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This will piss a few hundred people off because no one can seem to agree on the Crag Swag Rules.
I personal think that if you find something at a crag then it is yours unless it has a name tag on it then you have to try and return it, If no one answers when you try and return it then it is yours.
What are the true crag swag rules?
Post edited at 20:58
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
I hope you already own a helmet. You will need it after this post. Take cover NOW!
James
I hope you already own a helmet. You will need it after this post. Take cover NOW!
James
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
As far as I'm concerned if I find one or two pieces of gear on a crag top middle or bottom and the owner us nowhere to be seen I'm keeping it. I don't care if it's anew expensive cam or a sling. I loose stuff I'm happy for other to find. Make up your own mind youth.
As far as I'm concerned if I find one or two pieces of gear on a crag top middle or bottom and the owner us nowhere to be seen I'm keeping it. I don't care if it's anew expensive cam or a sling. I loose stuff I'm happy for other to find. Make up your own mind youth.
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
Ask yourself some questions. As you obviously have access to this forum...
1. how much effort did you make to return the cams you found to their rightful owner?
2. does every piece of your gear have your name on it?
3. if not, and someone takes it as "swag", are you ok with that?
JW
Ask yourself some questions. As you obviously have access to this forum...
1. how much effort did you make to return the cams you found to their rightful owner?
2. does every piece of your gear have your name on it?
3. if not, and someone takes it as "swag", are you ok with that?
JW
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
One day that sickening feeling of unpacking your gear at home and realising you've left something behind will be yours, and it's quickly replaced with a flood of relief and a complete restoration of your faith in humanity when some kind soul manages to reunite you with it.
I'm new here also, but if you've any shred of a consience you'll only be happy keeping gear found on the crag if you've gone to a reasonable level of effort to reunite it with it's owner. As you're posting on a nationwide niche forum through which you can potentially, through a few degrees of separation at least, reach a huge percentage of climbers in the uk, a 'Lost and found' post on this board should be the bare minimum you go to before considering any finds yours.
I think 'Crag Swag' had a place a few years ago before the spread of internet forums, it would genuinely be difficult to trace an owner in those days, your only hope might have been spotting a notice in a local climbing shop for example. But now when five seconds in front of the computer can give you a notice to almost the whole nation there's no excuse for not even making a small effort.
One day that sickening feeling of unpacking your gear at home and realising you've left something behind will be yours, and it's quickly replaced with a flood of relief and a complete restoration of your faith in humanity when some kind soul manages to reunite you with it.
I'm new here also, but if you've any shred of a consience you'll only be happy keeping gear found on the crag if you've gone to a reasonable level of effort to reunite it with it's owner. As you're posting on a nationwide niche forum through which you can potentially, through a few degrees of separation at least, reach a huge percentage of climbers in the uk, a 'Lost and found' post on this board should be the bare minimum you go to before considering any finds yours.
I think 'Crag Swag' had a place a few years ago before the spread of internet forums, it would genuinely be difficult to trace an owner in those days, your only hope might have been spotting a notice in a local climbing shop for example. But now when five seconds in front of the computer can give you a notice to almost the whole nation there's no excuse for not even making a small effort.
Post edited at 21:23
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
If it is clearly knowingly abandoned (except in the case of an accident), then it is swag.
If it is clearly lost or forgotten, then it is not swag and reasonable steps should be taken to return it.
If in doubt, then it is up to your conscience, but perhaps best to err on the side of it having been lost.
> What are the true crag swag rules?
If it is clearly knowingly abandoned (except in the case of an accident), then it is swag.
If it is clearly lost or forgotten, then it is not swag and reasonable steps should be taken to return it.
If in doubt, then it is up to your conscience, but perhaps best to err on the side of it having been lost.
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
If a climber leaves gear in a wall in order to bail from a route - they have relinquished ownership on the grounds that they would be either too embarrassed to ask for it back or are too shit to deserve it.
Absent mindedly leaving gear at the base of a crag is also a green light. The climber here is losing cognitive function and the gear needs confiscating for their own safety.
Dismantling a belay that is in use would be taking the piss.
If a climber leaves gear in a wall in order to bail from a route - they have relinquished ownership on the grounds that they would be either too embarrassed to ask for it back or are too shit to deserve it.
Absent mindedly leaving gear at the base of a crag is also a green light. The climber here is losing cognitive function and the gear needs confiscating for their own safety.
