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Hi all, after a little help/advice. I'm looking to buy a new belay device. More for multipitch climbing and where I suspect I'll be leading the majority of the climb. Gone are the days of simple 'stitch plates'
I have narrowed my choice down to one specific type, but there are still many to choose from, eg:- BD ATC, Dmm Pivot, Petzl Reverso 4, Edelrid Kilo Jul and the list goes on...
Which (if any) in your opinion is the best/user friendly. Are there any other devices out there that win hands down? Cheers in advance.
I have narrowed my choice down to one specific type, but there are still many to choose from, eg:- BD ATC, Dmm Pivot, Petzl Reverso 4, Edelrid Kilo Jul and the list goes on...
Which (if any) in your opinion is the best/user friendly. Are there any other devices out there that win hands down? Cheers in advance.
4
In reply to iksander:
Too bulky for my tastes but I do use the single rope version and love it.
Al
> my 2c... Mammut Smart Alpine
Too bulky for my tastes but I do use the single rope version and love it.
Al
1
In reply to GridNorth:
Why is everyone so obsessed with this thing? I get that it's easier to lower people when in guide mode, but if you're regularly lowering people in guide mode you're doing it wrong. Personally I like my belay plates to be simple and not to grabby - the pivot is neither, although I've not used it in anger, just played in a shop.
Personally I favour the ATC XP. Lovely plate, simple, bombproof and hardwearing. Reversos are of the same ilk I believe..
Why is everyone so obsessed with this thing? I get that it's easier to lower people when in guide mode, but if you're regularly lowering people in guide mode you're doing it wrong. Personally I like my belay plates to be simple and not to grabby - the pivot is neither, although I've not used it in anger, just played in a shop.
Personally I favour the ATC XP. Lovely plate, simple, bombproof and hardwearing. Reversos are of the same ilk I believe..
1
In reply to ianstevens:
But the ATC XP can't be used in guide mode which I like to do whenever possible. Guide style plates can also be used instead of a prussic loop and changing from abseil to prussic is very easy if you extend the plate. The ease of lowering is just a convenient development and not something I have had to do on a regular basis. I don't find the Pivot grabby at all in fact it's smoother than the Petzl Reverso and the BD Guide.
Al
But the ATC XP can't be used in guide mode which I like to do whenever possible. Guide style plates can also be used instead of a prussic loop and changing from abseil to prussic is very easy if you extend the plate. The ease of lowering is just a convenient development and not something I have had to do on a regular basis. I don't find the Pivot grabby at all in fact it's smoother than the Petzl Reverso and the BD Guide.
Al
1
In reply to GridNorth:
I've got myself a little confused here - is the ATC XP not the Guide version? If not, then that's the one I meant... I'm a big fan of guide mode, just not in a situation where you forsee any lowering. Using a plate in guide mode over a prussic is a joy I only recently discovered when playing with improving the effiecncy of my crevasse rescue technique - works a treat.
I'll go with your experience of the Pivot, seeing as (it seems) you've actually used it in the wild. I think part of my dislike for it is that it represents a lot of the things I dislike about the development of outdoor kit at the moment - there's a lot of clever thinking and engineering going on, just none of it seems to actually solve a problem.
I've got myself a little confused here - is the ATC XP not the Guide version? If not, then that's the one I meant... I'm a big fan of guide mode, just not in a situation where you forsee any lowering. Using a plate in guide mode over a prussic is a joy I only recently discovered when playing with improving the effiecncy of my crevasse rescue technique - works a treat.
I'll go with your experience of the Pivot, seeing as (it seems) you've actually used it in the wild. I think part of my dislike for it is that it represents a lot of the things I dislike about the development of outdoor kit at the moment - there's a lot of clever thinking and engineering going on, just none of it seems to actually solve a problem.
Post edited at 15:27
In reply to ianstevens:
No I do believe it has solved a problem. Lowering is much less faff, not that I would have bought it for that reason alone as that's not something I do very often. My Petzl 3 was getting worn and when I tried my mates Pivot I was convinced very quickly that it was worth buying.
Al
No I do believe it has solved a problem. Lowering is much less faff, not that I would have bought it for that reason alone as that's not something I do very often. My Petzl 3 was getting worn and when I tried my mates Pivot I was convinced very quickly that it was worth buying.
Al
1
In reply to penyolewen:
I have a reverso 4 and cant find a single fault with it! I guess there is a good reason petzl are so popular and that they have now reached the 4th version of the reverso, however I haven't used anything else of the same style so cant really compare it to anything.
