This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Hi
Just been discussing this with a friend, i carry my slings with a snaplink they say that i should be using screwgates.
So i was wondering what the colective thoughts on here are?
Pros of screwgates i see is that they are "safer" but then use snaplinks on every other bit of gear, the con being the extra weight of carrying 4 or so more screwgates plus the ones you carry for the belay anyway.
Thanks
Just been discussing this with a friend, i carry my slings with a snaplink they say that i should be using screwgates.
So i was wondering what the colective thoughts on here are?
Pros of screwgates i see is that they are "safer" but then use snaplinks on every other bit of gear, the con being the extra weight of carrying 4 or so more screwgates plus the ones you carry for the belay anyway.
Thanks
3
In reply to Stopper:
I use snapgates. Never fully understood the use of screwgates on thread and spike runners. Obviously it's a bit safer, but as you say, all the other gear is clipped with a snapgate.
> but then use snaplinks on every other bit of gear
I use snapgates. Never fully understood the use of screwgates on thread and spike runners. Obviously it's a bit safer, but as you say, all the other gear is clipped with a snapgate.
In reply to Stopper:
There are pros and cons as you've correctly identified so I'd suggest you should make your own decision.
My slings get whichever krab is floating about loose in the pile of gear I shake out of my bag, the exception to that being if I were expecting to be slinging spikes for quick and dirty belays in which case I'd hunt a bit harder for a screwgate.
jk
There are pros and cons as you've correctly identified so I'd suggest you should make your own decision.
My slings get whichever krab is floating about loose in the pile of gear I shake out of my bag, the exception to that being if I were expecting to be slinging spikes for quick and dirty belays in which case I'd hunt a bit harder for a screwgate.
jk
In reply to Stopper:
Sounds like your friend has just read a "how to ..." book rather than work out what works best for them.
Sounds like your friend has just read a "how to ..." book rather than work out what works best for them.
5
In reply to Stopper:
As slings are usually used for spikes and belays it make sense to have screwgates on them, on a spike the extra weight can help to stop the sling lifting off and at the belay you're already set up with a screwgate.
of course each to their own it just saves some arsing about.
As slings are usually used for spikes and belays it make sense to have screwgates on them, on a spike the extra weight can help to stop the sling lifting off and at the belay you're already set up with a screwgate.
of course each to their own it just saves some arsing about.
8
1
In reply to Stopper:
Snap gates for me, as you say, every other runner is a snap. I do use screws on a belay if the rope runs free or it's out of sight (clove hitch - snap, just clipped though and back to to my harness, screw).
Snap gates for me, as you say, every other runner is a snap. I do use screws on a belay if the rope runs free or it's out of sight (clove hitch - snap, just clipped though and back to to my harness, screw).
1
In reply to Stopper:
Each to there own , screwgates obviously safer yet heavier - I just have one or two for slings over spikes which I feel the extra weight has been handy more than a few times to keep it down ( not lift off ! ,
Some routes may require 10 slings , wouldn't fancy carrying 10 screwgates as well , that's just me
Each to there own , screwgates obviously safer yet heavier - I just have one or two for slings over spikes which I feel the extra weight has been handy more than a few times to keep it down ( not lift off ! ,
Some routes may require 10 slings , wouldn't fancy carrying 10 screwgates as well , that's just me
In reply to Stopper:
The Edelrid sliders are worth a look. Lighter and smaller than screwgates although I think I will always carry my Petzl William for belays. There is something very reassuring about it.
Al
The Edelrid sliders are worth a look. Lighter and smaller than screwgates although I think I will always carry my Petzl William for belays. There is something very reassuring about it.
Al
1
In reply to ericinbristol:
Depends. If there's a single anchor, ie I'm using a tree or spike, then I use a screwgate. If I have more than one I use snapgates as I have redundancy.
> ...screws for belays.
Depends. If there's a single anchor, ie I'm using a tree or spike, then I use a screwgate. If I have more than one I use snapgates as I have redundancy.
Post edited at 10:29
In reply to Stopper:
I use a screw gate on a sling - if it's for a belay that may well be a tree and it makes sure that the gate will not be held open by said tree. I only usually carry one long sling anyway, so it's no big deal. I carry two short slings, each with a snap and a screwgate on it. They get used as runners - the screwgate goes on the end that looks as though it has potential to hold a gate open, given that it's going to get a fair whip if I fall off. There's usually a 4th big screwgate on my harness for belay wotsits.
