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I bumped into Aris yesterday - the European funding for the rebolting has been released and the material has arrive on the island. Currently three guys (two on ropes, one ground-based) have started the rebolting - Great Canyon (round left from Pocket Wall), the left side of Dolphin Bay and Grande Grotta have already seen attention.
They have access to
• 2400 stainless-steel glue-in bolts (316L, 12mm) are to be used for rebolting existing routes
• 400 V-type anchors with two opposed carabiners are to replace older lower-offs
• 580 carabiners are to be placed on anchors without carabiners or used to replace worn carabiners
• 100 new routes are to be equipped using stainless-steel bolts (316L, 12mm) and V-type anchors with two opposed carabiners
Also some roadside crag markers/signposts will be added.
This is a major initiative - hats off to all those concerned,
Chris
They have access to
• 2400 stainless-steel glue-in bolts (316L, 12mm) are to be used for rebolting existing routes
• 400 V-type anchors with two opposed carabiners are to replace older lower-offs
• 580 carabiners are to be placed on anchors without carabiners or used to replace worn carabiners
• 100 new routes are to be equipped using stainless-steel bolts (316L, 12mm) and V-type anchors with two opposed carabiners
Also some roadside crag markers/signposts will be added.
This is a major initiative - hats off to all those concerned,
Chris
22
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Great that this is being done. While I do like the convenience of a nice shiney new crab to clip at the top of a route, a couple of years down the line when the crabs start to get a bit worn and sticky I start wishing there were two solid rings to thread. On balance I'd prefer if lower-off rings were being installed instead of crabs.
Great that this is being done. While I do like the convenience of a nice shiney new crab to clip at the top of a route, a couple of years down the line when the crabs start to get a bit worn and sticky I start wishing there were two solid rings to thread. On balance I'd prefer if lower-off rings were being installed instead of crabs.
Post edited at 10:44
5
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Sounds like good news. How will climbers be voting in the EU referendum, I wonder?
Sounds like good news. How will climbers be voting in the EU referendum, I wonder?
2
In reply to Rog Wilko:
@rog - once you've opted out of the EU, British climbers will no longer have any access to all that EU climbing. Sorry. But climbing is said to be nice in the UK as well.
... from one of the continental readers that clearly fails to understand uk politics ...
@rog - once you've opted out of the EU, British climbers will no longer have any access to all that EU climbing. Sorry. But climbing is said to be nice in the UK as well.
... from one of the continental readers that clearly fails to understand uk politics ...
Post edited at 12:59
5
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
Stainless 12mm glue-ins as I understand it - once piece of metal and no stress?
Chris
Stainless 12mm glue-ins as I understand it - once piece of metal and no stress?
Chris
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
UIAAA .... Stress corrosion cracking (SCC) has been confirmed as the cause of a number of recent climbing anchor (bolt) failures and is further suspected in many more incidents. Such SCC induced failures may occur within a few months or years of installation, under loads as low as body weight, in stainless steel anchors—even 316 grade steel.
That's why I was curious about the choice of material..... especially with such a huge investment of time and money. Jim Titt will probably clarify .... I certainly have NO metallurgy knowledge.
UIAAA .... Stress corrosion cracking (SCC) has been confirmed as the cause of a number of recent climbing anchor (bolt) failures and is further suspected in many more incidents. Such SCC induced failures may occur within a few months or years of installation, under loads as low as body weight, in stainless steel anchors—even 316 grade steel.
That's why I was curious about the choice of material..... especially with such a huge investment of time and money. Jim Titt will probably clarify .... I certainly have NO metallurgy knowledge.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Great news Chris, are you out in Kalymnos now? if so how is the weather this time of year?
Cheers
Chris
Great news Chris, are you out in Kalymnos now? if so how is the weather this time of year?
Cheers
Chris
1
In reply to Christheclimber:
Generally VERY pleasant; 18 to 20C and oh so quiet - nobody else on Arginonta (or Arhi, or Sea Breeze) yesterday,
Chris
Generally VERY pleasant; 18 to 20C and oh so quiet - nobody else on Arginonta (or Arhi, or Sea Breeze) yesterday,
Chris
2
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
It depends on the local environment how prevalent SCC is, it's not just a matter of the wrong material and 316 is considered to be one of the better, though not immune, materials.
> UIAAA .... Stress corrosion cracking (SCC) has been confirmed as the cause of a number of recent climbing anchor (bolt) failures and is further suspected in many more incidents. Such SCC induced failures may occur within a few months or years of installation, under loads as low as body weight, in stainless steel anchors—even 316 grade steel.
