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So can I Sharpie (Permanent marker) the middle of my rope or are their better products out there to do this as the middle marker is getting quite faint.
Steve
Steve
In reply to sbattams:
No idea if its "safe" but I'd like to do this as well so hopefully someone will know the answer
No idea if its "safe" but I'd like to do this as well so hopefully someone will know the answer
In reply to sbattams:
Beal do a rope marker, it's quite expensive & the applicator isn't much good, mine broke after a couple of uses
Beal do a rope marker, it's quite expensive & the applicator isn't much good, mine broke after a couple of uses
In reply to sbattams:
I have and would say it's not a big no-no. how ever manufacturers seem pretty clearly to state NO. Then again, even intensive testing of things manufacturers claim are deadly to ropes seem to point out that they really ain't.
Still, why risk it. Instead follow these instructions. Easier to spot (and also change the mark, when you have to chop off a few meters from the end).
http://www.haukkari.net/2011/11/nonniin-nyt-olisi-luvassa-jotain.html
I have and would say it's not a big no-no. how ever manufacturers seem pretty clearly to state NO. Then again, even intensive testing of things manufacturers claim are deadly to ropes seem to point out that they really ain't.
Still, why risk it. Instead follow these instructions. Easier to spot (and also change the mark, when you have to chop off a few meters from the end).
http://www.haukkari.net/2011/11/nonniin-nyt-olisi-luvassa-jotain.html
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In reply to Hat Dude:
The instructions on mine say it is suitable for Beal, Blue Water, Edelweiss, Lanex, Maxim, PMI and Roca ropes, this is because Mammut did a test and claimed it reduced the strength of their ropes by 50%!
> Beal do a rope marker...
The instructions on mine say it is suitable for Beal, Blue Water, Edelweiss, Lanex, Maxim, PMI and Roca ropes, this is because Mammut did a test and claimed it reduced the strength of their ropes by 50%!
In reply to HeMa:
This is a good idea, i've seen it done similarly but not leaving such long dangly ends.
> Still, why risk it. Instead follow these instructions. Easier to spot (and also change the mark, when you have to chop off a few meters from the end).
This is a good idea, i've seen it done similarly but not leaving such long dangly ends.
In reply to sbattams:
Why not dye the whole rope leaving a small loop undyed in the middle? Then you won't have to worry about the middle failing.
Why not dye the whole rope leaving a small loop undyed in the middle? Then you won't have to worry about the middle failing.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
How was it done differently to leave shorter ends? I'm trying to think of a way of tying them off or getting the ends back inside the sheath so that they're not loose, but I can't think how.
How was it done differently to leave shorter ends? I'm trying to think of a way of tying them off or getting the ends back inside the sheath so that they're not loose, but I can't think how.
In reply to sbattams:
tests have been done and even using manufacturer recommended markers can damage ropes (assumedly of other manufacturers ropes?)
tests have been done and even using manufacturer recommended markers can damage ropes (assumedly of other manufacturers ropes?)
Post edited at 14:16
In reply to EddInaBox:
The tests I saw claimed that if the marked section was loaded over an edge it was weaker even with manufacturer recommended markers! (but possibly only on some other manufacturers ropes).
Unfortunately the original tests don't seem to be available on the net anymore or not easily anyway they were on the UIAA site, Canadian alpine club and also the mammut site had some info
The tests I saw claimed that if the marked section was loaded over an edge it was weaker even with manufacturer recommended markers! (but possibly only on some other manufacturers ropes).
Unfortunately the original tests don't seem to be available on the net anymore or not easily anyway they were on the UIAA site, Canadian alpine club and also the mammut site had some info
Post edited at 14:23
In reply to NottsRich:
Just thread more though the rope so that it's visible and cut the end tight to the side of the rope so it's gets lost in the middle of the rope.
Just thread more though the rope so that it's visible and cut the end tight to the side of the rope so it's gets lost in the middle of the rope.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
I wouldn't use the beal marker, I marked my ropes with this and it made the coloured area horribly stiff and an arse to get through the belay plate (think this is why some tests report a 50%reduction in strength I.e. if the painted bit is over an edge)
I wouldn't use the beal marker, I marked my ropes with this and it made the coloured area horribly stiff and an arse to get through the belay plate (think this is why some tests report a 50%reduction in strength I.e. if the painted bit is over an edge)
In reply to sbattams:
I've marked an Edelweiss and a Beal rope - years ago - with a standard permanent marker and I'm not dead yet.
One of my ropes is marked with normal electrical tape, but then I mainly use that one at the wall (single rope) and the belay plate is not a problem as you rarely need that much rope indoors.
