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Climbers in Restricted Area -Malham Cove. Nesting Peregrines.
It was reported on the 24th of June that two climbers were in the restricted area at Malham Cove.
They appeared to be on Carnage Left Hand which starts just outside the restricted area then traverses into it!
There are no excuses for this action. Notices, internet publicity and guidebooks clearly point out the restrictions at this time of year!
This type of action only exacerbates the situation. A lot of work and effort has gone into keeping Malham open for climbing at this time of year despite the fact that there are nesting peregrines. A restriction area is in force to protect them.
The police were called to Malham but the perpetrators appeared to have left soon afterwards.....They were photographed and the images are very clear!!!
Nigel Baker...BMC. Area Limestone Rep.
It was reported on the 24th of June that two climbers were in the restricted area at Malham Cove.
They appeared to be on Carnage Left Hand which starts just outside the restricted area then traverses into it!
There are no excuses for this action. Notices, internet publicity and guidebooks clearly point out the restrictions at this time of year!
This type of action only exacerbates the situation. A lot of work and effort has gone into keeping Malham open for climbing at this time of year despite the fact that there are nesting peregrines. A restriction area is in force to protect them.
The police were called to Malham but the perpetrators appeared to have left soon afterwards.....They were photographed and the images are very clear!!!
Nigel Baker...BMC. Area Limestone Rep.
5
In reply to nigel baker:
It was great the police was called so two or more police persons can jump into car get the blue lights flashing tazers charged and ready only to tell them "please don't climb there in future"
It was great the police was called so two or more police persons can jump into car get the blue lights flashing tazers charged and ready only to tell them "please don't climb there in future"
5
5
In reply to robert-hutton:
Without knowing the detail, it's impossible to tell how over the top calling the police would be.
It certainly has the potential for an imprisonable offence but was it the actions of an overzealous birder who hates climbers? Much more worrying if it was the actions of one of the Rangers, who after having a word, was told where to go and decided they had better get the police to explain the seriousness of the situation.
It's not the first time this year that the police have attended.
> It was great the police was called so two or more police persons can jump into car get the blue lights flashing tazers charged and ready only to tell them "please don't climb there in future"
Without knowing the detail, it's impossible to tell how over the top calling the police would be.
It certainly has the potential for an imprisonable offence but was it the actions of an overzealous birder who hates climbers? Much more worrying if it was the actions of one of the Rangers, who after having a word, was told where to go and decided they had better get the police to explain the seriousness of the situation.
It's not the first time this year that the police have attended.
2
In reply to robert-hutton:
As peregrins are a schedule 1 species, it is an offence to disturb the nesting site. Punishable with fines or imprisonment. I'd hope that the banned area would be considered the nesting "site"
As peregrins are a schedule 1 species, it is an offence to disturb the nesting site. Punishable with fines or imprisonment. I'd hope that the banned area would be considered the nesting "site"
2
In reply to winhill:
A few years ago we headed to Malham to climb on the right wing and the Rangers/bird watchers at the foot of the cove had a telescope for anyone to look at the nest and also had a guide or photocopy of it to show which routes to avoid. A peek through the scope, a bit of a chat about our intended routes and all was well. Doesn't take much.
I don't think such incidents are a new thing - many years ago a certain well known mountaineer got pulled up for climbing on an unsigned restricted crag - but with the increased numbers of climbers and of protected species such as Peregrines there are likely to be more such cases.
A few years ago we headed to Malham to climb on the right wing and the Rangers/bird watchers at the foot of the cove had a telescope for anyone to look at the nest and also had a guide or photocopy of it to show which routes to avoid. A peek through the scope, a bit of a chat about our intended routes and all was well. Doesn't take much.
I don't think such incidents are a new thing - many years ago a certain well known mountaineer got pulled up for climbing on an unsigned restricted crag - but with the increased numbers of climbers and of protected species such as Peregrines there are likely to be more such cases.
1
In reply to Bob:
Call me naive but one of the main attractions of climbing is surely being out in the natural environment, appreciating your surroundings and the creatures you share it with ? I've got great memories of Carnage LH, looking in to the peregrine's nest site (after the chicks had fledged and the ban had ended) and watching the peregrines wheeling about. Why would you want to disturb them if you weren't a total cockwomble ?
