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So, I've decided to go with a method that someone on here talked about (sorry forgot username) when on glaciers with only 2 people. One A ties into the middle of the rope, then the 2 strands go to the person B. One of those strands has butterfly knots in it but the other strand doesn't. Person B then ties into both strands with ~15-20 meters between persons. Person B then takes coils with the remaining rope.
In the event of a fall, the strand WITH butterfly knots is slightly shorter than the strand without, therefore in a fall the strand with the butterfly knots takes the load and digs into the lip. The other strand is slightly slack. This slack strand without knots can then be used to haul the fallen climber out.
One problem with this is if person B falls in, then person A has no coils with which to create a haul system. My idea is that they have in their rucksack a length of static rope that they can use to create a Z pulley or a Z+C system.
I've attached a link to a drawing I've done...I'd be really grateful if someone could critique it please
https://flic.kr/p/vpjdEV
Potential problems:
-On traditional system only P1 must be bomb proof...in this system P1, P2 and p4 must be bomb proof since the red rope between p1 and p2 will go slack.
-More gear and so weight
-More to potentially go wrong/ make mistakes.
Thanks for any help, I think this system will work but could do with another eye. Cheers
Post edited at 13:43
In reply to phja:
If B falls in and is unconscious or otherwise incapable of self-rescue, there's no way to attach the new rope to them. Which is the only real situation in which I'd be especially worried about setting up a haul, because if they're uninjured then they can always prusik up the live rope.
Given that limitation, I'd just have them both carry coils with a single strand between them (knots to preference) as normal. That also saves carrying extra rope which has only one specific purpose, which is about as far away from 'fast and light' as you can get!
If B falls in and is unconscious or otherwise incapable of self-rescue, there's no way to attach the new rope to them. Which is the only real situation in which I'd be especially worried about setting up a haul, because if they're uninjured then they can always prusik up the live rope.
Given that limitation, I'd just have them both carry coils with a single strand between them (knots to preference) as normal. That also saves carrying extra rope which has only one specific purpose, which is about as far away from 'fast and light' as you can get!
In reply to phja:
It was may be me who suggested this system (copying an possibly poorly remembered idea from "jon" sometime ago). I think with some thought it would be possible to set up a haul system without the need to escape the system or create an anchor (other than yourself). The idea is that the unknotted rope has some slack and this is used to haul, perhaps using the knotted rope to connect a prussick. I will see if I can draw this later.
I am sceptical about the possibility of prussicking out of crevasse without help (overhanging lip, rope deeply cut in etc...), particularly if there is only one strand which is knotted, this is why the above system appeals to me.
It was may be me who suggested this system (copying an possibly poorly remembered idea from "jon" sometime ago). I think with some thought it would be possible to set up a haul system without the need to escape the system or create an anchor (other than yourself). The idea is that the unknotted rope has some slack and this is used to haul, perhaps using the knotted rope to connect a prussick. I will see if I can draw this later.
I am sceptical about the possibility of prussicking out of crevasse without help (overhanging lip, rope deeply cut in etc...), particularly if there is only one strand which is knotted, this is why the above system appeals to me.
In reply to tehmarks:
Thanks for the reply. In this system, if person B falls in then person A can use a prussik to attach a static rope to the dynamic rope going to the climber...there will be no need for climber B to be conscious or able to help.
> If B falls in and is unconscious or otherwise incapable of self-rescue, there's no way to attach the new rope to them. Which is the only real situation in which I'd be especially worried about setting up a haul, because if they're uninjured then they can always prusik up the live rope.
Thanks for the reply. In this system, if person B falls in then person A can use a prussik to attach a static rope to the dynamic rope going to the climber...there will be no need for climber B to be conscious or able to help.
In reply to MG:
Yes, that's about right, Martin. It came directly from ENSA and was dubbed, if I remember correctly, the Norwegian system (I think). I did say that I'd try it out but never got around to it - though I'm sure it works absolutely fine. However, now that I've moved away from the land of North Sloping Ice to that of olive groves and chilled rosè, my memory has faded somewhat. Another glass, I hear you say? Cheers!
> It was may be me who suggested this system (copying an possibly poorly remembered idea from "jon" sometime ago).
Yes, that's about right, Martin. It came directly from ENSA and was dubbed, if I remember correctly, the Norwegian system (I think). I did say that I'd try it out but never got around to it - though I'm sure it works absolutely fine. However, now that I've moved away from the land of North Sloping Ice to that of olive groves and chilled rosè, my memory has faded somewhat. Another glass, I hear you say? Cheers!
1
In reply to jon:
Well it works sufficiently to walk around grotty quarries without tripping up. May have further field reports in a few weeks.