I've marked an Edelweiss and a Beal rope - years ago - with a standard permanent marker and I'm not dead yet.
One of my ropes is marked with normal electrical tape, but then I mainly use that one at the wall (single rope) and the belay plate is not a problem as you rarely need that much rope indoors.
In reply to EddInaBox:
So based on this :
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc-lab-can-i-use-a-sharpie-to-mark-the-...
using a sharpie increases the breaking strain..?
So based on this :
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc-lab-can-i-use-a-sharpie-to-mark-the-...
using a sharpie increases the breaking strain..?
Post edited at 20:22
In reply to EddInaBox:
The comments in the article referenced above about "a pen sold by Beal" for marking ropes are rather worrying. But I'm going to stay rather skeptical about the article itself, I think. Firstly, because as far as I know, what Beal produce isn't really a pen (although I can see how it could be described as such), and secondly because I can't find direct evidence of what the (unknown) author is quoting about the "pen" weakening the rope. Seems to me unlikely that Beal would continue to market a product specifically for ropes that any tests had shown could compromise the integrity of a rope by 50%! Or have Beal sued Mammut for making such a claim perhaps? Can anybody find direct evidence of Mammut's report? Seriously. I'd be interested.
I've been using the Beal rope marker product on my ropes for years now...so let's say I have a vested interest in hoping the article/Mammut have got it wrong. As another poster commented, if you put too much of the stuff on, it does make the rope incredibly stiff, so I just put a couple of lines on.
Incidentally, I used to use insulation tape to mark the middle but gave up rather abruptly: one day I had to thread the rope for an abseil through a closed loop at the anchor and decided to thread one end, then gather up coils starting from the ends (as you would do if there was nothing marking the middle), rather than simply pulling one end through until I reached the insulation tape marking the middle. This should have meant that the last coil would contain the mid-point of the rope, complete with insulation tape marker. I was rather puzzled, then deeply shocked to discover that, over time, the insulation tape had migrated a good few metres from the centre point!
The comments in the article referenced above about "a pen sold by Beal" for marking ropes are rather worrying. But I'm going to stay rather skeptical about the article itself, I think. Firstly, because as far as I know, what Beal produce isn't really a pen (although I can see how it could be described as such), and secondly because I can't find direct evidence of what the (unknown) author is quoting about the "pen" weakening the rope. Seems to me unlikely that Beal would continue to market a product specifically for ropes that any tests had shown could compromise the integrity of a rope by 50%! Or have Beal sued Mammut for making such a claim perhaps? Can anybody find direct evidence of Mammut's report? Seriously. I'd be interested.
I've been using the Beal rope marker product on my ropes for years now...so let's say I have a vested interest in hoping the article/Mammut have got it wrong. As another poster commented, if you put too much of the stuff on, it does make the rope incredibly stiff, so I just put a couple of lines on.
Incidentally, I used to use insulation tape to mark the middle but gave up rather abruptly: one day I had to thread the rope for an abseil through a closed loop at the anchor and decided to thread one end, then gather up coils starting from the ends (as you would do if there was nothing marking the middle), rather than simply pulling one end through until I reached the insulation tape marking the middle. This should have meant that the last coil would contain the mid-point of the rope, complete with insulation tape marker. I was rather puzzled, then deeply shocked to discover that, over time, the insulation tape had migrated a good few metres from the centre point!
In reply to Kean:
I have a Beal Rope Marker, it is a small bottle with a medium length neck, at the end of which is a cylindrical roller which acts in much the same way as the ball in a ballpoint pen, I don't think it misleading to call it a pen, I can't think of a better name myself.
I haven't been able to find a copy of the test that Mammut is supposed to have done, but Google shows the results are cited in many posts on climbing fora. After Mammut released their results Beal reportedly changed their packaging to list a number of brands of rope the marker was safe to use on, Mammut is not in the list.
I have a Beal Rope Marker, it is a small bottle with a medium length neck, at the end of which is a cylindrical roller which acts in much the same way as the ball in a ballpoint pen, I don't think it misleading to call it a pen, I can't think of a better name myself.
I haven't been able to find a copy of the test that Mammut is supposed to have done, but Google shows the results are cited in many posts on climbing fora. After Mammut released their results Beal reportedly changed their packaging to list a number of brands of rope the marker was safe to use on, Mammut is not in the list.
In reply to EddInaBox:
Nothing on Beal website, but this lends weight to your argument:
"Please note, this marker is recommended for Beal®, Blue Water, Edelweiss, Lanex, Maxim, PMI and Roca ropes These manufacturers have tested this product on their ropes. Other rope manufacturers have not tested this product and Beal does not endorse its use on other brands."