I use a screw gate on a sling - if it's for a belay that may well be a tree and it makes sure that the gate will not be held open by said tree. I only usually carry one long sling anyway, so it's no big deal. I carry two short slings, each with a snap and a screwgate on it. They get used as runners - the screwgate goes on the end that looks as though it has potential to hold a gate open, given that it's going to get a fair whip if I fall off. There's usually a 4th big screwgate on my harness for belay wotsits.
In reply to Stopper:
Like everyone else says, it's up to you. I like screwgates on belays when possible, so my standard rack for years has included 2 120 cm slings and 2 60 cm slings. Generally each as lightish screwgate with them. If I need them as runners on the pitch I might not even do up the screwgate if I'm pumped, but if they are used as part of the belay, then the screwgates are there to make it all feel nice and "best practice".
I got a number of Edelrid Pure Sliders to review recently and they are nice halfway house although clipping a rope into one, one handed is tricky. But for years I've used Edelrid Pure screwgates http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/edelrid-pure-screwgate-p-1000.html They are very decent weight at 43 grams and only I think 1 or 2 grams heavier than the Slider version.
Actually, I'd recommend the Pure screwgates to anyone looking for a bog standard but very light screwgate for doing just about anything. DMM Phantom screwgates are a couple of grams lighter but quite a lot smaller in the hand.
Like everyone else says, it's up to you. I like screwgates on belays when possible, so my standard rack for years has included 2 120 cm slings and 2 60 cm slings. Generally each as lightish screwgate with them. If I need them as runners on the pitch I might not even do up the screwgate if I'm pumped, but if they are used as part of the belay, then the screwgates are there to make it all feel nice and "best practice".
I got a number of Edelrid Pure Sliders to review recently and they are nice halfway house although clipping a rope into one, one handed is tricky. But for years I've used Edelrid Pure screwgates http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/edelrid-pure-screwgate-p-1000.html They are very decent weight at 43 grams and only I think 1 or 2 grams heavier than the Slider version.
Actually, I'd recommend the Pure screwgates to anyone looking for a bog standard but very light screwgate for doing just about anything. DMM Phantom screwgates are a couple of grams lighter but quite a lot smaller in the hand.
In reply to Stopper:
I carry screwgates on most of my middling and long slings because I generally think of both as being "belay gear". This might be because I mostly climb on grit (where you get lots of block belays and not many thread / spike / tree runners) and very easy stuff (where you've normally got time to swap out a screwgate for a snapgate off a quickdraw if you find a good thread or a spike), though.
I carry screwgates on most of my middling and long slings because I generally think of both as being "belay gear". This might be because I mostly climb on grit (where you get lots of block belays and not many thread / spike / tree runners) and very easy stuff (where you've normally got time to swap out a screwgate for a snapgate off a quickdraw if you find a good thread or a spike), though.
In reply to Stopper:
It's down to personal choice, really - ideally informed by an understanding of the pros and cons of each option.
I carry screwgates on my slings because I very often use them in constructing belays and I want screwgates for that. However, some people are quite happy to use snapgates for belays as well (usually within constraints such as the krab being within reach of the stance).
As for the weight issue: provided you use normal screwgates rather than full-size HMSs it shouldn't be any more than a few ounces of extra weight. For example, DMM Phantom screwgates are only 15g heavier than the Phantom snapgate, so four of them would be less than three ounces more then four of DMM's lightest snapgates. (And if cost is an issue, Needlesports are currently doing the WC Neon Keylock screwgate - which is only 2g heavier than the Phantom screwgate - for the same price as the Phantom snapgate.)
It's down to personal choice, really - ideally informed by an understanding of the pros and cons of each option.
I carry screwgates on my slings because I very often use them in constructing belays and I want screwgates for that. However, some people are quite happy to use snapgates for belays as well (usually within constraints such as the krab being within reach of the stance).
As for the weight issue: provided you use normal screwgates rather than full-size HMSs it shouldn't be any more than a few ounces of extra weight. For example, DMM Phantom screwgates are only 15g heavier than the Phantom snapgate, so four of them would be less than three ounces more then four of DMM's lightest snapgates. (And if cost is an issue, Needlesports are currently doing the WC Neon Keylock screwgate - which is only 2g heavier than the Phantom screwgate - for the same price as the Phantom snapgate.)