Call me naive but one of the main attractions of climbing is surely being out in the natural environment, appreciating your surroundings and the creatures you share it with ? I've got great memories of Carnage LH, looking in to the peregrine's nest site (after the chicks had fledged and the ban had ended) and watching the peregrines wheeling about. Why would you want to disturb them if you weren't a total cockwomble ?
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In reply to lummox:
I have no idea. I have on a couple of occasions accidentally encroached too close to a peregrine's nest (you soon know about it from the racket the parents make) but one of those times was outside the bird ban and I was climbing with the guidebook author. Due to the bad weather the birds had nested a few weeks late but the eggs had hatched so there was less chance of them abandoning the nest. Before anyone gets huffy - unknown to us we were being watched by the RSPB warden who had a chat with us afterwards and said that where we were wasn't actually a problem.
Peregrines are quite variable in their acceptance of humans - those at Blue Scar go ballistic the moment you step out of the car; the Malham pair seem much more relaxed. Once when climbing on Pavey Ark I was belayed at the top of Capella and a Peregrine landed about four metres away and simply wasn't bothered about my presence. A couple of years ago I was riding in a sportive over Cross o' Greet from Slaidburn and there was a Peregrine sat at the side of the road dismembering a pigeon, totally unfazed by a couple of hundred cyclists going past.
Still doesn't justify the behaviour described by the OP.
I have no idea. I have on a couple of occasions accidentally encroached too close to a peregrine's nest (you soon know about it from the racket the parents make) but one of those times was outside the bird ban and I was climbing with the guidebook author. Due to the bad weather the birds had nested a few weeks late but the eggs had hatched so there was less chance of them abandoning the nest. Before anyone gets huffy - unknown to us we were being watched by the RSPB warden who had a chat with us afterwards and said that where we were wasn't actually a problem.
Peregrines are quite variable in their acceptance of humans - those at Blue Scar go ballistic the moment you step out of the car; the Malham pair seem much more relaxed. Once when climbing on Pavey Ark I was belayed at the top of Capella and a Peregrine landed about four metres away and simply wasn't bothered about my presence. A couple of years ago I was riding in a sportive over Cross o' Greet from Slaidburn and there was a Peregrine sat at the side of the road dismembering a pigeon, totally unfazed by a couple of hundred cyclists going past.
Still doesn't justify the behaviour described by the OP.
1
In reply to Bob:
Peregrines don't mind climbers - we share the same territory. They only worry about Crows or Ravens. RSPB and many twitchers are rampant fascists.
There is no issue with sharing crags with Peregrines but sharing them with RSPB is much harder. It is ludicrous not to climb on any area with Peregrines, and as they spread we should resist restrictions that are unnecessary and invented by some RSPB zealot.
Peregrines don't mind climbers - we share the same territory. They only worry about Crows or Ravens. RSPB and many twitchers are rampant fascists.
There is no issue with sharing crags with Peregrines but sharing them with RSPB is much harder. It is ludicrous not to climb on any area with Peregrines, and as they spread we should resist restrictions that are unnecessary and invented by some RSPB zealot.
2
26
In reply to Removed User:
what a stupid statement,are you a gamekeeper or just someone whos head is up your backside
i expect thats why police get called to deal with people like yourself
what a stupid statement,are you a gamekeeper or just someone whos head is up your backside
i expect thats why police get called to deal with people like yourself
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2
In reply to sheeny:
> i expect thats why police get called to deal with people like yourself
Clearly you have zero understanding of what you posted about so keep your ludicrous comments to yourself unless you offer something useful to climbers.
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In reply to Removed User:
We do share the crags with them, we just don't go trampling through their homes. Its the same as being able to walk across a farmer's land, it doesn't give you the right to picnic in their garden
We do share the crags with them, we just don't go trampling through their homes. Its the same as being able to walk across a farmer's land, it doesn't give you the right to picnic in their garden
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In reply to lummox:
Who has said they want to disturb them?
> Why would you want to disturb them if you weren't a total cockwomble ?