Taken from a website selling the rope marker...hmmm...perhaps I'll go for the fancy stitching option...and a new rope...
And this found on another forum from 2013, apparently quoting directly from Beal website, although link is now dead:
"Only for use on the ropes listed on the container :
Beal - Blue Water - Edelweiss - Camp - Lanex - Maxim by New England - Millet - PMI - Roca."
http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/pro-ropemarker-access.php
Perhaps they've changed the spec of the ink now, which is why they no longer include the warning on their website?
Nothing on Beal website, but this lends weight to your argument:
"Please note, this marker is recommended for Beal®, Blue Water, Edelweiss, Lanex, Maxim, PMI and Roca ropes These manufacturers have tested this product on their ropes. Other rope manufacturers have not tested this product and Beal does not endorse its use on other brands."
Taken from a website selling the rope marker...hmmm...perhaps I'll go for the fancy stitching option...and a new rope...
And this found on another forum from 2013, apparently quoting directly from Beal website, although link is now dead:
"Only for use on the ropes listed on the container :
Beal - Blue Water - Edelweiss - Camp - Lanex - Maxim by New England - Millet - PMI - Roca."
http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/pro-ropemarker-access.php
Perhaps they've changed the spec of the ink now, which is why they no longer include the warning on their website?
In reply to eduardo:
BD tests didn't load the marked section over an edge which is one of the conditions where other tests have found a significant weakening. Also the other tests I saw have shown a reduction in the number of UIAA falls than can be held.
In this test the knots were still weaker than the amount of weakening the marker put in to the system when it was tensile tested to failure. Doesn't mean it didn't weaken the rope though. In the real world of lead climbing applications ropes do not break because the tensile force on the rope is enough to break the rope at the knot, they break because of a sharp edge, or because chemicals have effected the rope or a mixture of the two.
That said I don't think there has been a documented case of a rope failure due to using a marker to mark the middle of the rope. I've done it in the past and continued using the rope after finding out this has an adverse effect, but tbh I wouldn't do it again. However there are bigger things to worry about and you could argue the risk of an accident because the middle of the rope wasn't marked is also increased.
BD tests didn't load the marked section over an edge which is one of the conditions where other tests have found a significant weakening. Also the other tests I saw have shown a reduction in the number of UIAA falls than can be held.
In this test the knots were still weaker than the amount of weakening the marker put in to the system when it was tensile tested to failure. Doesn't mean it didn't weaken the rope though. In the real world of lead climbing applications ropes do not break because the tensile force on the rope is enough to break the rope at the knot, they break because of a sharp edge, or because chemicals have effected the rope or a mixture of the two.
That said I don't think there has been a documented case of a rope failure due to using a marker to mark the middle of the rope. I've done it in the past and continued using the rope after finding out this has an adverse effect, but tbh I wouldn't do it again. However there are bigger things to worry about and you could argue the risk of an accident because the middle of the rope wasn't marked is also increased.
Post edited at 10:44
I use the Beal marker ink. I temporarily place masking tape to limit the inked area , then apply the ink, THEN wipe off excess. Leave to dry, then remove masking tape.
Wiping off excess retains flexiblity and prevents ink from seaping into the core.
I mark centre and 10m from each end on my winter ropes.
Wiping off excess retains flexiblity and prevents ink from seaping into the core.
I mark centre and 10m from each end on my winter ropes.
In reply to sbattams:
Bog standard electrical tape has done it for me for nearly 50 years...obviously replaced several times during the course of a season. Low tech I know, but perfectly adequate
Bog standard electrical tape has done it for me for nearly 50 years...obviously replaced several times during the course of a season. Low tech I know, but perfectly adequate
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In reply to gethin_allen:
Thanks. That was all I could think of doing as well. Just wondered if anyone had any other ways they'd done it before.
Thanks. That was all I could think of doing as well. Just wondered if anyone had any other ways they'd done it before.
In reply to Greenbanks:
Yes, it works. But it doesn't survive either being abseiled over, or being used with magic plates, very well.
As a paranoid thought: since random adhesives are not supposed to be use on helmets etc., are you sure that the adhesive on the electrical tape is safe for the rope? If a bit of ink can degrade the rope strength by 50%, ...
> Bog standard electrical tape has done it for me ...
Yes, it works. But it doesn't survive either being abseiled over, or being used with magic plates, very well.
As a paranoid thought: since random adhesives are not supposed to be use on helmets etc., are you sure that the adhesive on the electrical tape is safe for the rope? If a bit of ink can degrade the rope strength by 50%, ...
In reply to sbattams:
Think I must be one of the few here who has just used a permanent marker to make a few lines and gone back to climbing. Lot of paranoia in this thread over something that's really no big deal.
