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Hi there, I have come seeking some advice from people that may have more experience to advise and steer me in the right direction. Apologies if this post is in the wrong place and for the waffle!
I have a decentish collection of clothing that covers most conditions for the activities that I participate in as well as for general hanging about with the kids outdoors. I tend to be on the cold side when I am inactive, but heat quickly when I am active....if this helps....
Current kit consists of Rab eVent hardshell; ME down jacket; Rab Ventus windshirt; Synthetic baselayer; ME Softshell.
I was just about to purchase either a Rab Xenon or Arcteryx Atom LT hoody for a less bulky warm layer that can fit under my shell for cold and damp/wet conditions. However, I am almost certain this is going to be too warm if I am active when I want to stay dry unless it is silly cold. When I say active I mean scrambling, walking & hiking. For running I tend to go with a base layer and windshirt and carry something warm if I know I am going to be stopping. I am not too worried about rain when I run!
I think what I am after is a jacket or pull on layer that will be fine by itself in milder conditions when I am less active, but also function in colder conditions when I am active (hiking and scrambling) and for both scenarios it should breathe if I do need to reach for a shell if it begins to rain above a light drizzle. I don't want to cook!
My alternative is a jacket or pull-on that breathes well that I can wear without having to reach for my shell unless rain is pretty heavy and this would mean I do not need the Xenon/Atom . Ideally it would have a hood and thumb loops, but this is not a necessity.
I had in mind a number of tops, in the breathable mid layer, from the fairly warm ME Switch which uses a mix of hardfleece and Polartech Alpha to gear like the Rab Power stretch hoody, Arcteryx Konseal and Mammut Eiswand with these being more hard fleece like. For the “one jacket does all” I looked at the Norrona Lofoten Alpha and Rab Strata Alpha or Flex.
I would appreciate any help from those more experienced than me and I thought climbers probably suffer with having to deal with changing conditions and activity levels more.
So, given what I have said is it a mid layer lightweight hard face fleece or a different insulated jacket (Polartec Alpha) that is more breathable or indeed something else?
Many Thanks
Rob
I have a decentish collection of clothing that covers most conditions for the activities that I participate in as well as for general hanging about with the kids outdoors. I tend to be on the cold side when I am inactive, but heat quickly when I am active....if this helps....
Current kit consists of Rab eVent hardshell; ME down jacket; Rab Ventus windshirt; Synthetic baselayer; ME Softshell.
I was just about to purchase either a Rab Xenon or Arcteryx Atom LT hoody for a less bulky warm layer that can fit under my shell for cold and damp/wet conditions. However, I am almost certain this is going to be too warm if I am active when I want to stay dry unless it is silly cold. When I say active I mean scrambling, walking & hiking. For running I tend to go with a base layer and windshirt and carry something warm if I know I am going to be stopping. I am not too worried about rain when I run!
I think what I am after is a jacket or pull on layer that will be fine by itself in milder conditions when I am less active, but also function in colder conditions when I am active (hiking and scrambling) and for both scenarios it should breathe if I do need to reach for a shell if it begins to rain above a light drizzle. I don't want to cook!
My alternative is a jacket or pull-on that breathes well that I can wear without having to reach for my shell unless rain is pretty heavy and this would mean I do not need the Xenon/Atom . Ideally it would have a hood and thumb loops, but this is not a necessity.
I had in mind a number of tops, in the breathable mid layer, from the fairly warm ME Switch which uses a mix of hardfleece and Polartech Alpha to gear like the Rab Power stretch hoody, Arcteryx Konseal and Mammut Eiswand with these being more hard fleece like. For the “one jacket does all” I looked at the Norrona Lofoten Alpha and Rab Strata Alpha or Flex.
I would appreciate any help from those more experienced than me and I thought climbers probably suffer with having to deal with changing conditions and activity levels more.
So, given what I have said is it a mid layer lightweight hard face fleece or a different insulated jacket (Polartec Alpha) that is more breathable or indeed something else?
