchor.

Must say I'm very reassured to hear the setup being described as OTT - better that that the opposite I guess!

Thanks for your help

Update: the good people at Yates customer services have this to say:

"The deployed length of a standard screamer is approximately 20 ¾” (52.7cm). Please let us know if you need anything else."

So I guess if you want to attached it to a rope that may be shock-loaded (OTT or not), you have to tie two small Alpine Butterfly Loops around 60cm apart, then pull them together, and clip both to an end of the Screamer.

In reply to Rapsling:

The principle of what you describe makes sense. What situation would you imagine needing to use this?

In reply to Rapsling:

In order to attach the screamer 'to the rope at both ends above the anchor' you still need to use 2 carabiners. Simplest way is build your belay as normal and clip the screamer to the main anchor, the other side of the screamer (the crab on it) becoming your new main anchor.

In reply to NottsRich:

I'm curious to hear the answer to this too. I'm guessing an anchor for some kind of lead solo self-belay setup.

It's clearly - as already mentioned - OTT for a top rope anchor, and I would guess not relevant for any kind of non-dynamic high load situation (rescue rigging etc)

In reply to AlanLittle:

Yes, I am talking about anchors for solo lead climbing.

It is sometimes preferable to equalise the anchor with the lead line itself, as it is dynamic, and a fall on the first gear placement would have an even higher fall factor if the equalisation is done with a static line (accessory cord/sling), so we try to loop the lead line through every gear placement in the anchor and back to the powerpoint if possible. The powerpoint itself is just an overhand knot tied in all the bights coming back to it. It seems that a shock absorber, if used, should go above this.

In reply to Rapsling:

The word "dynamic" starts to lose it´s usual meaning once you start talking about 4 or 6 strands of 10mm+ rope used as a cordalette
Just use 7/8mm cord and tie an 8 or 9 not an overhand.

In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks very much for your input, much appreciated

In reply to Mr Lopez:


for lead soloing you try not to put all your eggs in one basket. It is normal to go over the top with everything, and double up when you can. So, the rope is normally tied directly to at least one piece. Then clipped via a screamer to the powerpoint. Otherwise if either of the carabiners on the screamer snaps you would die. Or you might have just forgotten to do one up. Or just got confused and clipped the screamer incorrectly to the shelf etc. It is as much to do with knowing we all get it wrong sometimes, as to do with strength.

In reply to David Coley:


Agreed (stretching ankle under the PC desk, cast off for two weeks now , broken ankle, could easily have been a lot
worse, more knot checking required, should know better, but it least it proves I'm human)

In reply to David Coley:

He hadn't said it was for solo-leading when i put that down. From his use of office-speak words like 'masterpoint' i assumed it was somebody being OTT figuring out how to rig a belay rather than someone attempting lead soloing after reading a book or doing AK's course.

P.s. No offence intended Rapsling. Tongue in cheek and all that

In reply to Mr Lopez:

I don't believe I did use that term, but if I'm getting the vocabulary wrong I'm certainly open to corrections. I should really have given more context in the original post; my apologies for the mix-up.

I have my answer about the Screamer now, that's all I can ask for.

In reply to Rick Graham:

I'm very sorry to hear that - get well soon. I broke my foot taking a ground fall in the summer, and had to hop down a Welsh mountain with every bit of climbing gear I owned strapped to my back, so I can certainly sympathise. All the best Rick, and a speedy recovery.

In reply to Rapsling:

No mate, you didn't get it wrong. It's just me and an irrational grating of a load of 'new' terms that is being passed down by the instructing hordes like "powerpoint", "bottom-roping", etc.

It'll be "Blue sky belaying" and "motivational positive spotting" before we know it

In reply to Mr Lopez:

"Bottom roping" is obviously a useless and silly term, I'm sure we can all agree on that.

"Powerpoint" seems to me me to actually be a useful name for an important part of an American style over-engineered belay. Not a style I have ever practiced myself, but I wouldn't necessarily denigrate it just through my own ignorance.

And I previously had no idea it was normal to use a screamer as part of a lead solo setup, so I have learned something new from this thread. Not that I have any intention of ever using the information.

In reply to Rick Graham:



Hope it meads ASAP. What happened? Ta

In reply to AlanLittle:

In reply to AlanLittle:

Otherwise known as your main anchor


Because it isn't. It's only for a very specific set of circumstances like a high likelihood of taking a fall in the first few meters that it may be considered, but the jury is still out as to the pros outweighing the cons as compared with other systems

In reply to Rapsling:


I don't.


Surely that would depend entirely on what you were trying to achieve (and I can't think what that would be!).

jk

In reply to Rapsling:

The rope 'protects the anchor'. The rope you used to equalise it and the knots can all absorb energy and will naturally stretch/move to achieve good equalisation. Additionally (in fact primarily) The length of rope out to the climber and the belay plate slippage both provide the rest of the energy absorption.

The last thing you want when trying to hold a factor two fall is to be ripped off your perch as the screamer extends, you'll not be focused on catching your partner if it feels like you're suddenly falling to your death, probably upside down.

Without wishing to sound condescending I'd suggest you stick with tried and tested set-ups, it's good to ask questions but in reality the answer to those questions when it comes to safe efficient ropework is almost always use the rope and keep it simple.

Edit: I see you're talking about lead solo. Personally I'd still KISS, just build a solid belay and get on with it but if you were to add the screamer it'd make most sense to put it between you and the 'powerpoint'.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Skim reading, are you?

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Ay

In reply to jkarran:

Yep, build a standard belay to a central strongpoint (megaknot), clip the screamer to that and belay off the other end of the screamer. Back it up as per the original request to remove single points of failure.

In reply to Mr Lopez:



That´s about it really, it´s better in my experience to keep the belay as what it is, a belay and not try to integate dynamic elements into it, then transfer to the dynamic part of the system, it´s neat,simple and works. I´m not a fan of screamers so prefer a counterbalance system or if that isn´t realistic thenI use a mechanical rope brake so I can decide on the impact force and the fall distance. The thought of the clusterf#uck you´d get using the lead rope as a cordalette and doing the same again at the next belay and then swapping it all over is enough to put me off straight away and the dynamic benefits minimal, building a reliable belay to take both downward and upward forces would take half the rope! Easier to make the cordalette from 8mm dynamic rope instead.

In reply to David Coley:


Still feels a bit brewed up, but it is mending. Just able to walk upstairs on my toes and climb in both rock shoes on the wall on vertical panels or steeper atm. But really still a bit one legged. Thanks for asking.

To the OP, ropes are designed for a true factor 2 fall and resulting impact force but most additional factors in play reduce this.

My experience is problems with too much stretch rather than too harsh in any system set up.

Taking the liberty of summarising the advice in previous posts:

KISS, a screamer is probably OTT, and trust the rope to do its job.