Dismantling a belay that is in use would be taking the piss.
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
Oh, and just one more thing - if as a result of your threads, you get a message from someone who can identify exactly the cams you "liberated", will you be returning them to their rightful owner?
JW
Oh, and just one more thing - if as a result of your threads, you get a message from someone who can identify exactly the cams you "liberated", will you be returning them to their rightful owner?
JW
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In reply to John Ww:
Of course, Only if they can tell me which cam sizes and how many there were then I think it is fair to give them back
Of course, Only if they can tell me which cam sizes and how many there were then I think it is fair to give them back
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
I don't consider there to be rules about this sort of thing. For instance, when I was younger I had very little money and so would qualify virtually any gear I found on a route as swag, but then the UKC lost and found forum didn't exist then, so the chances of returning gear to its rightful owner was slim. Now I attempt to return anything that I find which looks like it has not gotta coming back later look to it. For instance, I've managed to return a camera that had the owners CV on it, which made returning really easy. That said, I've found a fair amount of stuff that I've posted on here that I've never received a reply about. It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
I don't consider there to be rules about this sort of thing. For instance, when I was younger I had very little money and so would qualify virtually any gear I found on a route as swag, but then the UKC lost and found forum didn't exist then, so the chances of returning gear to its rightful owner was slim. Now I attempt to return anything that I find which looks like it has not gotta coming back later look to it. For instance, I've managed to return a camera that had the owners CV on it, which made returning really easy. That said, I've found a fair amount of stuff that I've posted on here that I've never received a reply about. It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
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In reply to Goucho:
Agreed but we all know that this thread will go on and on and on and.....
> Rob Durran has given the definitive answer IMHO.
Agreed but we all know that this thread will go on and on and on and.....
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In reply to Goucho:
yes- but with the proviso...
if its a high value item, like a cam, then given the means now exists to try to reunite it with its previous owner, then offering to do so, while not obligatory, will be worth considerable positive karma...
cheers
gregor
yes- but with the proviso...
if its a high value item, like a cam, then given the means now exists to try to reunite it with its previous owner, then offering to do so, while not obligatory, will be worth considerable positive karma...
cheers
gregor
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
Robin, you should make a reasonable attempt and wait a reasonable time to see if you can return gear to its owner (who can identify it by description, tape colours or whatever). This does depend on its value, there is little point in doing this for a single wire or even carabiner, if you find them, they are yours, obviously assuming that the owner is not likely to be at the crag while you are there, so it is polite to ask around at the crag-base when you find something.
Gear may be left due to incompetence, misfortune, laziness, benightment or sheer mischance. Consider how you would feel if you had some epic, lost a lot of gear and someone snaffled it. If you find half a rack on some route, give its owner a chance to reclaim it.
Having made reasonable efforts to return gear to its owners, it is yours. But only AFTER you have made these efforts.
Robin, you should make a reasonable attempt and wait a reasonable time to see if you can return gear to its owner (who can identify it by description, tape colours or whatever). This does depend on its value, there is little point in doing this for a single wire or even carabiner, if you find them, they are yours, obviously assuming that the owner is not likely to be at the crag while you are there, so it is polite to ask around at the crag-base when you find something.
Gear may be left due to incompetence, misfortune, laziness, benightment or sheer mischance. Consider how you would feel if you had some epic, lost a lot of gear and someone snaffled it. If you find half a rack on some route, give its owner a chance to reclaim it.
Having made reasonable efforts to return gear to its owners, it is yours. But only AFTER you have made these efforts.
Post edited at 22:19
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I gave up on positive karma years ago
> yes- but with the proviso...
> if its a high value item, like a cam, then given the means now exists to try to reunite it with its previous owner, then offering to do so, while not obligatory, will be worth considerable positive karma...
> cheers
> gregor
I gave up on positive karma years ago
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
You need to be a bit more specific about location/date etc.
You need to be a bit more specific about location/date etc.
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
But isn't karma just quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Has anyone actually found statistically significant evidence for its existence using properly controlled experiments?
No I thought not.
> ...............considerable positive karma...
But isn't karma just quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Has anyone actually found statistically significant evidence for its existence using properly controlled experiments?
No I thought not.
