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Thinking of doing a few winter expeditions this winter and was wondering what tent/bivi you would recommend for wild camping in winter conditions. Will a normal summer vango tent be adequate or will I have to get something a bit more advanced?
Cheers
Adam
Cheers
Adam
In reply to mason_7:
Depends what you have got - some modern lightweight tents can take a lot of hammer, see PTC's blog for some examples. Sensible pitching and route planning that allows access to well sheltered spots or alternatively bailing to a bothy if it's really goping can go a long way.
Do consider that nights are long, have a good sleeping system (Matt and bag are both important), 12 hours drifting in and out of sleep in a winter camp after a grand day on the hill is fantastic if warm, terrible if cold.
Similarly take plenty of scoff and perhaps a fine malt or port.
Depends what you have got - some modern lightweight tents can take a lot of hammer, see PTC's blog for some examples. Sensible pitching and route planning that allows access to well sheltered spots or alternatively bailing to a bothy if it's really goping can go a long way.
Do consider that nights are long, have a good sleeping system (Matt and bag are both important), 12 hours drifting in and out of sleep in a winter camp after a grand day on the hill is fantastic if warm, terrible if cold.
Similarly take plenty of scoff and perhaps a fine malt or port.
5
In reply to Dr.S at work:
Yeah I have a thermarest and just got myself a 4 season sleeping bag ( comfort -9) so im sure that will keep me warm enough. I just have a vango banshee. Seems to hold out quite well in strong winds.
Yeah I have a thermarest and just got myself a 4 season sleeping bag ( comfort -9) so im sure that will keep me warm enough. I just have a vango banshee. Seems to hold out quite well in strong winds.
In reply to mason_7:
I would be cold in winter in a -9C comfort sleeping bag. YMMV.
There are thermarests and thermarests. They are not equally warm.
I would be cold in winter in a -9C comfort sleeping bag. YMMV.
There are thermarests and thermarests. They are not equally warm.
1
In reply to mason_7: It might seem obvious, but I'll say it anyway: why not have a go now and see how you get on with what you've got?
Trying now, before the worst of the winter chill sets in but there's still enough cold wet dark to test things, will show you what's good about your kit, what's not so good and teach you a few tricks to make you canny and comfortable when it gets properly brass monkeys.
My thoughts? Pick a route that gives you two camping choices: one where you want to be, another where you'll go if the weather gets more sporting. Take a bit more fuel and food than you think you'll need - hot food can be a great comforter - and take a water bottle than can cope with being filled with hot water. Just before you turn in, fill it with hot water and you've got a hot water bottle for the night and (experience proved this) you'll have liquid water for a morning brew if everything's frozen outside.
And enjoy it, even if only in retrospect.
T.
Trying now, before the worst of the winter chill sets in but there's still enough cold wet dark to test things, will show you what's good about your kit, what's not so good and teach you a few tricks to make you canny and comfortable when it gets properly brass monkeys.
My thoughts? Pick a route that gives you two camping choices: one where you want to be, another where you'll go if the weather gets more sporting. Take a bit more fuel and food than you think you'll need - hot food can be a great comforter - and take a water bottle than can cope with being filled with hot water. Just before you turn in, fill it with hot water and you've got a hot water bottle for the night and (experience proved this) you'll have liquid water for a morning brew if everything's frozen outside.
And enjoy it, even if only in retrospect.
T.
6
In reply to mason_7:
The one thing you really need is the Kindle App on your Smart phone and load it with a lot of books, Winter nights are very long when your just staring at the inside of your eyelids!
The one thing you really need is the Kindle App on your Smart phone and load it with a lot of books, Winter nights are very long when your just staring at the inside of your eyelids!
3
In reply to mason_7:
Camping in winter can mean getting away with Just a bivi bag decent mat and sleeping bag - even if ground is snow covered and minus 20 and on top of a mountain but in good clear weather with a settled, windless forecast. I bivvied out in such conditions on A Chir Ridge, Isle of Arran, years ago. And Stob Gabhair. If there are two or more of you it's worthwhile taking a flysheet and digging into a snow bank a bit.
This is just one example illustrating that it's horses for courses when it comes to winter gear choice.
Camping in winter can mean getting away with Just a bivi bag decent mat and sleeping bag - even if ground is snow covered and minus 20 and on top of a mountain but in good clear weather with a settled, windless forecast. I bivvied out in such conditions on A Chir Ridge, Isle of Arran, years ago. And Stob Gabhair. If there are two or more of you it's worthwhile taking a flysheet and digging into a snow bank a bit.
