UKC

As my wife mocked me the other day for moaning about the failure of another piece of pricy of hi-tech clothing, I thought about all the jackets I’ve owned over the years, and began to think she may have a point; bear with me as I go down memory lane...

I got an unbranded (think regatta style) breathable waterproof aged 16, and used it for years. It wasn’t quite up to Scottish winter, and got a bit short in the arms, so when I had a student loan to spend I replaced it. But I’ve still got it almost 20 years later; it’s not quite as waterproof as one might like, but essentially still functional (for gardening), including the zips. My first “proper” jacket was a fairly high spec Berghaus; it had too many pockets, weighed half a ton, but kept me drier than any jacket before or since. It saw a lot of use and the only eventual failure was the hood volume adjuster elastic. The zips are fine.

At a brief point in life when I had disposable income and no responsibilities, I upgraded to a modern, lighter jacket – an ME Tupilac complete with a water resistant zip. It leaked like a sieve, mostly through the zip, and got returned under warranty. I paid a bit extra to upgrade the replacement to a Hagloffs something or other. (Spitze?) It’s nearly 6 years old, but it’s had less use than the Berghaus got in the first 6 months, and the main zip is now showing the unmistakable signs of disintegrating.

The reason I recognise the signs? The zip on my Rab down jacket went last year in the same way; Rab waterproof trousers some time before that.

No old style zips on decent kit have failed me yet - nor, as was pointed out to me, has any zip on my wife’s less expensive, less “climby”, but equally well tested outdoor kit. Whereas every waterproof zip I’ve used has failed before anything else on the garment (except a pair of wp trousers, but they’re almost new. It’ll only be a matter of time I’m well aware I have unrealistic expectations of durability from lightweight kit, but the zip thing seems disproportionate - is it just me, or are modern zips really shit? It’s looking like I’m going to have to dig the Berghaus out of a box in the loft and replace that bungee cord.

Cheers

In reply to DannyH:

Water resistant zips vare much more sensitive to wear. I don't expect them to last. Clean the zips and lube them if you want them to last longer.

In reply to tjin:

Thanks for the tip, I hadn't thought of lubricating them - what do you use?

D

In reply to DannyH:

Somebody please say 'water'. ;D

In reply to DannyH:

Silicon grease works wonders on zips and cheap at car part places

In reply to davy_boy:

Or silicone floor wax.

In reply to DannyH:


http://www.wilko.com/content/ebiz/wilkinsonplus/invt/0157410/0157410_l.jpg

In reply to DannyH:

Wickes sell silicon grease in their plumbing dept. It's used for fitting drainage pipe joints. I also use it on backpack zips as it means less faffing with them and dry suit zips which are expensive to replace and need lubing after each use.

In reply to andrewere:

On another thread, Hilleberg recommend brushing their tent zips every day to remove fine grit etc.

Life's too short, frankly.

Oily based lubricants are bad because of their tendency to attract grit and particles. A soft pencil is a good lubricant.

In reply to DannyH:

What about shit zips catching on the fabric and getting stuck for the 100th time?

Berghaus down (left hand pocket zip) will humiliate no more after last night. I finally removed the problem with a satisfying pop as the zip tore away, never to zip and catch again.

In reply to DannyH:
In an emergency lip balm works well.

In reply to DannyH:

Yes, in agreement, modern zips are s&*t.
Have an old Berghaus gortex jacket and all the zips still work, even after all most daily use. Got a Mountain equipment shell jacket a few years ago with the waterproof (ha) zips as a lighter alternative. All the pocket zips have now failed, simply parting down the middle allowing the contents to spill out!
I note that ME have now gone back to old style chunky zips on there very expensive top of the range models!

Also is there any other manufacturer out there other than YKK? they seam to have the monopoly.

In reply to DannyH:

I wonder if its not that modern zips are shit, but rather that modern shit zips are popular.
There's also the user having lightweight zips and not treating them like lightweight zips factor.

There are other zip manufacturers, scarpa use waterproof tizips on boots for instance - http://www.tizip.com/produkt.php?lang=en&pos=1

In reply to needvert:


Fair comment.

But modern jackets rely totally on a waterproof zip. On the hill you are f****d if the zip fails, no back up velcro or poppers.

In reply to pass and peak:

Back in the 1980s, Rohan used to boast that they used zips that were not YKK. They made quite an issue re their zips.

Zips have always been a headache for me with gear - failing on jackets and pits, constantly getting snagged and the tab/handles falling off. Hate the blighters.