Many Thanks
Rob
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
I find Rab Vapour-rise pull on to be very good at wicking sweat, I use it for running, in sub zero temps Ill wear a base layer Tshirt underneath but thats about it
I find Rab Vapour-rise pull on to be very good at wicking sweat, I use it for running, in sub zero temps Ill wear a base layer Tshirt underneath but thats about it
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
I have a Rab Xenon and an Arcteryx Konseal and wear them both a lot. They actually work well together with the Konseal under the Xenon and if its really wet an Arcteryx Alpha FL Goretex shell.
I'm not sure what the optimal solution to your requirement is but I'm pretty sure if you bought either the Xenon or the Konseal you would get a lot of use out of them. Maybe the Xenon a bit more than the Konseal.
I have a Rab Xenon and an Arcteryx Konseal and wear them both a lot. They actually work well together with the Konseal under the Xenon and if its really wet an Arcteryx Alpha FL Goretex shell.
I'm not sure what the optimal solution to your requirement is but I'm pretty sure if you bought either the Xenon or the Konseal you would get a lot of use out of them. Maybe the Xenon a bit more than the Konseal.
In reply to ow arm:
Hi, I have heard the VR vents quite well, but running is not really the issue. I tend to go with just the Ventus and a base layer. It was more around lower energy activities in mixed conditions. Unless you do actually mean wear the VR as a mid layer for such activities. I had not really considered as I did not think it would be warm enough when still on its own and would not vent as well as a fleece, but am welcome to your thoughts here.
Hi, I have heard the VR vents quite well, but running is not really the issue. I tend to go with just the Ventus and a base layer. It was more around lower energy activities in mixed conditions. Unless you do actually mean wear the VR as a mid layer for such activities. I had not really considered as I did not think it would be warm enough when still on its own and would not vent as well as a fleece, but am welcome to your thoughts here.
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
I was wondering if this is a trick question, because the obvious answer seems to be a microfleece jacket or pullover, available at price points from £5 to £120. Or perhaps the Patagaonia R1 hoodie, if you really want to pay out.
I was wondering if this is a trick question, because the obvious answer seems to be a microfleece jacket or pullover, available at price points from £5 to £120. Or perhaps the Patagaonia R1 hoodie, if you really want to pay out.
1
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
Yes thats what Id meant, depends how warm you want it really, I find it traps body heat well enough under a shell, everybody is different though its usually a case of experimenting but that can get expensive.
Yes thats what Id meant, depends how warm you want it really, I find it traps body heat well enough under a shell, everybody is different though its usually a case of experimenting but that can get expensive.
In reply to Guy Hurst:
Hahaha!
No tricks. It was "simply" whether buy a lightweight harder face fleece (and which one) that sheds a bit of the weather and then use an existing shell for when it is worse in milder conditions or when I am moving. Or whether to cancel my purchase of an insulated jacket which was going to be used when it was cold and potentially under a shell in the wet and instead get a jacket (and which one) with the Polartech Alpha insulation that would shirk off more of the elements and still be fairly warm, but would still breathe when I was active meaning I would reach for my shell less or whether a hard face fleece would suffice, but again would me i could cancel my order of a synthetic insulated fleece…..does that make sense?
Hahaha!
No tricks. It was "simply" whether buy a lightweight harder face fleece (and which one) that sheds a bit of the weather and then use an existing shell for when it is worse in milder conditions or when I am moving. Or whether to cancel my purchase of an insulated jacket which was going to be used when it was cold and potentially under a shell in the wet and instead get a jacket (and which one) with the Polartech Alpha insulation that would shirk off more of the elements and still be fairly warm, but would still breathe when I was active meaning I would reach for my shell less or whether a hard face fleece would suffice, but again would me i could cancel my order of a synthetic insulated fleece…..does that make sense?