This is just one example illustrating that it's horses for courses when it comes to winter gear choice.
2
In reply to Dr.S at work:
Is Matt available to accompany other people on their winter camping trips? And is he particularly small so fits well in a sleeping bag with you?
> (Matt and bag are both important), 12 hours drifting in and out of sleep in a winter camp after a grand day on the hill is fantastic if warm, terrible if cold.
Is Matt available to accompany other people on their winter camping trips? And is he particularly small so fits well in a sleeping bag with you?
3
2
In reply to gilliesp:
Who needs a bivvy bag? http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=5328
Actually, do you think it was -20 on the mountain top? Generally in the UK you only get temps that cold in deep valleys, but if you go up hillsides it can warm up noticeably (not actually warm mind, just less cold than down in the depths of the inversion.
> Camping in winter can mean getting away with Just a bivi bag decent mat and sleeping bag - even if ground is snow covered and minus 20
Who needs a bivvy bag? http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=5328
Actually, do you think it was -20 on the mountain top? Generally in the UK you only get temps that cold in deep valleys, but if you go up hillsides it can warm up noticeably (not actually warm mind, just less cold than down in the depths of the inversion.
1
2
In reply to mason_7:
You will have fun if you stay warm but if you get cold it's not as much fun
If u have a thermarest inflatable mat put a cheap lightweight roll mat underneath it to increase warmth and add a fleece sleeping back liner if u need that extra warmth
Take a load of plastic bag and fill em full of snow, bury them in the snow and tie them to your tent peg locations of ground conditions allow or get some snow stakes/ pegs if the ground is hard
You will have fun if you stay warm but if you get cold it's not as much fun
If u have a thermarest inflatable mat put a cheap lightweight roll mat underneath it to increase warmth and add a fleece sleeping back liner if u need that extra warmth
Take a load of plastic bag and fill em full of snow, bury them in the snow and tie them to your tent peg locations of ground conditions allow or get some snow stakes/ pegs if the ground is hard
In reply to mason_7:
Ok so carrying on from my Kindle app reply; If you really want to camp and work on those caricature building times, then!
For warmth small tent is better than big, for condensation big is better than small, but in all honesty in a Scot winter any tent will get condensation to the point everything will be damp if not piss wet, so for more than 1 night then its a synthetic 4 season bag. Don't know what Vango you have but as mentioned its more about the pitching than the tent, Location and securing guys!
After the book the most important things are, ear plugs for a flapping tent and a PEE BOTTLE! so you can just go when you want instead of lying awake thinking you can last till morning only to get out 1/2 hour before dawn realizing you've been awake 2 hrs holding your bladder!
Ok so carrying on from my Kindle app reply; If you really want to camp and work on those caricature building times, then!
For warmth small tent is better than big, for condensation big is better than small, but in all honesty in a Scot winter any tent will get condensation to the point everything will be damp if not piss wet, so for more than 1 night then its a synthetic 4 season bag. Don't know what Vango you have but as mentioned its more about the pitching than the tent, Location and securing guys!
After the book the most important things are, ear plugs for a flapping tent and a PEE BOTTLE! so you can just go when you want instead of lying awake thinking you can last till morning only to get out 1/2 hour before dawn realizing you've been awake 2 hrs holding your bladder!
4
In reply to pass and peak:
I was just gonna say "PISS BOTTLE!" Beat me to it
Get at least a litre one, as 600ml ones can overflow, don't ask how I know.
Thermal baselayers and spare 'blanket' or better still a down quilt. Alpkit have some coming soon.
I was just gonna say "PISS BOTTLE!" Beat me to it
Get at least a litre one, as 600ml ones can overflow, don't ask how I know.
Thermal baselayers and spare 'blanket' or better still a down quilt. Alpkit have some coming soon.
In reply to pass and peak:
Interesting post. I was leaning towards getting a down bag this winter, as I figured most good tents would be able to handle the condensation. I'm not planning Scotland this winter, but definitely some Welsh winter camping, which I imagine will be similar weather wise... Going to need a bigger pack after all lol!
Interesting post. I was leaning towards getting a down bag this winter, as I figured most good tents would be able to handle the condensation. I'm not planning Scotland this winter, but definitely some Welsh winter camping, which I imagine will be similar weather wise... Going to need a bigger pack after all lol!
1
In reply to ScottTalbot:
You need to put a karrimat on TOP of a thermarest to insulate you from the cold air in the thermarest.