Think I must be one of the few here who has just used a permanent marker to make a few lines and gone back to climbing. Lot of paranoia in this thread over something that's really no big deal.
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In reply to sbattams:
There seem to be two separate issues up for discussion here:
Is it OK to use a non-specified marker pen to middle-mark my rope?
The answer will always be no, because a rope manufacturer cannot test every product on the market to see if it damages the rope. What happens if a product is tested as safe, but then the formulation changes without them knowing? It's pretty unlikely that a small amount of ink on the sheath will cause a rope to fail, but......take the risk yourself by all means but don't expect anyone else to stick their neck out and say "sure, it'll be fine!"
About the Beal rope marker tests - firstly, I'm not sure if the tests done were done using the UIAA sharp edge test protocol, but that protocol is defunct now because the results were too variable. In other words, it was an unreliable test and I wouldn't set any great store on it. Also, there was a rumour going around that in the tests, so much ink was impregnated into the rope that it lost much of its elasticity on a local level. What I do know is that all dynamic ropes are made from pretty much chemically identical raw materials, so if something is safe for one rope, it should also be safe on another. Again, due to the "not sticking one's neck out" principle, you'll only get a manufacturer saying the marker is safe on products they have tested, because they won't know if another brand decide to use a new material without telling them.
Before anyone complains about manufacturers being overly nesh about these things, remember that messing it up can potentially mean jail and/or the closure of a business supporting many families. C'est la vie!
In summary, use an authorised rope marker if your rope brand allows it. If your brand says no, a rope marker is probably less risky than any old marker pen but this is at your own risk and of course cannot be recommended.
There seem to be two separate issues up for discussion here:
Is it OK to use a non-specified marker pen to middle-mark my rope?
The answer will always be no, because a rope manufacturer cannot test every product on the market to see if it damages the rope. What happens if a product is tested as safe, but then the formulation changes without them knowing? It's pretty unlikely that a small amount of ink on the sheath will cause a rope to fail, but......take the risk yourself by all means but don't expect anyone else to stick their neck out and say "sure, it'll be fine!"
About the Beal rope marker tests - firstly, I'm not sure if the tests done were done using the UIAA sharp edge test protocol, but that protocol is defunct now because the results were too variable. In other words, it was an unreliable test and I wouldn't set any great store on it. Also, there was a rumour going around that in the tests, so much ink was impregnated into the rope that it lost much of its elasticity on a local level. What I do know is that all dynamic ropes are made from pretty much chemically identical raw materials, so if something is safe for one rope, it should also be safe on another. Again, due to the "not sticking one's neck out" principle, you'll only get a manufacturer saying the marker is safe on products they have tested, because they won't know if another brand decide to use a new material without telling them.
Before anyone complains about manufacturers being overly nesh about these things, remember that messing it up can potentially mean jail and/or the closure of a business supporting many families. C'est la vie!
In summary, use an authorised rope marker if your rope brand allows it. If your brand says no, a rope marker is probably less risky than any old marker pen but this is at your own risk and of course cannot be recommended.
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
"http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/05/frequent-spicy-meals-linked-to..."
Of course there could be chemical interactions between the after treatments on the yarns and the markers that haven't been tested for or indeed the original marker used and the new one you are applying over the top!
"http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/05/frequent-spicy-meals-linked-to..."
Of course there could be chemical interactions between the after treatments on the yarns and the markers that haven't been tested for or indeed the original marker used and the new one you are applying over the top!
In reply to sbattams:
I've used the Beal rope marker to mark Beal ropes and Mammut ropes and I'm not dead yet... Since ropes don't ever fail from overloading, I'm not really worried about a 50% reduction in strength under rare conditions (ropes exactly loaded over the mark) although I do avoid having the mark(s) through the crab when abseiling on a halved rope. After all, putting a knot in a sling weakens it by 50% and we still do that?
I've used the Beal rope marker to mark Beal ropes and Mammut ropes and I'm not dead yet... Since ropes don't ever fail from overloading, I'm not really worried about a 50% reduction in strength under rare conditions (ropes exactly loaded over the mark) although I do avoid having the mark(s) through the crab when abseiling on a halved rope. After all, putting a knot in a sling weakens it by 50% and we still do that?
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I might be missing something, but what do you mean by 'exactly loaded over the mark'? Surely if you have over half the rope out, if the leader falls then the inked section is being loaded. It doesn't have to be 'exactly' anywhere in particular, just on the live rope. Or am I missing something?