> Yes, that's about right, Martin. It came directly from ENSA and was dubbed, if I remember correctly, the Norwegian system (I think). I did say that I'd try it out but never got around to it
Well it works sufficiently to walk around grotty quarries without tripping up. May have further field reports in a few weeks.
In reply to phja:
Say you have 20m between climbers and the knotted rope is reasonably taught. Allow perhaps 1m of slack in the other rope. Any more and you'd be tripping over it.
Now person A falls in a hole and the load comes into the knotted rope. How much will that rope stretch when loaded? I would expect it to stretch enough that the un-knotted rope would then also become tight and a pain to release the coils. Thoughts?
Say you have 20m between climbers and the knotted rope is reasonably taught. Allow perhaps 1m of slack in the other rope. Any more and you'd be tripping over it.
Now person A falls in a hole and the load comes into the knotted rope. How much will that rope stretch when loaded? I would expect it to stretch enough that the un-knotted rope would then also become tight and a pain to release the coils. Thoughts?
In reply to NottsRich:
As MG says each person carries coils of the unknotted rope. Done right there's no way that both ropes will be taut. Indeed, the system I've seen uses the unknotted rope to do the hauling as well.
As MG says each person carries coils of the unknotted rope. Done right there's no way that both ropes will be taut. Indeed, the system I've seen uses the unknotted rope to do the hauling as well.
In reply to jon:
I'd be interested to hear how this could be done? Thanks!
> Indeed, the system I've seen uses the unknotted rope to do the hauling as well.
I'd be interested to hear how this could be done? Thanks!
In reply to phja:
You obviously need a full length rope. You do it as a classic hoist - as if the knotted rope wasn't there. The more rope you use in the knotted part of the rope the less rope you have to play with (obviously). You might have to improvise around any problems encountered. The important thing is to have a lot more unknotted than knotted - in your diagram the rope you're hauling with should have a big heap of slack next to the belay.
You obviously need a full length rope. You do it as a classic hoist - as if the knotted rope wasn't there. The more rope you use in the knotted part of the rope the less rope you have to play with (obviously). You might have to improvise around any problems encountered. The important thing is to have a lot more unknotted than knotted - in your diagram the rope you're hauling with should have a big heap of slack next to the belay.
Post edited at 20:57
In reply to phja:
Hi
For me what u r suggesting is very complex, not great when the proverbial hits the fan and you r carrying lots of gear which only has 1 purpose, ie rescue. I think gear needs to be multi purpose in the mountains. The idea of tieing knots in the rope to catch the fall sounds great on ur sofa but in practice the knots r going to snag all the time. Yes ur meant to keep the rope tight but wen ur tired or stopping etc it will happen.
Unless ur breaking trail u have a good idea of where to avoid, plus being sensible with the sun vs snow conditions is where I wud be heading and use the following as a basis https://www.thebmc.co.uk/crevasse-rescue
Davey
Hi
For me what u r suggesting is very complex, not great when the proverbial hits the fan and you r carrying lots of gear which only has 1 purpose, ie rescue. I think gear needs to be multi purpose in the mountains. The idea of tieing knots in the rope to catch the fall sounds great on ur sofa but in practice the knots r going to snag all the time. Yes ur meant to keep the rope tight but wen ur tired or stopping etc it will happen.
Unless ur breaking trail u have a good idea of where to avoid, plus being sensible with the sun vs snow conditions is where I wud be heading and use the following as a basis https://www.thebmc.co.uk/crevasse-rescue
Davey
Post edited at 21:03
In reply to jon:
I guess all this extra rope would need to be carried as hand coils.
From my workings out, the knotted rope will take up 21m of rope (the tying of knots will bring this down to 15m). The remaining 29m will be portioned as; 15m between the climbers and then each climber holds 7m as coils.
If a climber falls into a crevasse, the coils are dropped and the person at the surface has, theoretically, 14m to play with for setting up a pulley system.
Does this sound reasonable?
I guess all this extra rope would need to be carried as hand coils.
From my workings out, the knotted rope will take up 21m of rope (the tying of knots will bring this down to 15m). The remaining 29m will be portioned as; 15m between the climbers and then each climber holds 7m as coils.
If a climber falls into a crevasse, the coils are dropped and the person at the surface has, theoretically, 14m to play with for setting up a pulley system.
Does this sound reasonable?
In reply to phja:
Gotta say it all sounds quite complicated to me. What is wrong with 2 people, 10 - 12 m apart carrying equal amounts of rope either as coils or stowed in their packs, 3 knots on the rope between you?
Gotta say it all sounds quite complicated to me. What is wrong with 2 people, 10 - 12 m apart carrying equal amounts of rope either as coils or stowed in their packs, 3 knots on the rope between you?