In reply to Stopper:
I have (but may not always carry):
5 alpine draws (60cm slings), Spectre 2 snapgates (because they were cheap)
2 x 120cm sling with green Phantom snapgate
2 x 240cm sling with Phantom screwgate
1 x 400cm sling with Phantom screwgate
Everything is 8mm except one of the 240cm slings.
The nice thing about the Alpine draws is that because you have two crabs on them if you use it as a sling runner then you can put the snapgates opposing and have all the security of a screwgate (actually more). I did want more 120cm slings when doing Bosi ridge moving together (the 60cm were a bit short) but then I did only stop to gear up 3 (maybe 4) times so was running out of everything :P
I recognise this is quite a lot! But this is a maximum rack where I will be probably using this gear to build two sling belays if I am taking a pair of people up a multipitch route, at which point two long slings is a minimum (and 240cm is often too short if the gear is spaced/there are more than 3 pieces). Since the long slings are usually either belay gear or bomber gear, they get screwgates (which usually then hold the guide plate in a belay).
PS don't read this as saying you need screwgates on slings, you don't! If for example you carry spare snapgates, or can cannibalise them off other gear, you can always oppose a pair even for a belay.
I have (but may not always carry):
5 alpine draws (60cm slings), Spectre 2 snapgates (because they were cheap)
2 x 120cm sling with green Phantom snapgate
2 x 240cm sling with Phantom screwgate
1 x 400cm sling with Phantom screwgate
Everything is 8mm except one of the 240cm slings.
The nice thing about the Alpine draws is that because you have two crabs on them if you use it as a sling runner then you can put the snapgates opposing and have all the security of a screwgate (actually more). I did want more 120cm slings when doing Bosi ridge moving together (the 60cm were a bit short) but then I did only stop to gear up 3 (maybe 4) times so was running out of everything :P
I recognise this is quite a lot! But this is a maximum rack where I will be probably using this gear to build two sling belays if I am taking a pair of people up a multipitch route, at which point two long slings is a minimum (and 240cm is often too short if the gear is spaced/there are more than 3 pieces). Since the long slings are usually either belay gear or bomber gear, they get screwgates (which usually then hold the guide plate in a belay).
PS don't read this as saying you need screwgates on slings, you don't! If for example you carry spare snapgates, or can cannibalise them off other gear, you can always oppose a pair even for a belay.
Post edited at 11:49
In reply to Stopper:
I always thought the reason for screwgates on slings was because of the possibility shown in this video...
youtube.com/watch?v=TrlKLS9eK28&
I always thought the reason for screwgates on slings was because of the possibility shown in this video...
youtube.com/watch?v=TrlKLS9eK28&
Post edited at 13:13
1
In reply to cragsman9000:
Ah f*&^k me - look at the next video: youtube.com/watch?v=a3XhgVBPuEM&
Shows that wiregates do not actually prevent gate flutter _at all_ - they just lower the amount the gate opens! Scary.
Ah f*&^k me - look at the next video: youtube.com/watch?v=a3XhgVBPuEM&
Shows that wiregates do not actually prevent gate flutter _at all_ - they just lower the amount the gate opens! Scary.
In reply to SenzuBean:
Despite the title of the film, most people would not call that gate flutter - it only opens once rather than fluttering. Fluttering supposedly occurs when a loaded rope runs through a snap gate. Any got a link to a video of this?
> Ah f*&^k me - look at the next video: youtube.com/watch?v=a3XhgVBPuEM&
> Shows that wiregates do not actually prevent gate flutter _at all_ - they just lower the amount the gate opens! Scary.
Despite the title of the film, most people would not call that gate flutter - it only opens once rather than fluttering. Fluttering supposedly occurs when a loaded rope runs through a snap gate. Any got a link to a video of this?
In reply to David Coley:
It seems you're correct. It also seems the term for what's in the video is 'gate shutter' - http://blog.weighmyrack.com/gate-flutter-and-gate-shutter-explained/ ?
> Despite the title of the film, most people would not call that gate flutter - it only opens once rather than fluttering. Fluttering supposedly occurs when a loaded rope runs through a snap gate. Any got a link to a video of this?
It seems you're correct. It also seems the term for what's in the video is 'gate shutter' - http://blog.weighmyrack.com/gate-flutter-and-gate-shutter-explained/ ?
In reply to David Coley:
Hi David,
I was under the impression (perhaps erroneously) that once the crab is under load, the gate (if in the notch of the crab) would be fixed, making it very difficult for it to open, never mind vibrate?
