UKC

Hello All,

I have a question that, at least at first glance, I cannot get a satisfactory answer to. What is the best (read that how you will - least fuss, safest, lightest etc.) method of storing your trad rack within your rucksack when cragging or approaching an alpine route. I am only a recent starter in all of this malarkey (a couple of years under my belt) and my rack has started to get a bit ungainly for my current method of in-bag storage - namely I use an old nylon sling, knotted in the middle, and rack the pro gear on one side (cams, nuts etc.) on one side, and everything else (quickdraws, slings, cords runners etc.) on the other, after which I dump the whole lot into my bag on top of the ropes. I am starting to become wary of the damage this may cause to my gear and wondering if there is a better way?

The only 'bespoke' solution I have seen is something like this:

https://www.mtntools.com/cat/mt/necess/mt_caroll.htm

Seems like a logical solution, even if it is another piece of gear to schlep around. Any thoughts here from the community?

Regards from the North,

/Sanguine

In reply to sanguine:

Personally, I don't even bother with the bit of rope - I find a rack takes up less space in the bag if its left to "roam free". Pack your harness on the top, put it on and rack up as you remove items from the bag.

For point things (i.e. ice screws) I leave them in an ice screw wrap until I put them on the harness, similar, but smaller, to what you've linked to above.

In reply to sanguine:
One 60cm nylon sling for the protection and other for slings, QDs and so on.

Just remember to take 'em out from the sack when you get home (to dry) if it has been even remotely moist.

Oh, and an Ikea bag, to place both slings (plus shoes & harness) before crammin' it into the bag. That way you'll have 2 "bags" to keep stuff organised at the crag.

For a single rope, bigger Ikea bag works like a charm. No coiling, or what ever.

In reply to sanguine:

I've heard it said that just stuffing gear into your sac can lead to cam cables getting twisted round other gear and lead to broken strands. That said, I tend to stuff my gear into the sac (on an old bandolier - but a sling would work as well) and, yes, I do get broken strands occasionally which is a real pain. Wild Country used to sell a kit for repairing these but I understand they've stopped doing this.

Several of my climbing friends pack their gear into an old harness bag or similar which seems to work well.

Martin

In reply to sanguine:

I use 3 of those small light textile supermarket bags (currently using co-op in fetching green). Easy to drop gear into and then slide easily into rucksack.

I use 1 for cams, 1 for hexes and slings, 1 for nuts and quckdraws. Makes racking up easier as well as I can work through each bag in turn. The bags are fairly tough, but the loose weave makes them breathable which helps with drying as well.

Harness goes on top, shoes are stuffed vertical to stop gear poking out against my back!

In reply to sanguine:

I use a cheap boot bag like this and put it in the bottom of my rucksack:
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/hi-gear-go-outdoors-boot-bag-p143625

This is the first picture I found but I've seen this design in various shops, usually without a logo on it. I put my 9 cams in first, then two and a half sets of nuts, hexes, nutkey, screwgates, twisted up slings and other assorted bits and bobs on top, everything is a snug fit so doesn't move around and get tangled. It doesn't have room for my quickdraws but since they don't have pointy or sharp bits to wear holes in my rucksack I just drop them in on top of the boot bag.

In reply to sanguine:
in the Alps, travelling light... how many cams are you likely to carry anyway? The only bit of kit I pack with thought and wrap up in an my crampon bag are ice screws, so they don't damage the bag, slings, waterproofs etc.. I try to avoid carrying anything extra that doesn't directly do a job outside the bag at all. If I have many screws, then they'll have a crampon bag of their own, everything else can roam free. I do clip all extenders together, the same with gear, just to speed up extraction and gearing up time.

Edit - but I am little obsessive about weight, having cut all the un-used straps etc. from my normal alpine bag etc..

In reply to sanguine:
I like to be a little more organised. This is what I do:
DMM Torque nuts Sizes 1 and 2 on BD Oval wiregate
Rocks 7,8,9,10 on one BD Oval wiregate
Rocks 1,2,3,4,5,6 on BD Oval wiregate
Micro wires 1,2,3,4,5,6 on BD Oval wiregate

Additional for long multi-pitches pitches at my limit:
Lightweight rocks 1, 2,3,4,5,6 on BD Oval wiregate
DMM Offsets on BD Oval wiregate

All of these go in a micromesh bag so lay flat in the rucksack.