Post edited at 15:52
1
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
I have no experience of this jacket but what about the Patagonia Nano - Air?
cheers
Gaz
I have no experience of this jacket but what about the Patagonia Nano - Air?
cheers
Gaz
In reply to Gazlynn:
I have one and was about to recommend the same. It is exactly what you're after (although the suggestion of a mic third fleece is the obvious and budget alternative
> I have no experience of this jacket but what about the Patagonia Nano - Air?
I have one and was about to recommend the same. It is exactly what you're after (although the suggestion of a mic third fleece is the obvious and budget alternative
Post edited at 16:03
In reply to BnB:
Sorry, that should say mircrogrid fleece.
> I have one and was about to recommend the same. It is exactly what you're after (although the suggestion of a mic third fleece is the obvious and budget alternative
Sorry, that should say mircrogrid fleece.
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
As Guy suggests, the one thing I'd say is missing from your system is a lightweight fleece pullover.
I'd probably call your 'windshirt' a soft shell, given the weight. If you go for the fleece option, you could also add a lightweight 'true windshirt', rather than a hard-faced fleece. The comination of base layer, lightweight fleece and lightweight windshirt is very versatile. You already have the waterproof and static insulation overlayers that I'd suggest to make up a five-piece layering system.
As Guy suggests, the one thing I'd say is missing from your system is a lightweight fleece pullover.
I'd probably call your 'windshirt' a soft shell, given the weight. If you go for the fleece option, you could also add a lightweight 'true windshirt', rather than a hard-faced fleece. The comination of base layer, lightweight fleece and lightweight windshirt is very versatile. You already have the waterproof and static insulation overlayers that I'd suggest to make up a five-piece layering system.
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
I have an Arcteryx Atom LT hoody and really like it as a light belay jacket for long summer rock routes. I almost always find it far too sweaty when I'm moving though. Don't know if one of the new Polartec Alpha thingies might be better in this respect.
Have you thought about an insulated vest? I have a Haglöfs Barrier Vest and I can wear that when I'm moving in cold conditions without steaming up too much. Or if you don't care what you look like, one of those thin insulated short sleeve numbers for runners?
> I was just about to purchase either a Rab Xenon or Arcteryx Atom LT hoody for a less bulky warm layer that can fit under my shell for cold and damp/wet conditions. However, I am almost certain this is going to be too warm if I am active when I want to stay dry unless it is silly cold. When I say active I mean scrambling, walking & hiking.
I have an Arcteryx Atom LT hoody and really like it as a light belay jacket for long summer rock routes. I almost always find it far too sweaty when I'm moving though. Don't know if one of the new Polartec Alpha thingies might be better in this respect.
Have you thought about an insulated vest? I have a Haglöfs Barrier Vest and I can wear that when I'm moving in cold conditions without steaming up too much. Or if you don't care what you look like, one of those thin insulated short sleeve numbers for runners?
In reply to BnB:
Any good? Haven't you got an Alpha jacket as well, could you do a brief comparison?
> I have one and was about to recommend the same.
Any good? Haven't you got an Alpha jacket as well, could you do a brief comparison?
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
Duncan
I currently have an Arcteryx atom vest and a montane fury. Together they are brilliant and if I split them I have room to play with. Works for me under a softshell.
Duncan
I currently have an Arcteryx atom vest and a montane fury. Together they are brilliant and if I split them I have room to play with. Works for me under a softshell.
In reply to galpinos:
Yes I do. Picked up the last medium from Needlesports at a knock down price. Quick review:
The good:
Unbelievably comfortable, knocks the Atom LT and Strata onto a cocked hat, on account of being lighter, slightly thicker insulation layer, having a less heat itch-prone inner fabric, and breathing like a third lung
Massive increase in breathability at a small penalty in wind permeability, all down to the different inner and outer fabrics, means you are at an optimum temperature for much of the day. And no sweat!!