Granted if the crab becomes loaded while in the gate open position, the gate will not be able to close fully until it is unweighted. This will all happen so fast that we probably won't get to witness it.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Hi David,
I was under the impression (perhaps erroneously) that once the crab is under load, the gate (if in the notch of the crab) would be fixed, making it very difficult for it to open, never mind vibrate?
Granted if the crab becomes loaded while in the gate open position, the gate will not be able to close fully until it is unweighted. This will all happen so fast that we probably won't get to witness it.
Can anyone enlighten me?
In reply to krikoman:
"As slings are usually used for spikes and belays it make sense to have screwgates on them, on a spike the extra weight can help to stop the sling lifting off"
Sorry but I'm not buying that argument its such a marginal weight difference. If you think its going to lift off you are better off extending it, even adding a large hex might not help that much in a fall if the rope pulls it off from flicking it or if a runner above it loads then fails..
"and at the belay you're already set up with a screwgate"
Yeah but ideally you'll be carrying a minimum number of screwgates for the belay anyways so you don't want to be left short because you used them on the pitch.
"As slings are usually used for spikes and belays it make sense to have screwgates on them, on a spike the extra weight can help to stop the sling lifting off"
Sorry but I'm not buying that argument its such a marginal weight difference. If you think its going to lift off you are better off extending it, even adding a large hex might not help that much in a fall if the rope pulls it off from flicking it or if a runner above it loads then fails..
"and at the belay you're already set up with a screwgate"
Yeah but ideally you'll be carrying a minimum number of screwgates for the belay anyways so you don't want to be left short because you used them on the pitch.
Post edited at 16:20
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I think he means you already have the screwgate in hand, ready to go - saving yourself about 5 seconds or so
> "and at the belay you're already set up with a screwgate"
> Yeah but ideally you'll be carrying a minimum number of screwgates for the belay anyways you don't want to be left short because you used them on the pitch.
I think he means you already have the screwgate in hand, ready to go - saving yourself about 5 seconds or so
In reply to cragsman9000:
Not really, that can happen with many long runners too, or sling draws, its just incredibly unlikely to happen as without fixing the rotation / position of either the biner or the sling it's incredibly rare.
> I always thought the reason for screwgates on slings was because of the possibility shown in this video...
Not really, that can happen with many long runners too, or sling draws, its just incredibly unlikely to happen as without fixing the rotation / position of either the biner or the sling it's incredibly rare.
Post edited at 16:14
In reply to SenzuBean:
sure I realised that but its not to hand if you already used the sling lower down with the screw gate on it. even more of a pain if you don't need the sling but want to use the screw gate.
sure I realised that but its not to hand if you already used the sling lower down with the screw gate on it. even more of a pain if you don't need the sling but want to use the screw gate.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Why would you be carrying the minimum number of screwgates for the belay? This seems a very strange statement.
> Yeah but ideally you'll be carrying a minimum number of screwgates for the belay anyways so you don't want to be left short because you used them on the pitch.
Why would you be carrying the minimum number of screwgates for the belay? This seems a very strange statement.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Incredibly rare maybe, but by using a screwgate it won't happen so again I don't see your argument.
Deaths are thankfully incredibly rare, that maybe due to people taking as many sensible precautions as practicable.
Obviously each to their own, but I all ready have a number of screwgates so why not use them?
> Not really, that can happen with many long runners too, or sling draws, its just incredibly unlikely to happen as without fixing the rotation / position of either the biner or the sling it's incredibly rare.
Incredibly rare maybe, but by using a screwgate it won't happen so again I don't see your argument.
Deaths are thankfully incredibly rare, that maybe due to people taking as many sensible precautions as practicable.
Obviously each to their own, but I all ready have a number of screwgates so why not use them?
In reply to Stopper:
I usually carry:
2 short slings on snaplinks
1 long sling on a snaplink
1 long sling on a screw gate.
2 screw gates for the belay.
Andy
I usually carry:
2 short slings on snaplinks
1 long sling on a snaplink
1 long sling on a screw gate.
2 screw gates for the belay.
Andy
1
In reply to krikoman:
You can never negate all the risk in climbing. It's about understanding what risk is acceptable and what isn't. To a degree this is a personal choice. It's not necessarily dangerous to use snap gates on slings so why bother carrying the extra weight at all?