> That's why I was curious about the choice of material..... especially with such a huge investment of time and money. Jim Titt will probably clarify .... I certainly have NO metallurgy knowledge.
It depends on the local environment how prevalent SCC is, it's not just a matter of the wrong material and 316 is considered to be one of the better, though not immune, materials.
1
In reply to JLS:
I was talking with Toni Arbones last week in Siurana. He has equipped hundreds of routes there and strongly agrees with your preference for double rings over single krabs. He pointed out the krabs can need replacing in a year or two on some of the high profile routes.
I was talking with Toni Arbones last week in Siurana. He has equipped hundreds of routes there and strongly agrees with your preference for double rings over single krabs. He pointed out the krabs can need replacing in a year or two on some of the high profile routes.
2
In reply to tjekel:
Climbing can be nice in the UK, Thomas. All you need is some decent weather. You should try it sometime.
I can't understand British politics either.
Climbing can be nice in the UK, Thomas. All you need is some decent weather. You should try it sometime.
I can't understand British politics either.
In reply to krikoman:
But I thought that a marine/coastal environment like at Kalymnos ( and Sicily) was one of the main problems.
Just looking for some reassurance before my return to these venues
I agree with the comments about rings versus crabs.
But I thought that a marine/coastal environment like at Kalymnos ( and Sicily) was one of the main problems.
Just looking for some reassurance before my return to these venues
I agree with the comments about rings versus crabs.
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
The main problems are people using rubbish bolts like plated stuff and some manufacturers striving to remain competitively priced by using sub-standard material.
We think ramshorns are better than either rings or karabiners, they are cheap, reliable, have no welds to corrode, don´t require the climber unties from the rope and are easy to change when worn.
The main problems are people using rubbish bolts like plated stuff and some manufacturers striving to remain competitively priced by using sub-standard material.
We think ramshorns are better than either rings or karabiners, they are cheap, reliable, have no welds to corrode, don´t require the climber unties from the rope and are easy to change when worn.
5
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Yes, it's a great effort!
For those who don't know, I'm head of Titan Climbing and we produce Titanium bolts and anchors. This said, I'll be as impartial as possible, keeping facts as facts and give information and advice to the best of my knowledge and experience.
I think it's a good move forward to go from expansion bolts to glue in bolts for many reasons. Some of which being:
1. Glue in bolts with good resin (Pure Epoxy with ETA certification and a 50 year life expectancy) should last longer than an expansion bolt of the same material in the same environment. This is mainly due to (typically) lower stresses from manufacturing and installation, less crevices and less parts resulting in lower risks of galvanic corrosion. History has shown that welds on stainless bolts have been the cause of failure though.
2. Glue in bolts have a much greater inside radius which reduces wear on quickdraws. A climber can thread rope through a glue in bolt and lower off although I really don't recommend trusting ones life to a single bolt, nor should people be wearing them out in this fashion.
3. Glue in bolts don't have a nut that can come loose and then be re-tightened to some often unknown torque.
I would have to ask the question "Why are Stainless bolts being replaced with Stainless bolts?
Francis Haden and Gordon Jenkin have been quite active developing new, Titanium bolted routes on Telendos over the last couple of years.
I would agree that in the interests of getting the longest life out of an anchor, no matter what it is made of, it would be far better to have replaceable rings at anchor stations rather than clips. If rings are replaceable then the whole anchor won't need to be replaced next time, thus saving money and time.
I understand that Kalymnos prefers to have clips at anchor stations for ease of clipping so that climbers do not need to untie. I respect the decision of course, even though it's not my preference.
I think it's always worth mentioning that climbers should use their own equipment on anchors whenever it's safe to do so (normally all the time), once the party is finished on the route only the last person should thread or clip the anchor in order to keep wear to a minimum.
Martin
Yes, it's a great effort!
For those who don't know, I'm head of Titan Climbing and we produce Titanium bolts and anchors. This said, I'll be as impartial as possible, keeping facts as facts and give information and advice to the best of my knowledge and experience.
I think it's a good move forward to go from expansion bolts to glue in bolts for many reasons. Some of which being:
1. Glue in bolts with good resin (Pure Epoxy with ETA certification and a 50 year life expectancy) should last longer than an expansion bolt of the same material in the same environment. This is mainly due to (typically) lower stresses from manufacturing and installation, less crevices and less parts resulting in lower risks of galvanic corrosion. History has shown that welds on stainless bolts have been the cause of failure though.
2. Glue in bolts have a much greater inside radius which reduces wear on quickdraws. A climber can thread rope through a glue in bolt and lower off although I really don't recommend trusting ones life to a single bolt, nor should people be wearing them out in this fashion.