I have a set of BD Camalots up to size 3 that I keep in fairly rigid Grivel a crampon bag as I find the the wires need some protection. My last set of cams were just slung in the rucksack and the wires became mangled. Apart from the biggest, size 3, I rack these 2 to a krab. As this was a huge investment I decided they deserved better care. I have seen people use Tupperware boxes. 10 x QD's, 4 x slingdraws plus 4 spare krabs are split between 2 x 60cm slings. 2 x 120cm slings, one huge HMS Screwgate and an Edelrid Slider krab complete the rack.

There is a gear loop inside my rucksack where I hang a DMM Pivot/HMS plus a "Bail Biner" with a maillon, a short 5mm prussik, nut extractor and a tiny Trango knife.

Ice screws go in a BD roll-up bag until ready for putting on the harness.

Al

In reply to ianstevens:

Agree with the 'maths' of roaming free, but do you not find it a hassle to rummage about for it all when you get to the destination?

In reply to HeMa:

I indeed do take em out when I get home and hang out in the basement. In the land of Ikea here, so I should really use them more - I have modified one for crampon storage, but perhaps I should look into employing them more.

In reply to Martin Hore:

I haven't had any gear breakage yet, and would be loath to make a repair that I could trust and would perhaps resort to replacement instead - perhaps a separate discussion point.

In reply to sanguine:

Mines all clipped on a loop of rope and then lobbed in my bag along with harness/shoes and rope
Not real organisation

In reply to summo:

True about the alpine option, and the question is perhaps more pertinent to cragging etc. "Light is Right" for sure in such circumstances - still debating cutting off the extra straps on my G12 crampons

In reply to sanguine:

they said about alpine cragging / approaches etc..


if it's worth doing at all, it's worth doing to the Nth degree to get the most benefit!!

In reply to GridNorth:

Some great detail here! Thank you for taking the time! I like the separation of the active pro, which seems to be a common running theme in these responses. Not sure about tupperware boxes though, as this would seem to be a bit inefficient - what do you think?

Excellent detail here though! Much obliged to you and all here as well

In reply to goose299:

Just like meself then Having any qualms about it or happy with it?

In reply to sanguine:

Been doing it like that for years and never been an issue

In reply to sanguine:
No problem, it's raining and talking about climbing is the next best thing

Well it's efficient at protecting the cams but it's a little overly rigid for me. I like the crampon bag, it has a little give in it so doesn't seem to take up so much space.

Al

In reply to sanguine:

My criteria for in rucksack rack storage is that it must be light weigh, flexible (to allow 'roaming' of gear to help it pack down), breathable, easy to extract and take up little space.

I get some grief for this, but I find an old pillow case makes for the perfect solution! Nuts go in first flat across the base, then quick draws, torque nuts and slings with cams on top. The whole lot then gets lowered into the base of my rucksack (keeps centre of gravity of sack low and gets the weight onto the hip belt).

Feel free to take the mickey..... All my climbing buddies do!

In reply to sanguine:

Open bag. Throw gear in. Insert foot to compress. Repeat until able to close. I got a good strong bag and my gear is fine. On arrival at crag- empty bag on floor, rack up, put spares back in bag. Done me fine for years

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

So you have never experienced a rucksack leaning to one side and bits sticking in your back as you plod up a long approach?

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

I compress the back of it flat after its closed

To be honest if its a long approach or a mountain day I would be more organised and take more care as I would use a better comfier lighter bag. But for general cragging I'm not bothered.

In reply to sanguine:

Personally I try to avoid extra bags and the time to unpack them and tend to have things ready to go straight from bag to harness as appropriate for planned route - thinking alpine but I tend to do the same for most cragging days. I would usually take out from rucksack and put on gear in roughly this order;

Helmet
Harness and chalk bag stuffed inside helmet ( when in rucksack not on climb! Glad I re read that. )
Cams ( these are usually laid near top of rucksack to avoid snagging as much as possible )
Rock shoes
Wires ready sorted to go on harness
Qds in groups ready to go on harness
Slings ready sorted
Belay device
Extractor, prussiks/knife, spare screwgates

Rope may be under top lid, inside rucksack, around shoulders or even given to mate.
This all sounds anal but what I'm trying to do is get climbing swiftly and efficiently as soon as possible. The K.I.S.S. principle. However, if doing several shorter routes in a day I would be more likely to lay the gear out to prune / choose equipment as appropriate.
In winter crampons are kept near top in crampon bag and ice screws are usually wrapped in old bar towel.