Insulation is outside the pockets not inside them so proper hand warmer pockets
Two chest pockets handy if wearing a harness
Huge operating temperature range. It insulates well in calm conditions and resists all but strong winds. You can keep this on when you'd be tearing the competition off to lose heat. You could wear it all day over a base tee shirt on a UK mountain day (continuous movement) without the need to strip or to add another layer except maybe a shell at lunch
In a deluge it can be worn in comfort under a hardshell where the others wouldn't breathe adequately. This is very important for the UK.
Under a hardshell it makes a good belay combo in all but proper Scottish winter conditions
The bad
Outer fabric rips easily. All the reviews confirm as much and mine has too. Now rocking the gnarly look with duct tape.
Not wind resistant enough to function as a (short stop) winter belay jacket without a windshell, nor insulated enough for long stops in winter.
For Scottish winter pitches I'm currently favouring Rab Strata with its Pertex outer over microgrid fleece over Brynje mesh, owing to the lower wind permeability and tougher outer fabric. Or maybe I'm just scared of ripping my new jacket with shouldered axes
Colours are a bit dull if you like them distinctive. Mine is grey
Summary
Top of the pile for breathability and comfort. Superior operating range. Works far better as a mid-layer than the competition. Warm and well positioned pockets.
Not as wind resistant. Prone to damage.
Yes I do. Picked up the last medium from Needlesports at a knock down price. Quick review:
The good:
Unbelievably comfortable, knocks the Atom LT and Strata onto a cocked hat, on account of being lighter, slightly thicker insulation layer, having a less heat itch-prone inner fabric, and breathing like a third lung
Massive increase in breathability at a small penalty in wind permeability, all down to the different inner and outer fabrics, means you are at an optimum temperature for much of the day. And no sweat!!
Insulation is outside the pockets not inside them so proper hand warmer pockets
Two chest pockets handy if wearing a harness
Huge operating temperature range. It insulates well in calm conditions and resists all but strong winds. You can keep this on when you'd be tearing the competition off to lose heat. You could wear it all day over a base tee shirt on a UK mountain day (continuous movement) without the need to strip or to add another layer except maybe a shell at lunch
In a deluge it can be worn in comfort under a hardshell where the others wouldn't breathe adequately. This is very important for the UK.
Under a hardshell it makes a good belay combo in all but proper Scottish winter conditions
The bad
Outer fabric rips easily. All the reviews confirm as much and mine has too. Now rocking the gnarly look with duct tape.
Not wind resistant enough to function as a (short stop) winter belay jacket without a windshell, nor insulated enough for long stops in winter.
For Scottish winter pitches I'm currently favouring Rab Strata with its Pertex outer over microgrid fleece over Brynje mesh, owing to the lower wind permeability and tougher outer fabric. Or maybe I'm just scared of ripping my new jacket with shouldered axes
Colours are a bit dull if you like them distinctive. Mine is grey
Summary
Top of the pile for breathability and comfort. Superior operating range. Works far better as a mid-layer than the competition. Warm and well positioned pockets.
Not as wind resistant. Prone to damage.
Post edited at 07:42
In reply to BnB:
More than a quick review, thanks! It's rare for pople to actually critise stuff they bought, they normally just say how ace it is in order to prove they made the right decision. I'm a bit of a Patagucci fanboi but have managed to hold off buying one as I wasn't really sure how much use it would get/if I could justify it - I have a lot of jackets or whether it would live up to the hype. Thatnks for taking the plunge!
The only con from your list seem to be the outer fabric. I had noticed Tommy Caldwell wore one on his Patagonian traverse and it looked like he’d been wrestling a bear at the end but as they’d been climbing a lot, had to repeatedly cut there rope etc. I assumed he’d just put it through a lot of abuse (probably more than I’d manage in a year). Obviously it’s just a fragile face fabric.
There are few more colours in the summer range.