3. Glue in bolts don't have a nut that can come loose and then be re-tightened to some often unknown torque.
I would have to ask the question "Why are Stainless bolts being replaced with Stainless bolts?
Francis Haden and Gordon Jenkin have been quite active developing new, Titanium bolted routes on Telendos over the last couple of years.
I would agree that in the interests of getting the longest life out of an anchor, no matter what it is made of, it would be far better to have replaceable rings at anchor stations rather than clips. If rings are replaceable then the whole anchor won't need to be replaced next time, thus saving money and time.
I understand that Kalymnos prefers to have clips at anchor stations for ease of clipping so that climbers do not need to untie. I respect the decision of course, even though it's not my preference.
I think it's always worth mentioning that climbers should use their own equipment on anchors whenever it's safe to do so (normally all the time), once the party is finished on the route only the last person should thread or clip the anchor in order to keep wear to a minimum.
Martin
5
In reply to jimtitt:
Hi Jim
Been following and involved in the bolting debacle, the politics the back biting bullshit and down right nastiness, of some, that is Kalymnos new routing!
Have a look at the photo posted on Climb Kalymnos of the glue in placed!
http://climbkalymnos.com/the-municipal-rebolting-project-is-now-underway/#....
Is it me or does that have a welded seam at the top of the eye??
Will stress corrosion cracking be an issue with welded seam bolts??
Should the bolt be more recessed into the rock??
Victor just looking at the photo here answers your question it looks as though the bolt is either hammered in or over with no attempt to remove them which can be done using a technique pioneered by Greg German, check the video link below, Greg sent a removal tool over to Steve McDonnell at the Glaros so we can do this!
youtube.com/watch?v=PLl59N-HIds&
Hi Jim
Been following and involved in the bolting debacle, the politics the back biting bullshit and down right nastiness, of some, that is Kalymnos new routing!
Have a look at the photo posted on Climb Kalymnos of the glue in placed!
http://climbkalymnos.com/the-municipal-rebolting-project-is-now-underway/#....
Is it me or does that have a welded seam at the top of the eye??
Will stress corrosion cracking be an issue with welded seam bolts??
Should the bolt be more recessed into the rock??
Victor just looking at the photo here answers your question it looks as though the bolt is either hammered in or over with no attempt to remove them which can be done using a technique pioneered by Greg German, check the video link below, Greg sent a removal tool over to Steve McDonnell at the Glaros so we can do this!
youtube.com/watch?v=PLl59N-HIds&
In reply to andyb211:
Welds are always a suspect area when it comes to general corrosion no matter how much care is taken during th welding process and with the post-weld treatment. The residual welding stresses can make the product more liable to SCC as well as the changes to the metal itself particularly in areas directly beside the weld. I wouldn´t choose a welded bolt in a marine application as first choice.
I know very little about recessing bolts, we don´t recommend it is done with our products.
Welds are always a suspect area when it comes to general corrosion no matter how much care is taken during th welding process and with the post-weld treatment. The residual welding stresses can make the product more liable to SCC as well as the changes to the metal itself particularly in areas directly beside the weld. I wouldn´t choose a welded bolt in a marine application as first choice.
I know very little about recessing bolts, we don´t recommend it is done with our products.
1
In reply to Kafoozalem:
It's an interesting conundrum.
Will more people suffer "death and/or serious injury" from threading rings wrongly or from lowering of crabs in poor condition. My guess is that in Kalymnos the judgement call has been made that threading rings is the more dangerous. I can see the argument. I hear of a lot more threading accidents than accidents resulting from lowering off fixed gear in poor condition.
It's an interesting conundrum.
Will more people suffer "death and/or serious injury" from threading rings wrongly or from lowering of crabs in poor condition. My guess is that in Kalymnos the judgement call has been made that threading rings is the more dangerous. I can see the argument. I hear of a lot more threading accidents than accidents resulting from lowering off fixed gear in poor condition.
In reply to jimtitt:
"We think ramshorns are better than either rings or karabiners, they are cheap, reliable, have no welds to corrode, don£t require the climber unties from the rope and are easy to change when worn."
Do ramshorns not wear-out much quicker than rings? I've see many worn-out ramshorns still in place while I've never seen a worn-out ring (sniggers). The bolt/mallion/ring solution to my mind produces the greatest combination of security, longevity & replace-ability.
"We think ramshorns are better than either rings or karabiners, they are cheap, reliable, have no welds to corrode, don£t require the climber unties from the rope and are easy to change when worn."
Do ramshorns not wear-out much quicker than rings? I've see many worn-out ramshorns still in place while I've never seen a worn-out ring (sniggers). The bolt/mallion/ring solution to my mind produces the greatest combination of security, longevity & replace-ability.