In reply to sanguine:

I clip everything to a 30cm sling that is a different colour to all my other tape. I then lift it up and grab it around where the tape of the QDs are. I use the crook of my arm if I am taking the kitchen sink out. I fold everything over at this point and plop it in the bag with the krabs and short tape against my back and all the protruding bits pointing out and arranged around this tidy area but the whole arrangement is pretty flat with little dead space. Everything sits so the wires on nuts aren't bent and the odd poke gets cams to lie in "chaotic neatness." The process probably takes all of 10 seconds. When unpacking I just grab the sling and shake. I don't think I have ever thought about it before which is odd, as for backpacking I am something of a "packing nazi". Probably the order you put it on the sling has some effect as to how neat it is. i.e. all the flattish stuff on one side and all the bumpy irregular stuff on the other. At the start of the day my harness is usually level with, and on the outside of the rack to keep it all neat.

Ice screws I have always carried wherever my crampons are and away from ropes and tapes in the bag.

In reply to sanguine:

In summer I tend to have everything clipped to 2 old 60 cm slings and then it all just gets dropped in the pack. I really don't see need for anything more than that. I do though tend to take an IKEA bag with me to just chuck stuff in as you pull things out of your pack. Started doing it ice climbing to stop things getting lost in the snow (particularly if trodden into the snow) but it works well in summer - maybe keeps dust off stuff but mainly it just stops you leaving things behind at the crag by mistake. I really haven't found a need for more than that in decades of climbing. I am a big fan of crag packs though for crag climbing (i.e. any where you don't need to climb with your pack) http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3906 Just makes packing and unpacking so much easier. I still use the Arcteryx pack from that review weekly, and my mate is still using the Grivel one just as much. They've both been very hardwearing.

For ice climbing in Finland where I would be going out every weekend and walk-ins were never a big issue, I'd use a crampon bag to stop them cutting the rucksack material if badly packed, and ice screw roll, just to keep screws sharp and their threads protected. But back in the UK for winter climbing where you are doing much more walking to get to the climbs I've tended to not use them just to keep weight to a minimum - just pack carefully the night before.

In reply to sanguine:

I use a heavy duty tool bag, (something like this - http://www.amazon.co.uk/HIGHLANDER-HEAVY-DUTY-MILITARY-OLIVE/dp/B003BBTN9O ) but only where weight is not really a concern.

In reply to sanguine:


Nope - I don't tend to carry much other stuff - for example I can do an alpine route with a night out on a 28L sack (with a partner I hasten to add!) so there's no a vast amount of space for stuff to get lost in. For luxury cragging/lazy packing, if I cant find something then I'll just tip the bag out.

The rest of the time I keep everything "well organised" in an acquired shopping basket. Sometimes when I'm feeling really lazy I'll just take that to the crag...

In reply to ianstevens:

Ha Ha. Total opposite to me. I'm anal when it comes to organising my gear but I wager I lose less than you do

Al

In reply to sanguine:


Perhaps I didn't explain well. I was only talking about replacing the trigger cables on Friends - not load bearing items. Has worked well for me.

Martin

In reply to sanguine:

I just stuff it all in the bag loose, tip it out at the crag, have done for 15 odd years and haven't damaged any of it to the point where it's needed replacement or repair*. Works for me and couldn't be simpler.

*my cams are c2000 vintage, in regular use and all on their original trigger wires in near perfect condition

jk

In reply to sanguine:

It's reassuring people spend so much time and effort storing their gear.

I can still be halfway up the first pitch before people have unpacked the ruck sack that contains the smaller bag that holds their rack, their plastic box with their friends in, their shoe/chalk bag, their rope bag, put the guidebook in it's little bag for the route.....

In reply to summo:

I can unpack and gear up pretty quickly, it's the packing up at the end of the day that takes me an age. Or so I'm told.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Not suggesting everyone who are bags in bag OCD fanatics are slow at gearing up, only many of them. We all seen them at the bottom of routes, bags scattered around, gear sitting on boulders all over the place and rope placed at the bottom of a classic route that won't see any action for a good 20 minutes.

Sounds like you just hold your climbing partner up getting to the café.