Who has said they want to disturb them?
In reply to Removed User:
Pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw...
> Clearly you have zero understanding of what you posted about so keep your ludicrous comments to yourself unless you offer something useful to climbers.
Pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw...
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2
In reply to Tyler:
Well... if they ignored the signs (physical and digital), climbed a route which is renowned for being the nesting site for peregrines and climbed it during the nesting season, I thought it was a good bet that they would disturb the peregrines.
Maybe not though.
Well... if they ignored the signs (physical and digital), climbed a route which is renowned for being the nesting site for peregrines and climbed it during the nesting season, I thought it was a good bet that they would disturb the peregrines.
Maybe not though.
6
In reply to Removed User:
I am reliably informed that Peregrines are quite sensitive to nest disturbance, particularly early in the breeding season. It is also illegal to knowingly disturb a nesting peregrine, the chicks or the nest - which could just mean being close to the nest. Some will be less sensitive but many will not be, and I have heard reports of breeding peregrines who's nests have failed likely due to disturbance by climbers.
> Peregrines don't mind climbers - we share the same territory. They only worry about Crows or Ravens. RSPB and many twitchers are rampant fascists.
I am reliably informed that Peregrines are quite sensitive to nest disturbance, particularly early in the breeding season. It is also illegal to knowingly disturb a nesting peregrine, the chicks or the nest - which could just mean being close to the nest. Some will be less sensitive but many will not be, and I have heard reports of breeding peregrines who's nests have failed likely due to disturbance by climbers.
2
In reply to lummox:
It may well be renowned if you're a Malham aficionado or a local birder but if you're an occasional visitor with an old guide who doesn't check the access database for busy/popular crags (like me and I doubt I'm alone if we're being honest) you're reliant on clear signs at the crag and or a friendly word from others in the know if you stray into a banned area.
I've no interest in disturbing nesting birds and I doubt I'm unusual in that but I know I could and occasionally have by accident.
jk
> Well... if they ignored the signs (physical and digital), climbed a route which is renowned for being the nesting site for peregrines and climbed it during the nesting season, I thought it was a good bet that they would disturb the peregrines.
It may well be renowned if you're a Malham aficionado or a local birder but if you're an occasional visitor with an old guide who doesn't check the access database for busy/popular crags (like me and I doubt I'm alone if we're being honest) you're reliant on clear signs at the crag and or a friendly word from others in the know if you stray into a banned area.
> Maybe not though.
I've no interest in disturbing nesting birds and I doubt I'm unusual in that but I know I could and occasionally have by accident.
jk
1
In reply to lummox:
Thank you for that I can't wait to use that word in casual conversation. Canadians however amenable, lack linguistic flair. That's a gem of a word - old hat to you perhaps but now gleefully acquired by me!
Oh and yea - climbing in restricted areas is lame like a one-legged dog.
> ... Why would you want to disturb them if you weren't a total cockwomble ?
Thank you for that I can't wait to use that word in casual conversation. Canadians however amenable, lack linguistic flair. That's a gem of a word - old hat to you perhaps but now gleefully acquired by me!
Oh and yea - climbing in restricted areas is lame like a one-legged dog.
1
In reply to jkarran:
Aye - I'm sure its fairly easy to miss a bird ban unlesss the signage at the crag is good.
Although garanteed to polarise opinion climber666's point is true to a certain extent. Having bird bans is likely to lead to more of them covering a greater proportion of crags as the birds do better, most people would probably say that was a good thing within reason though!
Where I'm sat I can hear a red kite calling as it flies over the site. It was a good thing they got protected, but they aren't so rare now!
Aye - I'm sure its fairly easy to miss a bird ban unlesss the signage at the crag is good.
Although garanteed to polarise opinion climber666's point is true to a certain extent. Having bird bans is likely to lead to more of them covering a greater proportion of crags as the birds do better, most people would probably say that was a good thing within reason though!
Where I'm sat I can hear a red kite calling as it flies over the site. It was a good thing they got protected, but they aren't so rare now!