More than a quick review, thanks! It's rare for pople to actually critise stuff they bought, they normally just say how ace it is in order to prove they made the right decision. I'm a bit of a Patagucci fanboi but have managed to hold off buying one as I wasn't really sure how much use it would get/if I could justify it - I have a lot of jackets or whether it would live up to the hype. Thatnks for taking the plunge!
The only con from your list seem to be the outer fabric. I had noticed Tommy Caldwell wore one on his Patagonian traverse and it looked like he’d been wrestling a bear at the end but as they’d been climbing a lot, had to repeatedly cut there rope etc. I assumed he’d just put it through a lot of abuse (probably more than I’d manage in a year). Obviously it’s just a fragile face fabric.
There are few more colours in the summer range.
In reply to galpinos:
No worries. If you seek perfection you must find fault!! Oh god, now I sound like Zig Ziglar.
Damn. Just seen the red colour.
No worries. If you seek perfection you must find fault!! Oh god, now I sound like Zig Ziglar.
Damn. Just seen the red colour.
In reply to captain paranoia:
This ^^^^
> I'd probably call your 'windshirt' a soft shell, given the weight. If you go for the fleece option, you could also add a lightweight 'true windshirt', rather than a hard-faced fleece. The comination of base layer, lightweight fleece and lightweight windshirt is very versatile. You already have the waterproof and static insulation overlayers that I'd suggest to make up a five-piece layering system.
This ^^^^
In reply to The New NickB:
Thanks all. I have purchased a Mountain Hardware Micro-pull on fleece that was on half price and I think it will be perfect as a light insulating piece. Never really been affected too much by the wind, but will keep an eye out for any bargins.
Thanks again for the advice.
Thanks all. I have purchased a Mountain Hardware Micro-pull on fleece that was on half price and I think it will be perfect as a light insulating piece. Never really been affected too much by the wind, but will keep an eye out for any bargins.
Thanks again for the advice.
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
It's not about how much you are affected by wind, but how much your clothing system is affected by wind.
Fleece makes a good insulating mid layer, since its open construction allows it to trap warm air whilst allowing evaporated sweat to pass. However, this open nature means that, if not protected by a shell, wind will strip the warmth from it, destroying its insulation properties.
I gave the rationale for a five-piece layering system, and discussed its versatility in this thread on layering:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377801#x5471096
It's not about how much you are affected by wind, but how much your clothing system is affected by wind.
Fleece makes a good insulating mid layer, since its open construction allows it to trap warm air whilst allowing evaporated sweat to pass. However, this open nature means that, if not protected by a shell, wind will strip the warmth from it, destroying its insulation properties.
I gave the rationale for a five-piece layering system, and discussed its versatility in this thread on layering:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377801#x5471096
In reply to Mr_Sneeze:
One of these, was it...?
http://www.tkmaxx.com/mens-ski+outdoor/blue-microchill-fleece/invt/31253766
> I have purchased a Mountain Hardware Micro-pull on fleece
One of these, was it...?
http://www.tkmaxx.com/mens-ski+outdoor/blue-microchill-fleece/invt/31253766
In reply to galpinos:
Update to my brief review of the Patagonia Nano Air
I've been wearing it for Scottish (and a bit of Lakes) winter this season, interchanging with the tried and tested formula of mesh, ME Eclipse, outer (windshirt plus soft- or hard-shell) to see how it performs relatively. After 12 proper winter days and multiple short hikes here's the update:
It is too warm for a proper, big pack, high output walk-in. Take it off leave it off. But its breathability helps it function exceptionally well as the outer layer (over your R1 or Eclipse) on the climb itself if you can live with the inevitable scuffs. No need for a belay jacket on good weather days.
It was too warm over just a base layer on a solo winter traverse of the Aonach Eagach on a dry, misty day, but lovely on the descent when outputs dropped. Nevertheless, I have to applaud the speed of wicking and drying on the sleeves (a personal hotspot) and body. So you are dry minutes after pulling up to a summit.