I have a reverso 4 and cant find a single fault with it! I guess there is a good reason petzl are so popular and that they have now reached the 4th version of the reverso, however I haven't used anything else of the same style so cant really compare it to anything.
In reply to madmonky:
Have you tried lowering anyone with it? It can be very awkward requiring slings to set up a pulley system. The Pivot makes it much easier.
Al
Have you tried lowering anyone with it? It can be very awkward requiring slings to set up a pulley system. The Pivot makes it much easier.
Al
2
In reply to GridNorth:
Can you explain what you mean here?
> ...Guide style plates can also be used instead of a prussic loop and changing from abseil to prussic is very easy if you extend the plate.
Can you explain what you mean here?
In reply to planetmarshall:
You can use a guide plate as an ascender, I think that's what is meant.
> Can you explain what you mean here?
You can use a guide plate as an ascender, I think that's what is meant.
In reply to GridNorth:
I've the Reverso 4 and I've never had to rig slings or pulleys to lower with it. Extender clipped through the hole on the nose and pull has been easy enough and easy to control. Even just a big karabiner as a handle is normally enough. Once when ropes were ice re-directed the dead end for better control, but suspect that I'd have done that with any of the guide mode devices.
Pivot looks v.interesting, waiting for one of my mates to succumb so that I can play with it in the real world!
to the OP;
Pivot, BD Guide XP, Reverso 4- you won't be upset by any of them - all good plates, all do their job. Pivot is novel, and the "latest thing", but you'll find conflicting reviews and opinions. I've used one in a shop (loaded), but never on the crag. It did seem simpler to lower on (most things feel easy in the shop though....), but until you've been using a device for a while it's hard to rate it realistically.
No experience of the other ones you mention to compare though.
Cheers!
Stu
I've the Reverso 4 and I've never had to rig slings or pulleys to lower with it. Extender clipped through the hole on the nose and pull has been easy enough and easy to control. Even just a big karabiner as a handle is normally enough. Once when ropes were ice re-directed the dead end for better control, but suspect that I'd have done that with any of the guide mode devices.
Pivot looks v.interesting, waiting for one of my mates to succumb so that I can play with it in the real world!
to the OP;
Pivot, BD Guide XP, Reverso 4- you won't be upset by any of them - all good plates, all do their job. Pivot is novel, and the "latest thing", but you'll find conflicting reviews and opinions. I've used one in a shop (loaded), but never on the crag. It did seem simpler to lower on (most things feel easy in the shop though....), but until you've been using a device for a while it's hard to rate it realistically.
No experience of the other ones you mention to compare though.
Cheers!
Stu
3
In reply to StuDoig:
I'm told that it can be easy to lose control though and in fact BD recommend a quite complex set up to prevent this using prussics etc. as backups. There are also videos on Youtube with Instructors confirming this is a risk and showing how to guard against it. It's my understanding that this is not necessary with a Pivot because it gives you greater control. When qualified experienced climbers say there is a risk it pays to listen.
Al
I'm told that it can be easy to lose control though and in fact BD recommend a quite complex set up to prevent this using prussics etc. as backups. There are also videos on Youtube with Instructors confirming this is a risk and showing how to guard against it. It's my understanding that this is not necessary with a Pivot because it gives you greater control. When qualified experienced climbers say there is a risk it pays to listen.
Al
Post edited at 16:26
In reply to ianstevens:
Because it is well balanced (I.e. Works with most of diameters well, from 8.1mm halves to 10.5mm single) and it features the pivot.
I remember one of the longest climbing days in my life, 16 pitches route in a day. It was already the middle of our climbing trip, so you get a little bit tired by then. My partner head off first, leaving me with a big mess at the bottom. I got half the first pitch up and noticed our sandwiches lying on the ground. The communication was not easy, so I just shouted "slack" and started climbing down. Rope got to tight, shouted "slack" again, as loud as I could. My partner got frustrated, shouted something saying "I need slack in order to give you slack". Yes, if you lever/lift the whole device in order to give some slack. It's both user error and design flaw, but using a carabiner as a handle to lever the Pivot makes it so much easier.
Because it is well balanced (I.e. Works with most of diameters well, from 8.1mm halves to 10.5mm single) and it features the pivot.
I remember one of the longest climbing days in my life, 16 pitches route in a day. It was already the middle of our climbing trip, so you get a little bit tired by then. My partner head off first, leaving me with a big mess at the bottom. I got half the first pitch up and noticed our sandwiches lying on the ground. The communication was not easy, so I just shouted "slack" and started climbing down. Rope got to tight, shouted "slack" again, as loud as I could. My partner got frustrated, shouted something saying "I need slack in order to give you slack". Yes, if you lever/lift the whole device in order to give some slack. It's both user error and design flaw, but using a carabiner as a handle to lever the Pivot makes it so much easier.