> Since ropes don't ever fail from overloading, I'm not really worried about a 50% reduction in strength under rare conditions (ropes exactly loaded over the mark)
I might be missing something, but what do you mean by 'exactly loaded over the mark'? Surely if you have over half the rope out, if the leader falls then the inked section is being loaded. It doesn't have to be 'exactly' anywhere in particular, just on the live rope. Or am I missing something?
In reply to sbattams:
This doesn't have a warning any more...
http://www.beal-planet.com/2014/anglais/accessoires-rope-marker.html
This doesn't have a warning any more...
http://www.beal-planet.com/2014/anglais/accessoires-rope-marker.html
In reply to NottsRich:
Some previous tests showed that ropes marked were weaker in two ways:
- Less UIAA falls before failure
- Weaker when loaded over the marked section of rope
Some previous tests showed that ropes marked were weaker in two ways:
- Less UIAA falls before failure
- Weaker when loaded over the marked section of rope
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Thanks, so it's 'exactly loaded' in the test scenario, not a climbing scenario.
...to 14% reduced risk of death.
I though the risk of death was 100%. If you can reduce that by even 1% by eating spicy foods then I'm all for it!
Thanks, so it's 'exactly loaded' in the test scenario, not a climbing scenario.
> "http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/05/frequent-spicy-meals-linked-to-human-longevity"
...to 14% reduced risk of death.
I though the risk of death was 100%. If you can reduce that by even 1% by eating spicy foods then I'm all for it!
Post edited at 16:25
In reply to NottsRich:
I read that earlier - unfortunately all bets are off if you mix with beer :-/ You will still die (eventually) unfortunately
I read that earlier - unfortunately all bets are off if you mix with beer :-/ You will still die (eventually) unfortunately
Post edited at 16:27
In reply to NottsRich:
Refers to a specific test where the rope is loaded over an edge.
> ... what do you mean by 'exactly loaded over the mark'? ...
Refers to a specific test where the rope is loaded over an edge.
Post edited at 16:42
Marking pens are fine to use on ropes as long as they are water based laundry markers. Years ago solvent based markers were the norm. Some of the solvents used in these old pens could reduce the strength of the sheath strands marked. These days most pens are water based so this is not as much of an issue as in years passed. We recommend a Sharpie “rub a dub” laundry marking pen.
ttps://bluewaterropes.com/faqs/
Water based sharpie marker.
Post edited at 19:40
In reply to Removed User:
I agree - lots of paranoia
We'll be discussing top-roping ethics next
Get a climbing life😁
I agree - lots of paranoia
We'll be discussing top-roping ethics next
Get a climbing life😁
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In reply to Scott_vzr:
I also found that Blue Water info when I was looking into this. I forgot to mention it in this review http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=7446 but the Roca Free rope doesn't have a middle marker so I was investigating the possibilities. I asked Alpkit if a water based pen like that Sharpie would be ok, they checked with Roca in Spain and Roca said yes - a water based marker like Blue Water suggests is fine for me to use. They are going to be adding middle markers to their ropes from next year though.
I also found that Blue Water info when I was looking into this. I forgot to mention it in this review http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=7446 but the Roca Free rope doesn't have a middle marker so I was investigating the possibilities. I asked Alpkit if a water based pen like that Sharpie would be ok, they checked with Roca in Spain and Roca said yes - a water based marker like Blue Water suggests is fine for me to use. They are going to be adding middle markers to their ropes from next year though.
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In reply to Greenbanks:
Strange comment. What's wrong with trying to establish the facts of the matter?
> I agree - lots of paranoia
> Get a climbing life😁
> Get a climbing life😁
Strange comment. What's wrong with trying to establish the facts of the matter?
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In reply to Rob Parsons:
This is UKC, we don't want facts getting in the way of a good old fashioned flame war!
This is UKC, we don't want facts getting in the way of a good old fashioned flame war!
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In reply to Greenbanks:
Oh so you're one of the lycra-wearing, redlight-jumping, fourabreast-riding, zebracrossing-ignoring, pavementuser-terrorizing two wheel brigade, you deserve to be squashed flat under the wheels of a 4x4.
> Let's ride!
Oh so you're one of the lycra-wearing, redlight-jumping, fourabreast-riding, zebracrossing-ignoring, pavementuser-terrorizing two wheel brigade, you deserve to be squashed flat under the wheels of a 4x4.
In reply to EddInaBox:
No - I've been at it for years and get a bit tired of some of the stuff that comes on here which seems to get in the way of what we're all about
No big deal - and no offence ( still less any of the stuff you're implying)
No - I've been at it for years and get a bit tired of some of the stuff that comes on here which seems to get in the way of what we're all about
No big deal - and no offence ( still less any of the stuff you're implying)
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