Why don't you use screw gates on all the connections of your quick draws this is also undoubtedly less risk also. However tbh I don't think your going to have significantly lowered your risk of death by doing this (or by using them on slings) as there are generally much higher risk ways of dying than if you used a screwgate on a runner or a snap gate.
However that said I'm not saying I'd never consider it a good idea to use a screw gate on a sling runner (or indeed any runner for that matter). For example if it was the only gear protecting a long fall with no other likely gear to emerge soon and a high likelihood of a fall I may use a screw gate on all connections to it!
You can never negate all the risk in climbing. It's about understanding what risk is acceptable and what isn't. To a degree this is a personal choice. It's not necessarily dangerous to use snap gates on slings so why bother carrying the extra weight at all?
Why don't you use screw gates on all the connections of your quick draws this is also undoubtedly less risk also. However tbh I don't think your going to have significantly lowered your risk of death by doing this (or by using them on slings) as there are generally much higher risk ways of dying than if you used a screwgate on a runner or a snap gate.
However that said I'm not saying I'd never consider it a good idea to use a screw gate on a sling runner (or indeed any runner for that matter). For example if it was the only gear protecting a long fall with no other likely gear to emerge soon and a high likelihood of a fall I may use a screw gate on all connections to it!
Post edited at 17:00
In reply to krikoman:
I meant generally when I rack up for a climb or pack my gear I consider how many screwgates I'm going to need for that climb. I don't carry up all the screwgates I own.
I can of course (nearly?) always set up a safe belay with no screwgates they are not essential.
> Why would you be carrying the minimum number of screwgates for the belay? This seems a very strange statement.
I meant generally when I rack up for a climb or pack my gear I consider how many screwgates I'm going to need for that climb. I don't carry up all the screwgates I own.
I can of course (nearly?) always set up a safe belay with no screwgates they are not essential.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
So which is it, extra weight or a marginal difference?
It always amuses me when people start talking about the weight of climbing equipment or bike frames. I'm probably carrying an extra stone that I could do without, 2 if I wanted to get back to my boxing weight, so the difference between a snap gate of a screwgate is meaningless to me when carrying it.
The difference when holding down the loose end of a sling slightly more.
When I climb I have a number of bits of kit at my disposal, I like to have stuff that has a dual purpose if possible. So I have wire gates on my quickdraws for convenience and screwgates on my slings. It's always worked for me and there are logical reasons for me having this particular set up.
Most people can set up belays without screwgates, I've climbed with knotted ropes instead of nuts and cams too, but if you all ready have the items then why not use the best bit you've got for the safest use? how ever marginal that safety margin is, why not take it? It's no harder for me to do this, in fact it would be harder for me to use clips rahter than screwgates!
> You can never negate all the risk in climbing. It's about understanding what risk is acceptable and what isn't. To a degree this is a personal choice. It's not necessarily dangerous to use snap gates on slings so why bother carrying the extra weight at all?
>> Sorry but I'm not buying that argument its such a marginal weight difference. So which is it, extra weight or a marginal difference?
It always amuses me when people start talking about the weight of climbing equipment or bike frames. I'm probably carrying an extra stone that I could do without, 2 if I wanted to get back to my boxing weight, so the difference between a snap gate of a screwgate is meaningless to me when carrying it.
The difference when holding down the loose end of a sling slightly more.
When I climb I have a number of bits of kit at my disposal, I like to have stuff that has a dual purpose if possible. So I have wire gates on my quickdraws for convenience and screwgates on my slings. It's always worked for me and there are logical reasons for me having this particular set up.
Most people can set up belays without screwgates, I've climbed with knotted ropes instead of nuts and cams too, but if you all ready have the items then why not use the best bit you've got for the safest use? how ever marginal that safety margin is, why not take it? It's no harder for me to do this, in fact it would be harder for me to use clips rahter than screwgates!
In reply to krikoman:
"So which is it, extra weight or a marginal difference?"
It would be a significant extra weight to use them on all my rope connections, so why do it only on a few as a matter of course?
The marginal extra weight as I believe you well understood on my original reply, is that which would stop a sling flicking off when considering a single screwgate verses a single snap gate in isolation.
"So which is it, extra weight or a marginal difference?"
It would be a significant extra weight to use them on all my rope connections, so why do it only on a few as a matter of course?
The marginal extra weight as I believe you well understood on my original reply, is that which would stop a sling flicking off when considering a single screwgate verses a single snap gate in isolation.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...