1
In reply to penyolewen:
I'd throw the mega jul into the ring here. It gets some mixed press but I really rate mine.
It works well in guide mode and is a good self-locker too for indoor wall use (well, assisted locking anyway). You can ascend with it and reversed it makes a decent wee descender. Pretty light too.
Lowering in guide mode takes a spot of practice but there's a hole for a crab to lever it open or you can use the handle to do the same job, though this is a bit more awkward.
I'd throw the mega jul into the ring here. It gets some mixed press but I really rate mine.
It works well in guide mode and is a good self-locker too for indoor wall use (well, assisted locking anyway). You can ascend with it and reversed it makes a decent wee descender. Pretty light too.
Lowering in guide mode takes a spot of practice but there's a hole for a crab to lever it open or you can use the handle to do the same job, though this is a bit more awkward.
1
1
In reply to GridNorth:
Well, yes and no. Petzl's recommended release method is identical to DMMs for the Pivot (not sure about BD, but I'll look it up).
The recommendation to use redirects and pulleys etc are all based on the premise that you can't unload it without mechanical assistance, in which case yes it becomes a complete faff. The biggest risk is when using the redirect/pulley method as most people recommend you use body weight to open the device, which then becomes very easy to lose control of, especially in a catastrophic case where the belayer is incapacitated or slips and fully weights the device effectively jamming it open, at the same time as they lose control of the rope. Hence they then get into the realms of prussic backups to prevent this. Someone posted a good video showing an alternative method a couple of months ago that used a different method than Petzl recommend that was a lot better. Note to self - I must look this up and have a play.
As a note, petzl's instructions don't detail using pulleys or redirects anywhere for the R4 - that's a hangover from the much earlier models.
IF you're releasing the device unassisted (as recommended by Petzl and DMM for their devices), anything happening that causes you to lose control would result in you letting go and the device locking. More or less exactly the same as the pivot, but the pivot's claimed advantage is that is requires less force/effort to open and so you should never be in the position where you can't open it and need to resort to mechanical assistance. Also that the ease of opening makes them more controllable.
re-instructors, I agree they generally know what they're doing - and I've used this method of releasing the reverso on rigging courses with no issues from the instructors.
How much better, if at all, the pivot is? No idea - like I say I'm waiting for a mate to fall foul of temptation and get one so that I can play with it.
Cheers!
Stuart
Well, yes and no. Petzl's recommended release method is identical to DMMs for the Pivot (not sure about BD, but I'll look it up).
The recommendation to use redirects and pulleys etc are all based on the premise that you can't unload it without mechanical assistance, in which case yes it becomes a complete faff. The biggest risk is when using the redirect/pulley method as most people recommend you use body weight to open the device, which then becomes very easy to lose control of, especially in a catastrophic case where the belayer is incapacitated or slips and fully weights the device effectively jamming it open, at the same time as they lose control of the rope. Hence they then get into the realms of prussic backups to prevent this. Someone posted a good video showing an alternative method a couple of months ago that used a different method than Petzl recommend that was a lot better. Note to self - I must look this up and have a play.
As a note, petzl's instructions don't detail using pulleys or redirects anywhere for the R4 - that's a hangover from the much earlier models.
IF you're releasing the device unassisted (as recommended by Petzl and DMM for their devices), anything happening that causes you to lose control would result in you letting go and the device locking. More or less exactly the same as the pivot, but the pivot's claimed advantage is that is requires less force/effort to open and so you should never be in the position where you can't open it and need to resort to mechanical assistance. Also that the ease of opening makes them more controllable.
re-instructors, I agree they generally know what they're doing - and I've used this method of releasing the reverso on rigging courses with no issues from the instructors.
How much better, if at all, the pivot is? No idea - like I say I'm waiting for a mate to fall foul of temptation and get one so that I can play with it.
Cheers!
Stuart
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
I didn't get this either so found a video here:
http://www.climbinglife.com/instructional-videos-mainmenu-87/903-rope-rescu...
Incidentally, is there any reason no-one has commented on the WC pro guide, or is it too similar to others to be worth a separate mention? I bought one discounted as a cheaper alternative but haven't used it in guide mode yet.
I didn't get this either so found a video here:
http://www.climbinglife.com/instructional-videos-mainmenu-87/903-rope-rescu...
Incidentally, is there any reason no-one has commented on the WC pro guide, or is it too similar to others to be worth a separate mention? I bought one discounted as a cheaper alternative but haven't used it in guide mode yet.