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

Thans for all the replies, glad it's not just me.

Might try silicone grease, got some in the plumbing box, but like someone said, bit worried about dirt sticking to it and making it worse in the long run. As Rick said, there's no back up when they fail, and given how sensitive they seem, this just seems daft - I feel it's a fashion thing. It's telling if ME have moved away from them at the top end.

I can't believe the weight penalty or cost increase from an ordinary zip and well designed storm flap is that great, if Hagloffs got rid of the pointless pocket on the arm that's on my jacket, I reckon the overall weight could stay the about the same.

Anyone got any experience of getting zips on waterproofs replaced? Rab did a tidy job on my down jacket for about £30, but don't do waterproofs because of the way they're bonded to the fabric. Apart from the zip, I think my jacket has several years of life left - it's still waterproof and there's no other real sign of wear and tear. Shelling out (sorry) £250 for a new one I know will have the same problem isn't appealing, even if I had the cash going spare.

In reply to DannyH:

I suspect it's not that easy. My Gortex bike jacket had a sleave zip fail and the main zip tag broke, it was 18 months old and was replaced with a new jacket rather than fixed under the 5 year warranty.
Replacing a £600 jacket for a couple of zips seems very ott to me unless they are very hard to replace.

In reply to pass and peak:

Not completely relevant, but Slate had a good article about YKK and why you see them everywhere. Interesting read!

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/branded/2012/04/ykk_zippers_why_so_m...

In reply to DannyH:


Just DIY or get your local seamster/tress to do it, then use some seam sealant on the inside.

In reply to DannyH:

As Pok mentioned, WP zips are available and you don't have to send it to an outdoor specialist repairer if you don't want to. The richer, bigger, outdoor companies will replace the entire jacket as they can easily afford the cost and often profit a second time when loyal customers declare how happy they are with their service. Perhaps Goretex take the hit as they regulate everything that goes into the jacket anyway.

Wax crayon, candle, stick of beeswax from the chandlers or sewing shop...perhaps even white synthetic grease from the bike shop...always apply it sparingly. McNett sells a zip cleaner and lube all in one, aimed at tents I think, as well as some overpriced wax blocks for wetsuits and outdoor clothing.

Sometimes it is a trade off in different functions with zips: smoother zips often have the locks missing (Arcteryx); waterproof zips are stiffer than water-resistant zips --- RiRi (Crux) are smoother than Aquaseal (ME, Norrona) which are probably smoother than the TiZip things on heavy duty luggage.

The water-resistant reverse coil zips seem to be replaced with water-resistant/proof moulded plastic zips on a lot of higher-end jackets, especially for the main front, which is good as the former don't last more than 10 years in my experience. There have been more than one type of WR reverse coil, however --- the worst I have seen is the ones used by Patagonia and the best was one used by Mountain Hardwear; I have no idea what materials but they were very different.

I don't think velcro flaps is a better solution but it certainly doesn't scream "planned obsolescence" as the WR zips do.

Jon

In reply to Siward:


Yes: I should have added with my floor wax suggestion to use sparingly, and wipe off the excess so you can hardly see any trace of it.

In reply to DannyH:

The manufacturer will be able to replace the zip on a waterproof , my berghaus shell chest pocket zip failed after owning the jacket for around 3 years, i had no receipt etc but got in touch with them anyway, they replaced the full zip set up with the same light weight type, re bonding it etc, it then failed again within a couple of weeks if i remember correctly, so it went back to them again , the second time they replaced the full zip with a heavier duty one that is far better - all free of charge (except the cost of me posting it to them)

In reply to DannyH:

This will probably answer all your questions: youtube.com/watch?v=WBoqJKh7zqA&

ME uses Vislon zips in most of their waterproof jackets. However, I have seen Berghaus Paclite trousers zip being broken this winter - that's not something you want to happen at the top of the hill... On the way down, my climbing partner fell into the river covered by snow and completely tore the other half of the trousers. Not the best trousers for winter, we both agreed.

My Rab Xioms are quite lightweight as well and already feature few holes and scratches.

In reply to DannyH:
Something worth thinking about, especially for a long trip, is self-repairing a coil zipper (actually the zip slider) using a leatherman and a metal stopper. Pliers can be used to tighten the gates of a worn slider, but carrying a spare might be less risky.

