UKC

I've stuck this in destinations as I think it affects most people heading out from UK to European destinations by road.

I drove over the bridge a couple of weeks ago. I was amazed there were no toll booths. I clocked the suggestion that I had to take responsibility for logging in and paying on-line. I got on the ferry and had no internet for the next two weeks.

As soon as I got back I logged on and paid for two crossings. But I still got a PCN in the post demanding £73. Included in the envelope with another letter saying if I paid up I didn't need to pay £73. And I couldn't use the payment I had already made.

I can understand the economic drivers - sack toll booth operators and make the clients do your admin. - but I am really pissed off by this new system. And think there are quite a few legal holes in the process. How come I don't know the fee before I hit the crossing? How come I have no access to terms and conditions before I hit the crossing? What happens to those who have no internet access? Do they pursue tourists and foreign truckers or do they only hit UK targets?

It sucks. In my humble opinion,

In reply to Andy Say:

It does suck, I think that legally they have to have an appeals procedure so I'd use it.

In reply to Andy Say:

This nearly caught us out at Christmas but we went south after 22.00 and only needed to pay on the return, so posted the following warning:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=605956

The general consensus of those living in the south was that they knew about it and us northerners should have known about it by magic.

Paid in advance by credit card over t'internet and didn't have any queues where the toll booths used to be when coming south this time, so it didn't suck as much. Fingers crossed for the journey home next week.

In reply to Andy Say:

Yes, it is a bit mean and crafty. Caught us at xmas. Had no idea about about the system, and all the approach signs were about congestion charges or something, so we thought the online thing must be something to do with traveling from there into London. Which we weren't doing. Also, having traveled past there only once before, we had some memory of charges only applying at certain times, or in one direction or something. So when no toll booths were open we assumed all was well and forgot about it.

Till the letters arrived for fines about a month later back in Scotland.... WHAT!!!! I have no idea how they think people from outside the London area, let alone from outside the country are suppose to know about it, or have the means to easily pay it. We have no mobile Internet. Imagine arriving as a tourist from France...

Can only be grateful that they did have a means to waive the fines if you paid by a certain time. And have now stuck a big note on our travel gear lists to remind us to pay in advance.

Sometimes things in this country are not as brilliant as some people like to think.

In reply to Andy Say:

It stung me on the way and way back from Font last Easter. As you say, there are very poor signs used and I was surprised everyone was just going through. There were a lot of road works at the toll booths so I assumed they must be closed to stop tailbacks.

I didn't have to a pay a fine when I logged in to pay though. Just the normal fee.

In reply to Andy Say:
I think it's a good idea badly implemented, to be honest (as is not uncommon for the UK government). It's clearly more convenient for those who use it often, but for those who don't they could have done with implementing a park-up-briefly-and-pay layby/area that you could choose to go through.

In reply to Andy Say:

First time I drove through, I noted the many signs and paid up same day. I always thought it was a motorist's responsibility to see and act upon road signs.
There weren't that many booth operators, it was mostly self service, cash or card, there were a few around in case.
And the system is much faster getting through, saving loads of time and carbon.

Someone told me about it last time I went to Font so I paid in advance which was much easier and quicker. The time before when they still had the booths we had no English money on us so had to pay in Euros and it was all a bit stressful. I can't remember what the signage is like now so maybe if it's your first time crossing in a while it's easy to get confused and miss the payment and get stung, but the system is much better now in my opinion.

In reply to Andy Say:

It sucks. And i told them that when i phoned to pay. Only found out about the fine after i returned from France. Bloody stupid system.

In reply to Andy Say:

I was lucky and checked but I agree there are no obvious signs or charges.

In reply to Fredt:



Are you going for smug post of the year? Coming back I knew the score and was looking carefully to see how it was signed, and it wasn't in any obvious way.

In reply to Andy Say:

I nearly got nadged by it on the first day, before christmas. It took several goes to get through and pay. It was signed well enough at the bridge itself, but there was bugger all advance notice outside of the great metropolis.

In reply to Fredt:

Maybe there are more signs now than when we went through in February. We saw one sign, which was after the point at which you were already committed to using the crossing and was in amongst all the roadside clutter of the roadworks. It would have been easy to miss and impossible to see if there had been an HGV to our left at the wrong moment (maybe there were other signs which we were unable to see for this very reason?).