2
In reply to AdrianC:
Prussicking out or hauling would be tricky with knots, and there is a need to escape the system and find an anchor to haul in any case. I think the problem with it is it would need to be swapped around for mixed ground or a ridge as two strands would tangle here. However for long glacier routes, it makes sense to me.
Prussicking out or hauling would be tricky with knots, and there is a need to escape the system and find an anchor to haul in any case. I think the problem with it is it would need to be swapped around for mixed ground or a ridge as two strands would tangle here. However for long glacier routes, it makes sense to me.
In reply to MG:
It's quite possible to prusik past a knot and you use the rope you're carrying as coils or in your pack to create a haul system for which yes - you need to build an anchor. That need doesn't go away whatever your rope arrangement is.
It's quite possible to prusik past a knot and you use the rope you're carrying as coils or in your pack to create a haul system for which yes - you need to build an anchor. That need doesn't go away whatever your rope arrangement is.
In reply to AdrianC:
With the rope embedded in the lip of a crevasse? I have my doubts, practically. I fact I'm told prussicking up a unknotted rope is next to impossible in this situation.
. That need doesn't go away whatever your rope arrangement is.
But it does, that is one plus
> It's quite possible to prusik past a knot
With the rope embedded in the lip of a crevasse? I have my doubts, practically. I fact I'm told prussicking up a unknotted rope is next to impossible in this situation.
. That need doesn't go away whatever your rope arrangement is.
But it does, that is one plus
Post edited at 21:30
In reply to MG:
It's quite possible to prusik out of a crevasse - yes you have to dig to get at the rope - your ice axe comes in handy.
How do you haul someone out without an anchor?
It's quite possible to prusik out of a crevasse - yes you have to dig to get at the rope - your ice axe comes in handy.
How do you haul someone out without an anchor?
In reply to MG:
My theory when going above the bergshrund or onto a ridge is that one person (the person clipped into the end of the rope) could unclip and the knotted rope could be stored in the rucksack of the other person. That would leave just the unknotted rope between the climbers
My theory when going above the bergshrund or onto a ridge is that one person (the person clipped into the end of the rope) could unclip and the knotted rope could be stored in the rucksack of the other person. That would leave just the unknotted rope between the climbers
In reply to AdrianC:
I wouldn't like to rely on being able to do this. A friend who fell in "properly", said after 40 mins he was exhausted and believed he may not have been able to get out. At this point a helicopter arrived.
Treat your tie in loop as the anchor after holding the fall. If you have slack rope, as with this scheme, you can set up a hoist as normal then, albeit with rather restricted possible pull length. With coils tied off you can't. Thinking about it, without coils but just tied on with rope in a saxk, the option is there too
> It's quite possible to prusik out of a crevasse - yes you have to dig to get at the rope - your ice axe comes in handy.
I wouldn't like to rely on being able to do this. A friend who fell in "properly", said after 40 mins he was exhausted and believed he may not have been able to get out. At this point a helicopter arrived.
> How do you haul someone out without an anchor?
Treat your tie in loop as the anchor after holding the fall. If you have slack rope, as with this scheme, you can set up a hoist as normal then, albeit with rather restricted possible pull length. With coils tied off you can't. Thinking about it, without coils but just tied on with rope in a saxk, the option is there too
In reply to phja:
I've just looked at your diagram (sorry - should have done that earlier.) P1 is your progress capture prusik (or whatever other autublock) - yes? What is there to make the red rope move through it? When you pull on the green rope the victim will rise but I can't see what will move the red rope through P1 - won't it just go slack between P2 & P1?
I've just looked at your diagram (sorry - should have done that earlier.) P1 is your progress capture prusik (or whatever other autublock) - yes? What is there to make the red rope move through it? When you pull on the green rope the victim will rise but I can't see what will move the red rope through P1 - won't it just go slack between P2 & P1?
In reply to MG:
Your tied off coils are isolated from the rope between the climbers. Even with weight on your waist you're completely free to remove them from round your body (or in your pack) and use them. I've never tried building a 6:1 haul system off my own waist but that sounds dubious to me. (Everything else I'm advocating here is stuff I've done and taught in real crevasses many times.)
Your tied off coils are isolated from the rope between the climbers. Even with weight on your waist you're completely free to remove them from round your body (or in your pack) and use them. I've never tried building a 6:1 haul system off my own waist but that sounds dubious to me. (Everything else I'm advocating here is stuff I've done and taught in real crevasses many times.)
In reply to AdrianC:
I take coils something like this, which means I can't. Do you do something different?
http://www.rockclimbingcompany.co.uk/Technical-Information/Rope-Coils-Scram...
I've never tried building a 6:1 haul system off my own waist but that sounds dubious to me.
I'll admit I have not tried it but with help from below, 3:1 might be sufficient, maybe?