2
In reply to penyolewen:
The only downside with the BD version, is I find it's a bit on or off, so personally I'd rather see some kind of back up.
I did a video a while ago... http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk/news/new-video-releasing-a-loaded-guide-p...
As said, if you did start to lose control then you should just let go, I know of at least one very near miss though from the letting go not happening as quick as it should.
The Pivot is supposed to be more adjustable in terms of lowering in guide mode, although I've still not had more than a quick play with one.
The only downside with the BD version, is I find it's a bit on or off, so personally I'd rather see some kind of back up.
I did a video a while ago... http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk/news/new-video-releasing-a-loaded-guide-p...
As said, if you did start to lose control then you should just let go, I know of at least one very near miss though from the letting go not happening as quick as it should.
The Pivot is supposed to be more adjustable in terms of lowering in guide mode, although I've still not had more than a quick play with one.
In reply to penyolewen:
Well, a grigri wins hands down.
I have an ATC-XP and a reverso 4. Both are very good. I hand the XP to anyone who doesn't have one to belay me. And never a reverso. That's a testament...
Got to be an XP. They are superb.
Or a grigri. Or a reverso.
It's all very good gear
Well, a grigri wins hands down.
I have an ATC-XP and a reverso 4. Both are very good. I hand the XP to anyone who doesn't have one to belay me. And never a reverso. That's a testament...
Got to be an XP. They are superb.
Or a grigri. Or a reverso.
It's all very good gear
Post edited at 13:29
1
In reply to penyolewen:
I really like the auto locking feature of the mega Jul, if it was less grabby when abseiling using the auto locking bit, it'd be proper mega. Kilo jul is out of date.
I really like the auto locking feature of the mega Jul, if it was less grabby when abseiling using the auto locking bit, it'd be proper mega. Kilo jul is out of date.
Post edited at 13:28
1
In reply to zimpara:
Grigris are great but the OP is talking about multi pitching so in all likelihood double ropes are being used, so the grigri is out.
Nothing wrong with an xp, not sure why you wouldn't hand a reverso to someone though?
Grigris are great but the OP is talking about multi pitching so in all likelihood double ropes are being used, so the grigri is out.
Nothing wrong with an xp, not sure why you wouldn't hand a reverso to someone though?
In reply to jezb1:
GriGri is amazing for multipitching. As long as it's sport with single rope. Easy to set up, additional safety for rappelling.
Otherwise Reverso is amazing!
GriGri is amazing for multipitching. As long as it's sport with single rope. Easy to set up, additional safety for rappelling.
Otherwise Reverso is amazing!
See this thread for more useful pivot vs other devices http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=614302&v=1#x8032980
I've switched from mega jul to pivot for multipitch routes due to the reasons I state in my post there (because you've got to switch the ropes around in the mega when switching from guide mode to lead mode).
In reply to penyolewen:
Hello, firstly cheers to everyone's input and personal opinions.
I have made my decision and have bought the BD ATC.
Its size was one factor, it didn't feel lost in my hand (biggish hands) and probably easier to handle when wearing gloves. Another factor where the V slots, in comparison to other devices but not all, they where deeper and the larger sized ropes looked more seated when locked off. (I'm not implying that the other brands are any less capable, just a personal point) Other points I considered where reviews, weight & price. I am happy with my decision now time to get out and find out.
Thanks again
Hello, firstly cheers to everyone's input and personal opinions.
I have made my decision and have bought the BD ATC.
Its size was one factor, it didn't feel lost in my hand (biggish hands) and probably easier to handle when wearing gloves. Another factor where the V slots, in comparison to other devices but not all, they where deeper and the larger sized ropes looked more seated when locked off. (I'm not implying that the other brands are any less capable, just a personal point) Other points I considered where reviews, weight & price. I am happy with my decision now time to get out and find out.
Thanks again
1
1
In reply to jonnie3430:
Totally agree fella. I properly scared the bejesus out of myself abbing with it on locking mode the first time! It can be done but is far too grabby then droppy. It was quite stressful trying to control that and move a prussik with only two hands.
Now I just reverse it, i.e. Have the handle facing me so it runs like a normal belay device and the locking feature is disabled. That and a prussik back up is easy, controllable and safe.
Totally agree fella. I properly scared the bejesus out of myself abbing with it on locking mode the first time! It can be done but is far too grabby then droppy. It was quite stressful trying to control that and move a prussik with only two hands.
Now I just reverse it, i.e. Have the handle facing me so it runs like a normal belay device and the locking feature is disabled. That and a prussik back up is easy, controllable and safe.
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