Given that it is one of the main routes out of the country and that a lot of people will have no internet access once they get to the port, the system doesn't give a lot of people any opportunity to pay within the deadline.

We received a penalty notice months later. It demanded £70 but acknowledged the inadequate system and said they would let us off if we paid them the original £2.50 within a few days. I don't know if they are still letting people off that easily or if they have hardened their stance?

With sufficient publicity or if they allowed the charge to be paid up to 3 weeks after the crossing (giving most people enough time to get back to the UK to pay) it would be a big improvement on the old system.

In reply to Andy Say:

There's been signs everywhere for the past God knows how long, and I don't just mean in London. Even yesterday there was a big notice on the M40, a long way North of London, at silly o' clock at night when the charges don't even apply anyway.

One way of not getting caught out by forgetting to pay is opening an auto-pay account. I forgot to pay the other week (just plain forgot, despite knowing), and was saved by said account despite there being no balance in it at the time.

In reply to tehmarks:
I don't understand why they are faffing about with PAYG balances when the vast majority of motorists could simply attach a credit/debit card to an account and have it debited each time.

Even TfL have realised that acting as a pseudo-bank is hassle.

Neil

In reply to Andy Say:

I am registered on http://www.dartsave.co.uk/ it saved me when we were in austria last week. As they pay the fee and you pay them back within 30 days.

Steve

In reply to Neil Williams:

It's mostly the same system they have with the congestion charge auto-pay - so possibly they're reusing things in the implementation behind-the-scenes? It is pretty rubbish though!

In reply to Andy Say:

I've not been over the bridge, but when driving on the M25 in Essex I saw a sign saying there was a new system and to "search Dart Charge", and thanked my lucky stars that elderly family members who wouldn't understand that instruction were also too timid to drive on motorways and big newfangled bridges.

In reply to Andy Say:

Came back from France via the Dartford Tunnel. We got held up at the start of the tunnel whilst they escorted a large/wide load through so had the opportunity to "read" the signs and paid when we got home.

Not the most intuitive system though and it would be useful if there were pay booths, even self-service, at the next service area.

In reply to Andy Say:

Traveling down to France luckily it was after 10pm so didn't have to pay a fee.

Coming home, we spotted a grand total of 2 signs telling us to visit the website to pay the toll - but no indication of the fee! Back home logged in to find the fee page claiming it was £2, but when we clicked to pay they charged us £3???

Great idea for those living locally as will cut down on queues, but as others have said a nightmare for those who have no experience of the system (or who don't have internet access!). As others have said some form of "pay as you go system whuld be worth the queues for once-a-year users - or at least a FREE internet access point at the tunnel (and ferry) departures where you can pay the toll before leaving the UK.

Also I wonder how many non-UK nationals who just ignore the fee (signs are only in English) and get away without paying.

In reply to Gone:

Is this actually one of the first confirmations that anyone who will not use the Internet is basically shutting themselves out of normal daily life?

Neil

In reply to tehmarks:

The M40. 'A long way North of London'. Ho, Ho, Bloody Ho. Reset your compass pal.

Mind I think they are realising that the implementation has been totally shite as I did see a motorway illuminated sign just north of Leicester today warning me about changes.

Didn't tell me what the tolls were or how to pay them though. How come you only know what the toll is once your are PAST the crossing?

In reply to Jenny C:

Believe it or not I was so tuned up I felt an information request coming on. How many PCN's have been sent to non-UK addresses? And if none does this mean that the toll is really only applied to GB residents?

And for Neill Williams - it's not 'will not use the internet'! What do I do if I'm abroad for two weeks with no data roaming?

What do I do if I live in an area where I have no 'hard' land line and crap dongle reception?

If the christmas fairy wants to give me free broadband then OK. Otherwise I would like an alternative way to live, ta.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I paid over the phone from an internet free YHA

In reply to Andy Say:


Visit an Internet cafe or a public library. Find free Wifi (it's not hard). Pay in advance. Use data roaming anyway, as it's not half as expensive as it used to be - most networks will offer it for a couple of quid a day now. Lots of options.

(It should be noted that I don't fully agree with the principle and think there should be another way to pay such as machines in service stations dedicated to the purpose, but it's a point that is starting to enter society more than a little)


You've driven over the Dartford bridge. There are not many such areas near there, so it follows that to do so you've driven through an area without "crap dongle reception".