Post edited at 11:04
2
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Sounds great, it certainly beats the torrential rain here in the UK. Jealous? Moi?
> Generally VERY pleasant; 18 to 20C and oh so quiet - nobody else on Arginonta (or Arhi, or Sea Breeze) yesterday,
> Chris
Sounds great, it certainly beats the torrential rain here in the UK. Jealous? Moi?
In reply to JLS:
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are plenty of worn out rings out there, google can show you pictures if you like.
Rings should rotate and the wear even itself out BUT very often they don´t, either they lie badly on the rock or more commonly catch on the weld so the opposite side wears prematurely, once that starts wearing the ring can hang up in the groove and the wear starts the other side by the weld, the classic two-groove wear pattern. Ramshorns just wear like normal but don´t forget there are two pieces of metal to take the punishment, not one.
Price-wise an identical inline chainset using maillons and one ring cost €15 more than the identical one with a ramshorn (about the price of two extra spare ramshorns).
The main concern is not however wear, as has been noted above it is the increased safety from using clip-in top anchors. Ramshorns are safer AND cheaper. The only fatal accident at Kalymnos was from a re-tieing error.
> "We think ramshorns are better than either rings or karabiners, they are cheap, reliable, have no welds to corrode, don£t require the climber unties from the rope and are easy to change when worn."
> Do ramshorns not wear-out much quicker than rings? I've see many worn-out ramshorns still in place while I've never seen a worn-out ring (sniggers). The bolt/mallion/ring solution to my mind produces the greatest combination of security, longevity & replace-ability.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are plenty of worn out rings out there, google can show you pictures if you like.
Rings should rotate and the wear even itself out BUT very often they don´t, either they lie badly on the rock or more commonly catch on the weld so the opposite side wears prematurely, once that starts wearing the ring can hang up in the groove and the wear starts the other side by the weld, the classic two-groove wear pattern. Ramshorns just wear like normal but don´t forget there are two pieces of metal to take the punishment, not one.
Price-wise an identical inline chainset using maillons and one ring cost €15 more than the identical one with a ramshorn (about the price of two extra spare ramshorns).
The main concern is not however wear, as has been noted above it is the increased safety from using clip-in top anchors. Ramshorns are safer AND cheaper. The only fatal accident at Kalymnos was from a re-tieing error.
2
In reply to jimtitt:
Isn't top roping directly off the clip in lower offs one of the main reason for them wearing out? Rams Horns are a good alternative and pretty fail safe.
Isn't top roping directly off the clip in lower offs one of the main reason for them wearing out? Rams Horns are a good alternative and pretty fail safe.
1
In reply to victorclimber:
I'm not sure 'taking out' bolts is ever an option without a huge amount of work and mess. If they were correctly place the usual scenario is to remove the nut and hanger and hammer the bolt all the way into the hole, then covering the end with mud or a spot of sika,
Chris
> so will the old bolts be taken out and the holes repaired .or just left .
I'm not sure 'taking out' bolts is ever an option without a huge amount of work and mess. If they were correctly place the usual scenario is to remove the nut and hanger and hammer the bolt all the way into the hole, then covering the end with mud or a spot of sika,
Chris
1
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hi Chris
If done properly, it isn't a hassle, been liasing with Greg German over in the states and we now have a tool for bolt removal.
so after we remove the old expansion bolt we are left with a 10mm hole, re bore this to 12mm give a good clean out and add a 12mm glue in.
Beauty of this is we use the same placement, thereby not changing the character of a route using a glue in the bolt should last significantly longer or so I'm told, than an expansion bolt.
youtube.com/watch?v=PLl59N-HIds&
youtube.com/watch?v=EHMXAvNG5Is&
Hi Chris
If done properly, it isn't a hassle, been liasing with Greg German over in the states and we now have a tool for bolt removal.
so after we remove the old expansion bolt we are left with a 10mm hole, re bore this to 12mm give a good clean out and add a 12mm glue in.
Beauty of this is we use the same placement, thereby not changing the character of a route using a glue in the bolt should last significantly longer or so I'm told, than an expansion bolt.
youtube.com/watch?v=PLl59N-HIds&
youtube.com/watch?v=EHMXAvNG5Is&
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Also have a look at this vid as well which is pretty informative. Got a bit of Hilti envy now though!
youtube.com/watch?v=OQIKa9WOyeQ&
Also have a look at this vid as well which is pretty informative. Got a bit of Hilti envy now though!
youtube.com/watch?v=OQIKa9WOyeQ&
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