It was too warm under a shell for a sleety hike up Bruach Na Frithe yesterday, but perfect on the descent as a mid-layer.
It was exceptionally comfortable all day long on a solo winter traverse of the Saddle on an Alpine crisp cool day.
It is perfect for easy-going morning or afternoon hikes on the Pennine moors behind my home. In fact I've never worn anything more comfortable (in the dry).
It transfers indoors well too. You don't boil in the bar!!
Its performance is clearly designed for the typical dry continental cold of the Rockies and Alps (and why not? They and their market are bigger than Scotland) for which it would appear to be an ideal garment. For Scotland it makes a great second half of the day item, when outputs tend to drop and you appreciate a comfortable warmth on the traverse or descent. And it works as an outer on the climb if you afford the damage.
The UK's weather variations exceeds its broad capabilities, but I will keep reaching for it because it is so damned nice to wear (for at least half of every day).
Update to my brief review of the Patagonia Nano Air
I've been wearing it for Scottish (and a bit of Lakes) winter this season, interchanging with the tried and tested formula of mesh, ME Eclipse, outer (windshirt plus soft- or hard-shell) to see how it performs relatively. After 12 proper winter days and multiple short hikes here's the update:
It is too warm for a proper, big pack, high output walk-in. Take it off leave it off. But its breathability helps it function exceptionally well as the outer layer (over your R1 or Eclipse) on the climb itself if you can live with the inevitable scuffs. No need for a belay jacket on good weather days.
It was too warm over just a base layer on a solo winter traverse of the Aonach Eagach on a dry, misty day, but lovely on the descent when outputs dropped. Nevertheless, I have to applaud the speed of wicking and drying on the sleeves (a personal hotspot) and body. So you are dry minutes after pulling up to a summit.
It was too warm under a shell for a sleety hike up Bruach Na Frithe yesterday, but perfect on the descent as a mid-layer.
It was exceptionally comfortable all day long on a solo winter traverse of the Saddle on an Alpine crisp cool day.
It is perfect for easy-going morning or afternoon hikes on the Pennine moors behind my home. In fact I've never worn anything more comfortable (in the dry).
It transfers indoors well too. You don't boil in the bar!!
Its performance is clearly designed for the typical dry continental cold of the Rockies and Alps (and why not? They and their market are bigger than Scotland) for which it would appear to be an ideal garment. For Scotland it makes a great second half of the day item, when outputs tend to drop and you appreciate a comfortable warmth on the traverse or descent. And it works as an outer on the climb if you afford the damage.
The UK's weather variations exceeds its broad capabilities, but I will keep reaching for it because it is so damned nice to wear (for at least half of every day).
2
In reply to BnB:
How does it compare to the Rab Strata hoody? I have that, and bought it just before the Nano Air came out. Suspect the fit on the Nano Air wont be as good as it is for me on the Rab for starters. Last winter I wore a base then a combination of a Montane Alpine Stretch and a Rab Strata hood (either/or/both) and I was fine for 99% of the time.
How does it compare to the Rab Strata hoody? I have that, and bought it just before the Nano Air came out. Suspect the fit on the Nano Air wont be as good as it is for me on the Rab for starters. Last winter I wore a base then a combination of a Montane Alpine Stretch and a Rab Strata hood (either/or/both) and I was fine for 99% of the time.
In reply to JayPee630:
The Strata is a better fit for the slim Rab male and the outer is more durable and windproof. In other respects the Nano is a clear winner, more breathable, better liner, more comfortable, better wicking, better stretch.
The Strata is a better fit for the slim Rab male and the outer is more durable and windproof. In other respects the Nano is a clear winner, more breathable, better liner, more comfortable, better wicking, better stretch.
1
In reply to BnB:
Cheers for the update. One to consider but I'll not be reaching for the wallet just yet.
I am tempted by a mesh base though.........
Cheers for the update. One to consider but I'll not be reaching for the wallet just yet.
I am tempted by a mesh base though.........
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