See this video on Norrona's repair page:

https://www.norrona.com/en-GB/Help-me/Repairs/

If I can't find a new metal end stopper, like she uses in the video, I will look for an old zip or buy a very cheap zip and carefully take one off that.

Edit: of course, you can sew the end to make a stopper as well.

In reply to DannyH:

I use the McNett stuff specially made to lub zips. Someoutdoor and all diving shops have it.

Beeswax is preferred for zips on dry suits, both brass coil zips and TiZips. Not sure about the type of zips on outdoor clothing. No oily things go anywhere near any of my waterproof kit though!

In reply to DannyH:

I was taught (by my mum, and everyone knows that mums know best) that:
- Type A. Zips made from a coiled/shaped nylon thread = bad
- Type B. Zips made from individually formed teeth = good

Sadly I have had to waive the golden rule for my latest belay jacket because I couldn't find a lightlweight hollofil hoody with a decent zip. They all seem to be type A.

In reply to DannyH:

I remember watching this vid by Pro Lite Gear in the US last year.
Interesting to hear from someone in the sales industry who's experience pretty much tallies up with your point.

youtube.com/watch?v=WBoqJKh7zqA&

My old Lowe Alpine stuff from the 80's and 90's had either a metal zip with storm flaps or were moulded plastic with flaps.
All of my newer lighter weight stuff seems to use the coil zip with only one or two exceptions.

In reply to DannyH:

Agreed.

I now won't buy a jacket unless it has something like the YKK Vislon or a conventional zip with a baffle. Hava had far too many main zips bust far too quickly to look at them again - I won't ever buy anything RAB after my experience with them.

In reply to RoK:

just got round to watching that you tube clip and there you go - 95 % of their jacket warranty returns are failed coil zips. Shame 95% of jackets now seem to use them... Anyway I have now been educated: vislon / moulded zips only from now on!

In reply to DannyH:
You could try Scottish Mountain Gear or Lancashire Sports Repairs for having zips on waterproofs replaced.

Since they (both?) do alterations and are Gore approved, I dare say they'd fit a velcro flap for you and a beefier zip?

In reply to DannyH:

I'm thinking about gradually having all the coil zips on my outdoor gear replaced now after reading this thread.

My nice new Rab down coat has a water resistant coil zip too, it looks cool, but I'd rather it had the kind of zip which is on my Carrington era down jacket.

In reply to JJL:




Having looked at the zips which I find to be 'reassuring and quality' in feel, they all have individually formed teeth. It makes sense that my Rab Carrington era Rab down jacket has a zip with individually formed teeth on it. He always seemed like the kind of guy to do things *properly* when he took my jacket off my to be repaired or gave it back again, after my managing to make holes in it. This thread's been really helpful and interesting.

Your mum was right.

In reply to RoK:





It doesn't seem a bitg penalty to pay to have a heavier zip if it's more durable. I can see myself sharing the video about the two kinds of zips with loads of people now, and being vaguely annoying-boring in talking about zips.

No wonder Rab Carrongton used to put YKK Vislon zips on his down jackets, rather than coil, the last thing you want on a down coat is a failing zip.

In reply to DannyH:

Aren't zips interesting?

In reply to DannyH:

Am I the only person who has never ever had a zip fail?

In reply to DannyH:

I guess this link belongs here:

https://www.fixnzip.com/

In reply to DannyH:

My Spitz has been rubbish too. The chest pocket zips leak and the pockets fill up with water, main zip leaks too.

In reply to DannyH:


I've just contacted Haglofs UK to tell 'em the zips on each of my two Haglofs jackets (3 years old) whilst never having failed, have always been hard to "start". Merely annoying when putting jacket on indoors, but a right pain with cold fingers and/or gloves.
First let me say what a great response I got from Haglofs. First they suggested lubricant and sent me (free of charge) a tube of the lubricant they use. It worked on one but not the other. They then arranged for the second jacket to have the zip replaced, again free of charge.
And the lubricant they recommend? McNett Zip Care.

In reply to DannyH:

What an awesome thread, we're all zip geeks now

In reply to DannyH:

Another for the rubbish zips list: Buffalo hooded belay jacket. Within three days of purchase, the zip had lost three teeth, but was still operable. Another three days and it broke completely, unrelated to the earlier breakage. I'm sure Buffalo customer service would have been great, but it was cheaper to have a new zip put on than send it back (living outside the UK).

In reply to Sharp:

It seems Rab do put moulded 'vislon' zips on some of the their gear still, but not all of it.