If that is your view, most likely you will, be that right or wrong, increasingly shut yourself out of vast swathes of public services and society.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


That's not inevitable; it's something we can and should resist. There should always be reasonable alternatives.

(I see you 'work in IT.' So do I, as it happens. That doesn't mean I buy all the hype though ...)

In reply to Andy Say:


I saw an illuminated sign on Sunday on the M11 somewhere round Cambridge, which is something like 60 miles away ("a long way north..."). Not many toll bridges are announced over an hour before you get there. Also posters above the urinals at service stations, and it was in the national news back last autumn.

I get the "I don't have internet on my phone" criticism (although all you need to know is the number, and you can phone). But this is vastly preferable to queuing through toll barriers, no?

In reply to climbwhenready:

Well, they *could* have kept a few toll booths for those who prefer to queue, but had a "go past and pay later" lane?

Neil

In reply to Andy Say:

Well I think it's rubbish - as someone that doesn't live in the UK it was all very confusing when I went through a couple of months ago - who did the charge apply to? How much was it? How does one avoid it? None of those questions were answered by the signage. I will wait and see what happens, I was in my Guernsey-registered car so it'll be interesting to see if they send me a request for payment.

In reply to Andy Say:

Relatively speaking, 100 miles is a long way north (ok, northwest) of London. Put another way, I certainly wouldn't want to walk it!

In reply to Andy Say:

I wonder if they've realised there are issues around communication, as they've started putting messages on the m1 and A1 through Yorkshire. Certainly never saw them at the time the charge was launched. I wonder if there was some metropolitan blindness to the possibility of travellers from outside the M25 using it?

In reply to toad:

Do people really, genuinely, actually believe that people in London don't understand that people from all parts of the country will be using the Dartford crossing?

Or is it more likely that you didn't pay attention to or missed the considerable publicity because you, yourself, didn't think you'd be using it any time soon?

It seems to me they've acted reasonably with promotional material all over the motorway network in service stations (I've seen it as far North as Stafford), a nationwide news campaign and a transition period whereby they aren't enforcing fines.

What is UNreasonable is that there is a charge in the first place. The cost of the bridge was covered many years ago.

In reply to XXXX:

I've never heard of it and didn't see any signs driving over it. I live in Newcastle, not Stafford. Absolute scam.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Did you get fined?

In reply to Neil Williams:


I haven't seen an internet cafe in Europe for about 10 years. Free wifi is everywhere in France. Secure free wifi is not.

In reply to XXXX:

It's not really a question of how far north it is advertised on urinals that matters. Most of us ignore things that aren't of immediate relevance, particularly advertising. What is needed is several clear signs a few miles before the crossing saying
"Toll ahead, £2, you must pay on line". The M6 toll, for example, is perfectly clear and gives amply warning for people to leave before the tolls are imposed. Cryptic "C" signs with no price on aren't sufficient.

In reply to MG:

They are there. You're just not looking.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-signage-at-the-dartford-crossing-unv...

Sadly, google streetview hasn't been updated yet.

People have to take some responsibility for themselves. Short of knocking on everyone's door and holding their hands, what more can be done?

The C is not cryptic. It means congestion charge. I'm pretty sure roadsigns are in the driving test.

Of course the M6 toll is perfect, because it's up north and none of this southern rubbish. Maybe people from up north can't actually read which is why you all stand on the left on escalators. <--look

In reply to XXXX:

There is no price, there nothing saying you have to pay on line


Put up a clear sign.


Right, not a bridge toll!



Don't be childish - it just has clear signs. And it's in the Midlands.

In reply to MG:

"Dart Charge find us online, pay by midnight tomorrow"
I guess a price could be included on all the signs, but it is different depending on who you are, what you're driving, when you're driving, if you're local etc... so instead of changing the signs all the time, just get people to look it up. It works for the congestion charge, which is used very successfully.

It's not a toll, it's a congestion charge. As I said, the bridge is paid for.

I thought the UK had London (which includes all of the south east) which is awful and the North, which is amazing. Anway, for me the M6 Toll is 3 hours drive North of my house. I reckon that's sufficiently up North for me.

In reply to tehmarks:

Mark; my apologies my original reply to you was far too brusque. A sign of how tuned up I am about this?