> Your tied off coils are isolated from the rope between the climbers. Even with weight on your waist you're completely free to remove them from round your body (or in your pack) and use them.
I take coils something like this, which means I can't. Do you do something different?
http://www.rockclimbingcompany.co.uk/Technical-Information/Rope-Coils-Scram...
I've never tried building a 6:1 haul system off my own waist but that sounds dubious to me.
I'll admit I have not tried it but with help from below, 3:1 might be sufficient, maybe?
In reply to AdrianC:
normally p1 would be progress capture prusik but with this system p4 would become progress capture. I agree with other posters that taking extra rope is a bit over the top. I like the idea of the unknotted rope taking coils by hand...will try this out tomorrow and see how it goes.
normally p1 would be progress capture prusik but with this system p4 would become progress capture. I agree with other posters that taking extra rope is a bit over the top. I like the idea of the unknotted rope taking coils by hand...will try this out tomorrow and see how it goes.
In reply to phja:
If you can try setting a haul mechanism in and out of the system and report back, that would be interesting.
If you can try setting a haul mechanism in and out of the system and report back, that would be interesting.
In reply to MG:
Yes - I do something different from that coiling method. For holding a crevasse fall that method is not ideal for two reasons. 1. The one we're talking about - you can't release the coils so they're useless to you when the rope to your mate is weighted. 2. If you're stopping the fall the load on you is high. The live rope is attached to the coils around rib height so you'll be pulled head first which will make it extremely hard to stop the fall. The load needs to be on your waist loop.
So - having got to the point in the last photo, take the rope to your mate and tie a figure of 8 on the bight (some use a clove hitch) about 30cms along it and clip this into your belay loop with a screwgate (ideally add a second biner (snapgate is ok) to avoid cross loading.) Your coils are now isolated from the rope between you and if you do have to stop a fall the load is low down on you.
3:1 hauling systems usually work fine on rock but the relatively sharp angle that the rope into the crevasse goes through at the lip adds quite a bit of friction even when it's padded. So 3:1 on a drop loop (i.e. 6:1) or a mariner system (5:1) are probably going to be needed if there's only one rescuer.
Yes - I do something different from that coiling method. For holding a crevasse fall that method is not ideal for two reasons. 1. The one we're talking about - you can't release the coils so they're useless to you when the rope to your mate is weighted. 2. If you're stopping the fall the load on you is high. The live rope is attached to the coils around rib height so you'll be pulled head first which will make it extremely hard to stop the fall. The load needs to be on your waist loop.
So - having got to the point in the last photo, take the rope to your mate and tie a figure of 8 on the bight (some use a clove hitch) about 30cms along it and clip this into your belay loop with a screwgate (ideally add a second biner (snapgate is ok) to avoid cross loading.) Your coils are now isolated from the rope between you and if you do have to stop a fall the load is low down on you.
3:1 hauling systems usually work fine on rock but the relatively sharp angle that the rope into the crevasse goes through at the lip adds quite a bit of friction even when it's padded. So 3:1 on a drop loop (i.e. 6:1) or a mariner system (5:1) are probably going to be needed if there's only one rescuer.
In reply to AdrianC:
Sounds sensible. I use a prussic to solve you poi t 2 but I can the advantages of having rope available.
Sounds sensible. I use a prussic to solve you poi t 2 but I can the advantages of having rope available.
In reply to phja:
After a bit more looking, I think there's a problem here.
You pull green until P3 reaches P4 (or their respective pulleys meet), lock P4 and rest. Now what? To pull in more red you have to reset P2 back towards the lip which means allowing the green rope back through P4 which is locked and is the only thing holding the victim.
You are at least free to pull the newly slack red through P1 but the victim's weight will still be on P4 so how to release it?
After a bit more looking, I think there's a problem here.
You pull green until P3 reaches P4 (or their respective pulleys meet), lock P4 and rest. Now what? To pull in more red you have to reset P2 back towards the lip which means allowing the green rope back through P4 which is locked and is the only thing holding the victim.
You are at least free to pull the newly slack red through P1 but the victim's weight will still be on P4 so how to release it?
In reply to AdrianC:
If I've understood what you're saying...when pulling on the green rope, p2 will be drawn towards the anchor creating slack between p1 and p2...in this case I would pull the slack between p1 and p2 through p1. This will cause p1 to be come the progress keeping prusik. p4 can then be released and p2 can be reset nearer the lip.
If I've understood what you're saying...when pulling on the green rope, p2 will be drawn towards the anchor creating slack between p1 and p2...in this case I would pull the slack between p1 and p2 through p1. This will cause p1 to be come the progress keeping prusik. p4 can then be released and p2 can be reset nearer the lip.
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