In reply to summo:

One of my pet hates is when people arrive and put down their gear in the same space that you have already got your own gear. I like to maintain some distance between others kit and mine. That's how gear gets picked up and taken by mistake so I never leave anything outside of my bag these days.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


would agree, at most crags I have my favourite spots, as they have flat ground, no seepage on bags etc.. or a good ledge to tuck the bag under if it's raining etc.. If they are in use, I'll move well off to the side somewhere, usually to gain some efficiency being close to the descent path so if I'm doing laps up and down, I don't need to deviate off much to grab a glug of water etc. as I pass by. I don't like being under other people's feet, or vice versa. Not really fair, mountains have plenty of room for all.

I do always have everything back in the bag, just in case we decide to move elsewhere, or climb the last route with the bags, before descending directly etc.. flexibility is key and having your kit look like a gear explosion doesn't usually help.

In reply to GridNorth:



I think I've lost about 5 bits of year in the past 8 years - all of which I abseiled from!

In reply to sanguine:

My (admittedly overengineered) solution is copied from an old Troll design bag. I have an old daisy chain that I clip my rack to in the loops that correspond to the gear loops on my harness starting from the centre of the daisy chain. I tie all my slings together in an overhand and clip them on too.
I clip the ends of the daisy chain together with a screwgate and pass that through a hole I've cut in the bottom of a big mesh alpkit stuff sack. I then pull the bag down over the hanging rack and cinch it closed.
This keeps all my gear together, is easy to pack and unpack, is loose enough in the bag that it moulds into rucksack gaps well and makes racking really quick and easy as it's already predone.
Because you're pulling a bag down over the kit rather than feeding it in, it works really efficiently and the bag weighs so little it's not huge ballache carrying it.

In reply to sanguine:

My system may be a little eccentric, but it works well for me. All pro barring flexi cams clipped to an old flat nylon sling, which goes into sack first, attached in size order for quick pick off. Then all extenders, (7 various length quickdraws and 7 slingdraws clipped to the bandolier I carry them on) will go in next. All flexi cams are folded up in a piece of old bubblewrap and go in next followed by the harness, then shoes. Rope is slung over my neck and helmet is carried outside the sack at chest height clipped to 2 snaplinks, one on each shoulder strap. The helmet creates a hollow into which I can put a small water bottle and if approaching an unfamiliar crag, can also place the guidebook for quick reference.

But I only do this when my pet donkey is on holiday.

In reply to summo:


Personally I prefer to wait for my second to at least unpack their harness and belay device before getting halfway up the route, but to each their own.

In reply to sanguine:

I've recently started clipping all of the gear which goes onto the same gear loop onto one 60 cm sling together. So I have all of the gear that goes onto my front left gear loop clipped together (larger wall nuts and microwires), then all of my large cams clipped together, then my quickdraws in 2 bundles, then small cams and finally my small wall nuts and larger offsets, all of these bundles are then clipped to a sling which means that I can rack up really quickly. Gear which doesn't get used on the majority of routes just floats around the bottom of the bag and is not clipped to anything.

In reply to planetmarshall:


no point in being clipped on until you get the first runner in! Personally if I've geared up, uncoiled the rope and set off up the route and I'm still waiting for my 2nd to unpack the bag, containing their harness bag etc. etc.. then I either need to do some subtle coaching, or find different climbing partners.

In reply to sanguine:

Seems like the 'stuff and go' climbers are in a minority, I never knew! The only thought i put into it is the weight distribution. Shoes, harness, chalkbag etc at the bottom, Extra layers on top, then the rack on that. Heavier items nearer your shoulders and all that.
Been doing it for years and nothing has ever broken, and ive never had stuff sticking into my back on the walk in.

In reply to james.slater:
Interesting I always thought that you should attempt to get heavier items on your hips. One of us is doing it wrong.

Al

In reply to sanguine:

Rack everything on a length of cord tied up into a sling. Then I wrap my cams in a bar towel. And put the whole mess into a plastic bag and into my bag. Upon racking up, I have my bar towel ready to wipe my shoes clean

In reply to sanguine:

Gear goes on sling, sling gets lowered into dry bag, laid across bottom of bag, large cams get put between extra layer and harness to keep squish free.

Although I used to know someone who kept their cams in a lunch box as to not crush the cables.

My gear always stays on my harness's gear loops. I thought that was pretty standard?

In reply to james.slater:

Nah, they just didn't bother clicking the reply button quite as enthusiastically as the analysis retentive types did! Sack stuffer checking in here

In reply to Mike Hewitt:

I used to just stuff my gear in the rucksack but as it has got more prolific and expensive I decided that it should be cosseted and cared for. It must be working as it appears to be breeding and I seem to have more and more every time I look these days.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:



You'll have to establish a gear culling season.