1
In reply to Dan_S:
The Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 wording provided by RSPB is:
'intentionally or recklessly disturb any wild bird listed on Schedule 1 while it is nest building, or at a nest containing eggs or young, or disturb the dependent young of such a bird.'
http://www.rspb.org.uk/forprofessionals/policy/wildbirdslaw/birdsandlaw/wca...
I doubt they were doing intending to disturb. Reckless sounds like a pretty high legal behavior threshold test (lawyers out there?).
Surely the outer part of the restricted area is a precautionary 'buffer' zone where it's actually unlikely that criminal disturbance could be caused. There must be an inner zone where criminal disturbance is most likely to be caused.
The Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 wording provided by RSPB is:
'intentionally or recklessly disturb any wild bird listed on Schedule 1 while it is nest building, or at a nest containing eggs or young, or disturb the dependent young of such a bird.'
http://www.rspb.org.uk/forprofessionals/policy/wildbirdslaw/birdsandlaw/wca...
I doubt they were doing intending to disturb. Reckless sounds like a pretty high legal behavior threshold test (lawyers out there?).
Surely the outer part of the restricted area is a precautionary 'buffer' zone where it's actually unlikely that criminal disturbance could be caused. There must be an inner zone where criminal disturbance is most likely to be caused.
1
In reply to jkarran:
I haven't been to Malham this year, but in previous years the signs have been unmissable.
> you're reliant on clear signs at the crag
I haven't been to Malham this year, but in previous years the signs have been unmissable.
1
In reply to ChrisJD:
I find it utterly amazing that some climbers do not have a 6th sense about birds. We share the same habitat, we co-exist, we love each other. No climber will ever disturb a Peregrine. Buzzards are a different matter even from half a mile away they will aggressively defend their patch and attack. Peregrines are relaxed - they sense who we are. They have more sense than RSPB zealots.
We have the right and obligation to preserve our climbing areas - they form a tiny tiny % of the hillsides - there are millions of acres for Peregrines (and plenty of racing pigeons too!) and their numbers (+ Buzzards) are skyrocketing.
If a climber communes with nature he/she hurts nothing.
> Surely the outer part of the restricted area is a precautionary 'buffer' zone where it's actually unlikely that criminal disturbance could be caused. There must be an inner zone where criminal disturbance is most likely to be caused.
I find it utterly amazing that some climbers do not have a 6th sense about birds. We share the same habitat, we co-exist, we love each other. No climber will ever disturb a Peregrine. Buzzards are a different matter even from half a mile away they will aggressively defend their patch and attack. Peregrines are relaxed - they sense who we are. They have more sense than RSPB zealots.
We have the right and obligation to preserve our climbing areas - they form a tiny tiny % of the hillsides - there are millions of acres for Peregrines (and plenty of racing pigeons too!) and their numbers (+ Buzzards) are skyrocketing.
If a climber communes with nature he/she hurts nothing.
2
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In reply to Simon Caldwell:
The signs were unmissable this year! Along with the hoard of 'birders' with telescopes, who were happy to allow you to look through their expensive piece of equipment. I found they were as keen to speak about their hobby as climbers are about theirs.
Whilst talking to them, two guys with ropes wandered past muttering along the lines of "don't you have anything better to do." That may have been aimed at me, because I was carrying a rope, but standing talking to interesting people instead of actually hanging from a bolt on a rope, which seemed to be the main activity of the day.
The signs were unmissable this year! Along with the hoard of 'birders' with telescopes, who were happy to allow you to look through their expensive piece of equipment. I found they were as keen to speak about their hobby as climbers are about theirs.
Whilst talking to them, two guys with ropes wandered past muttering along the lines of "don't you have anything better to do." That may have been aimed at me, because I was carrying a rope, but standing talking to interesting people instead of actually hanging from a bolt on a rope, which seemed to be the main activity of the day.
2
In reply to nigel baker:
How much disturbance peregrines will tolerate is a matter of debate. Malham and Blue Scar are only a few miles apart but the restrictions seem to be from different planets. However, be that as it may, climbers collectively via the BMC agree certain restrictions and it seems to me to be common sense to abide by them. The law is on the birders' side and the less cause we give them to use it against us to close crags, as they have at Blue Scar,
the better.