Condensation is always a problem. I dry a down bag by running a primus in the tent at a low peep. You have to ensure you have plenty of ventilation to avoid CO poisoning. I sometimes leave the stove running with just my head outside of the inner tent and my body inside with the inner zipped around my neck. It gets really warm and drys your bag.
Alternatively use a dry liner. Get in a poly bag and then get into your sleeping bag and then another polythene or goretex bag over the whole sleeping bag. This is quite sweaty but it avoids condensation on and in the bag and keeps you warm if its really cold.
Finally do not breath into your bag.
Old fashioned cotton tents like the Artic Guinea and Blacks Good Companions pyramid tent did not have the condensation problems associated with modern nylon tents and were very comfortable in cold Scottish conditions.
You need to put a karrimat on TOP of a thermarest to insulate you from the cold air in the thermarest.
Condensation is always a problem. I dry a down bag by running a primus in the tent at a low peep. You have to ensure you have plenty of ventilation to avoid CO poisoning. I sometimes leave the stove running with just my head outside of the inner tent and my body inside with the inner zipped around my neck. It gets really warm and drys your bag.
Alternatively use a dry liner. Get in a poly bag and then get into your sleeping bag and then another polythene or goretex bag over the whole sleeping bag. This is quite sweaty but it avoids condensation on and in the bag and keeps you warm if its really cold.
Finally do not breath into your bag.
Old fashioned cotton tents like the Artic Guinea and Blacks Good Companions pyramid tent did not have the condensation problems associated with modern nylon tents and were very comfortable in cold Scottish conditions.
1
In reply to ScottTalbot:
Condensation doesn't need to be a massive problem with a bit of thought about pitching, leaving some ventilation overnight and not cooking inside the porch of a closed tent (not a great idea anyway unless the weather is really foul).
I switched from synthetic to down bag about 3 years ago and camp a minimum of 7 winter nights each year. No serious problems with the bag getting damp. I find being really careful that nothing really soaking is put in the tent inner makes quite a difference. So pack, gaiters, waterproofs, even wet socks all stay out in the porch.
Biggest issue is whether you are solo or sharing the tent. The extra exhaled breath from more than one in the tent during the night makes the condensation much worse.
Condensation doesn't need to be a massive problem with a bit of thought about pitching, leaving some ventilation overnight and not cooking inside the porch of a closed tent (not a great idea anyway unless the weather is really foul).
I switched from synthetic to down bag about 3 years ago and camp a minimum of 7 winter nights each year. No serious problems with the bag getting damp. I find being really careful that nothing really soaking is put in the tent inner makes quite a difference. So pack, gaiters, waterproofs, even wet socks all stay out in the porch.
Biggest issue is whether you are solo or sharing the tent. The extra exhaled breath from more than one in the tent during the night makes the condensation much worse.
2
In reply to Root1:
Other way round surely? The air in the thermarest will be warmed up if trapped between your body and the karrimat. Gives a comfier surface too.
> You need to put a karrimat on TOP of a thermarest to insulate you from the cold air in the thermarest.
Other way round surely? The air in the thermarest will be warmed up if trapped between your body and the karrimat. Gives a comfier surface too.
2
In reply to Wainers44:
I remember going camping with a mate years ago, and he insisted on cooking inside the tent because it was snowing outside. By the time he had finished I could hardly see him from the other end where I was sitting (it was a macpac minaret!).
The next morning we woke up and his first words were "Dave. I think your tent has a condensation problem!"
Cheeky bugger.
I remember going camping with a mate years ago, and he insisted on cooking inside the tent because it was snowing outside. By the time he had finished I could hardly see him from the other end where I was sitting (it was a macpac minaret!).
The next morning we woke up and his first words were "Dave. I think your tent has a condensation problem!"
Cheeky bugger.
In reply to mason_7:
Tents and conditions can be so random. I had a 4 season TN quasar absolutely destroyed by a storm at 600m a couple of winters back. Forecasts and position of the pitch is important. Good to have an escape plan just incase.
The sleeping mat can make a difference if you're a cold sleeper. I use an Exped downmat which stops some of the cold coming from the ground.
Tents and conditions can be so random. I had a 4 season TN quasar absolutely destroyed by a storm at 600m a couple of winters back. Forecasts and position of the pitch is important. Good to have an escape plan just incase.
The sleeping mat can make a difference if you're a cold sleeper. I use an Exped downmat which stops some of the cold coming from the ground.
In reply to mason_7:
I'd say 'go for it', but try somewhere not too remote so's you have the option to bail out if things get too uncomfortable.
Might be a good idea to try on a sub-zero night at a campsite or even a garden.