Neil. You're just being awkward, right? I cross the bridge and I am then obliged to pull off somewhere in Kent to find a hot-spot. Or, after I've caught my ferry, remember that I must go out of my way to find internet so I can pay. And, trust me, when you're wild camping in the Vanoise internet cafes are in short supply.

I guess at bottom I can't help but wonder where else I would be provided with a service, then told how much I must pay (£3 each way in my case - but I didn't know that) once I had engaged with the payment system that offered me no alternatives ways of paying other than going online.

It just sucks!

And I can't help but wonder, again, if the penalty charges are going to be a major income stream. And if they will only be applied to UK residents?

In reply to XXXX:



Irk. I'm not dumb. I DO look at the internet and, occasionally, the television. I drive around quite a lot. However I don't frequent service station toilets. The first I knew about the new system was some confusing sign as I approached the bridge and some slight shock, and bewilderment, when I realised that the toll booths had gone.

And I headed towards Dover with a vague sense that I was obliged to do something on the internet.

In reply to Andy Say:

No problem. It did amuse me somewhat, given I'm originally from 'way up North'

In reply to Andy Say:

I remember someone I used to know, who had to cross the regularly, raging at the queues on the crossing. If you had the choice between sitting in a lengthy queue for a toll booth (hypothetically left open for the non-organized) or flying past and sorting it out on your phone later, which would you do? If the latter, then surely the current system is fine...

In reply to Andy Say:

What's confusing about "pay by midnight tomorrow?"

Even so, the net result is, you paid for your crossing and didn't get fined. No biggie.

In reply to Andy Say:
Drove to Spain in July and didn't notice the signs coming over (probably because it was dark).. just assumed we'd pay on the way pack as there were no toll booths.

However noticed the signs on the way back.. made an extra payment just to be on the safe side but received a penalty charge (PCN) a few days later.
It was no drama, the PCN explained it was a new system and I may have not been aware of it and that if the standard toll was settled within 14 days there would be no further charge. Phoned up, explained I made an extra payment and the charge was dropped.. nice and easy.

Can't see what all the fuss is about, if it saves queueing in the long run then surly its a good thing (even for a northerner who only ventures that was once every couple of years)

In reply to SDM:

Any wifi is sufficiently secure if you're using an SSL-encrypted website to make an online purchase. They can intercept your encrypted traffic but there's nothing they can actually do with it.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Are we all really certain about that?

1. As you will know, there have been several high-profile security problems discovered in SSL/TLS over the past year or two. Provided *all* clients and servers are patched *immediately*, the identified problems are addressed. But no doubt more exist - and the bad guys will find them.

2. There are bound to be compromised CAs, and, owing to the number of CA root certificates embedded in all browers, there's an obvious risk.

3. MITM attacks like sslstrip which subvert the entire mechanism are possible.

Etc. etc.

I think in practice you'd be unlucky to get caught out - there are easier ways for the bad guys to get what they want - but attacks against SSL/TLS are certainly possible, and the easiest way to mount them against the general public would be via a compromised wifi system.

So it pays to be sufficiently paranoid.

In reply to Rob Parsons:


I disagree; it's so unlikely that it would be like fitting bars to all your windows when living in a reasonable area just because there's a very small chance someone might break in.

SSL/TLS is more secure than telephoning or writing a letter to your bank (both completely unencrypted), even if used over an insecure connection. Not just a bit more secure, but orders of magnitude more secure.

Neil

In reply to XXXX:

got a notice to pay £2.50. Fair enough with that.

In reply to Andy Say:

It said £2.50 for a campervan then they or it charged me £3 and the 'help' site wouldn't function properly. I tried to do something about it but it was just impossible. I've given up

In reply to Andy Say:

Most people have internet on their phones, and have to wait to get a ferry at Dover. Just pay whilst you sit in the ferry queue and its done.

In reply to marsbar:

Will you lend me your phone at the terminal to do that then, thanks

In reply to BruceM:

If you were parked next to me and you asked nicely, then yes, I would.

In reply to Andy Say:

I know this may not help, but after similar off-pissing experiences we have decided to go clockwise round the M25 (when coming home, that is) and then take the M40 to Brum. With all the speed limits on the M1 at the moment it turned out just as quick.

In reply to Andy Say:

My tax disc renewal had a Dartford Crossing changes leaflet in it last year explaining the change and how to use it. Maybe you just threw it away as junk?

In reply to Toerag:

Damm tax exile!!