How much disturbance peregrines will tolerate is a matter of debate. Malham and Blue Scar are only a few miles apart but the restrictions seem to be from different planets. However, be that as it may, climbers collectively via the BMC agree certain restrictions and it seems to me to be common sense to abide by them. The law is on the birders' side and the less cause we give them to use it against us to close crags, as they have at Blue Scar,
the better.
2
In reply to nigel baker:
Good advice Nigel.
The agreed ban area is very clearly signposted on site. In terms of the here and now, dont climb in the ban area. End of!
Chris
Good advice Nigel.
The agreed ban area is very clearly signposted on site. In terms of the here and now, dont climb in the ban area. End of!
Chris
1
In reply to Removed User:
Just because a bird is not attacking you does not mean they are not disturbed. I have been involved with one of the projects to ring baby peregrines, and even when you are taking their chicks away from the nest they will not attack you. In the cases I was involved with they mostly just circled around the surrounding area making the alarm call; apparently sometimes they are much more passive. We are clearly disturbing the birds in this case, and yet they are not attacking... The ringing happens at very specific times where it is known that the peregrines will not abandon their young (but before the chicks start to fledge), and the benefit to science in understanding the birds (hopefully) exceeds any temporary disturbance. Disturbance at earlier times, during or before nesting or when the chicks are young,
This is total rubbish. Climbers cause all sorts of environmental damage - we damage or create paths and erosion by our approaches and descents, strip wildlife from cliffs (or are tacit in doing so by climbing on bare cliffs), often disturb birds and other animals to a greater or lesser degree (I found myself on the second belay of Doorpost the other day next to a jackdaw nest hidden in a crack, although I don't think it was a problem, and accidentally came close to a razorbill egg on Lundy on an unrestricted cliff before retreating), drive long distances to crags with all the requisite environmental damage, buy lots of shiny gear with raw materials extracted through mining and processed using energy which is still largely from fossil fuels...
I'm not saying we should all stop climbing but it is reasonable that we consider our impact, minimise it where possible and certainly don't stick our heads in the sand and pretend we are 'communing with nature' and have no impact at all...
I am borderline on calling this a troll :P but if we are not careful, the selfish minority will spoil it for everyone, as has happened many times before.
> I find it utterly amazing that some climbers do not have a 6th sense about birds. We share the same habitat, we co-exist, we love each other. No climber will ever disturb a Peregrine. Buzzards are a different matter even from half a mile away they will aggressively defend their patch and attack. Peregrines are relaxed - they sense who we are. They have more sense than RSPB zealots.
Just because a bird is not attacking you does not mean they are not disturbed. I have been involved with one of the projects to ring baby peregrines, and even when you are taking their chicks away from the nest they will not attack you. In the cases I was involved with they mostly just circled around the surrounding area making the alarm call; apparently sometimes they are much more passive. We are clearly disturbing the birds in this case, and yet they are not attacking... The ringing happens at very specific times where it is known that the peregrines will not abandon their young (but before the chicks start to fledge), and the benefit to science in understanding the birds (hopefully) exceeds any temporary disturbance. Disturbance at earlier times, during or before nesting or when the chicks are young,
> If a climber communes with nature he/she hurts nothing.
This is total rubbish. Climbers cause all sorts of environmental damage - we damage or create paths and erosion by our approaches and descents, strip wildlife from cliffs (or are tacit in doing so by climbing on bare cliffs), often disturb birds and other animals to a greater or lesser degree (I found myself on the second belay of Doorpost the other day next to a jackdaw nest hidden in a crack, although I don't think it was a problem, and accidentally came close to a razorbill egg on Lundy on an unrestricted cliff before retreating), drive long distances to crags with all the requisite environmental damage, buy lots of shiny gear with raw materials extracted through mining and processed using energy which is still largely from fossil fuels...
I'm not saying we should all stop climbing but it is reasonable that we consider our impact, minimise it where possible and certainly don't stick our heads in the sand and pretend we are 'communing with nature' and have no impact at all...
I am borderline on calling this a troll :P but if we are not careful, the selfish minority will spoil it for everyone, as has happened many times before.
Post edited at 13:40
4
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