I'd say 'go for it', but try somewhere not too remote so's you have the option to bail out if things get too uncomfortable.
Might be a good idea to try on a sub-zero night at a campsite or even a garden.
1
In reply to mason_7:
ok, not a solution for expeditions, but... Last year I bought a tentipi. This years birthday/ christmas from my mrs was the wood burning stove to go with it!
It's bloomin' marvellous and cold stops being any sort of issue, However unless you were canoe camping it really isn't an expedition solution
One of these:
http://www.tentipiblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Tentipi-in-snow-Tim-G...
ok, not a solution for expeditions, but... Last year I bought a tentipi. This years birthday/ christmas from my mrs was the wood burning stove to go with it!
It's bloomin' marvellous and cold stops being any sort of issue, However unless you were canoe camping it really isn't an expedition solution
One of these:
http://www.tentipiblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Tentipi-in-snow-Tim-G...
2
In reply to toad:
Yep, tentipi is where it's at. Your do,need to ensure the pegging point are sound though (.as I found to my cost in the middle of the night on Mull once camped on 2 inch thick soil- and no, boulders round the edge didn't help).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13818533@N04/2400056673/in/dateposted-public/
Yep, tentipi is where it's at. Your do,need to ensure the pegging point are sound though (.as I found to my cost in the middle of the night on Mull once camped on 2 inch thick soil- and no, boulders round the edge didn't help).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13818533@N04/2400056673/in/dateposted-public/
1
In reply to mason_7:
Not much use for winter backpacking, but as a winter basecamp tent, I really like my old cotton Force Ten Mk4. Tough (heavy!) PVC coated tub groundsheet, plus cotton inner and fly. Me and SWMBO use it regularly for winter trips - wool blanket makes a 'carpet' over the floor, then we each have an Alpkit Fat Airic sleeping mat and down bags. The cotton seems more breatheable and is definitely quieter than nylon. It also feels warmer, although I expect that is just psychological.
Winter camping, whether it be cold and snowy, or wet and wild, requires a certain amount of routine to avoid going in and out more than necessary to prevent snow/water getting inside. We try to cook outside unless the weather is bad, but if it is bad, cook in the porch with the flap open as much as possible. P-bottles essential (plus shewee for girls!). Kindles and ipods have revolutionised winter camping since I were a lad!
N
Not much use for winter backpacking, but as a winter basecamp tent, I really like my old cotton Force Ten Mk4. Tough (heavy!) PVC coated tub groundsheet, plus cotton inner and fly. Me and SWMBO use it regularly for winter trips - wool blanket makes a 'carpet' over the floor, then we each have an Alpkit Fat Airic sleeping mat and down bags. The cotton seems more breatheable and is definitely quieter than nylon. It also feels warmer, although I expect that is just psychological.
Winter camping, whether it be cold and snowy, or wet and wild, requires a certain amount of routine to avoid going in and out more than necessary to prevent snow/water getting inside. We try to cook outside unless the weather is bad, but if it is bad, cook in the porch with the flap open as much as possible. P-bottles essential (plus shewee for girls!). Kindles and ipods have revolutionised winter camping since I were a lad!
N
In reply to mason_7:
The night is long and full of boredom.
Ebooks and podcasts I find essential to stop me pulling my eyes out.
In winter, if suitable, I prefer a bothy.
The night is long and full of boredom.
Ebooks and podcasts I find essential to stop me pulling my eyes out.
In winter, if suitable, I prefer a bothy.
1
In reply to TobyA:
Airport recorded minus 19C. Flesh stuck to steel instantly. It was a unique spell of cold weather many years ago and ice shattered the way it does in Rjukan when it's that cold. And that was in a car park. The height/valley thing was pretty equal I'd say - as can happen. It was very still and dry and for Scotland very cold...trust me.
Airport recorded minus 19C. Flesh stuck to steel instantly. It was a unique spell of cold weather many years ago and ice shattered the way it does in Rjukan when it's that cold. And that was in a car park. The height/valley thing was pretty equal I'd say - as can happen. It was very still and dry and for Scotland very cold...trust me.
1
In reply to gilliesp:
The first time I went to Helsinki it was colder in Glasgow where I left from than in Helsinki where it was -15 or so. I think Glasgow got into the high teens negative so I know it can happen! People were ice climbing on smears on the road cuttings on the A82.
The first time I went to Helsinki it was colder in Glasgow where I left from than in Helsinki where it was -15 or so. I think Glasgow got into the high teens negative so I know it can happen! People were ice climbing on smears on the road cuttings on the A82.
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