Post edited at 22:36
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In reply to Robert Durran:
course they haven't Robert... because its not real.
but that shouldn't stop us from acting like we believe it could be real. its a nice gesture, and the world is a more pleasant place if people make nice gestures, even when they don't have to.
and, as Mark Collins put it upthread: It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
best wishes
gregor
(current guardian of some lost slings and nuts, and donor of likewise, and a cam, to the greater good- the cam's return was offered, but in the end not taken up, the person that recovered it worked for its recovery and deserved it- was nice to be asked though...)
> But isn't karma just quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo. Has anyone actually found statistically significant evidence for its existence using properly controlled experiments?
> No I thought not.
course they haven't Robert... because its not real.
but that shouldn't stop us from acting like we believe it could be real. its a nice gesture, and the world is a more pleasant place if people make nice gestures, even when they don't have to.
and, as Mark Collins put it upthread: It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
best wishes
gregor
(current guardian of some lost slings and nuts, and donor of likewise, and a cam, to the greater good- the cam's return was offered, but in the end not taken up, the person that recovered it worked for its recovery and deserved it- was nice to be asked though...)
In reply to RobinBrooks:
What are the Crag Swag Rules?
It's a black art, only known to the select few!
What are the Crag Swag Rules?
It's a black art, only known to the select few!
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In reply to broken spectre:
So is that why when I was soloing at Stanage and left my guide book on a rock(it had my name and mobile number in it) that when I got back it had disappeared?(How long does it take to solo a v.diff or severe at Stanage and then come back down?)
So is that why when I was soloing at Stanage and left my guide book on a rock(it had my name and mobile number in it) that when I got back it had disappeared?(How long does it take to solo a v.diff or severe at Stanage and then come back down?)
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
So why not talk about conscience which is a real neurological/psychological state rather than karma which is mystical bollocks.
> course they haven't Robert... because its not real.
> but that shouldn't stop us from acting like we believe it could be real.........
So why not talk about conscience which is a real neurological/psychological state rather than karma which is mystical bollocks.
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In reply to Mark Collins:
It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
Earlier on this year I found a bag of 7-8 pairs of gloves next to the trig point on Slioch and found the owner through this web site.I sent the gloves to him, and I presume that although some of the gloves were not brand new, that he was pleased. That was the right end to the situation.
It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
Earlier on this year I found a bag of 7-8 pairs of gloves next to the trig point on Slioch and found the owner through this web site.I sent the gloves to him, and I presume that although some of the gloves were not brand new, that he was pleased. That was the right end to the situation.
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
If dey aint lookin blud den swipe it. Bags shoes at bottom of crag itz all fair game.
Climbin wallz leeve a nice draw on auto belays 2 which is eazly jacked.
Lol! me climbin bredrin finks I LEEVE tings on 2nd innit!
If dey aint lookin blud den swipe it. Bags shoes at bottom of crag itz all fair game.
Climbin wallz leeve a nice draw on auto belays 2 which is eazly jacked.
Lol! me climbin bredrin finks I LEEVE tings on 2nd innit!
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In reply to RobinBrooks:
If you explained the circumstances in court to a judge are you confident they would conclude that the gear had been abandoned i.e. the previous owner had given up on it and was no longer trying to recover it.
Of course, even if you are sure it was abandoned you might choose to try and return it just because you like being helpful.
> What are the true crag swag rules?
If you explained the circumstances in court to a judge are you confident they would conclude that the gear had been abandoned i.e. the previous owner had given up on it and was no longer trying to recover it.
Of course, even if you are sure it was abandoned you might choose to try and return it just because you like being helpful.
Post edited at 23:13
In reply to Robert Durran:
Perhaps not in a mystical force sense, but in the sense of science seeming to suggest that it's healthier to have positive emotions, and us getting a good feeling from doing the right thing or from being kind, than in that sense it could be seen as karma?
The same goes for being very nice to everybody where possible too, in how one can get more of that in return. I think 'practical karma' exists, most definitely.
Certain very nice individuals who I know spring to mind, who have a lot of people who will help them out of a fix.
> But isn't karma just quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Has anyone actually found statistically significant evidence for its existence using properly controlled experiments?
> No I thought not.
Perhaps not in a mystical force sense, but in the sense of science seeming to suggest that it's healthier to have positive emotions, and us getting a good feeling from doing the right thing or from being kind, than in that sense it could be seen as karma?
The same goes for being very nice to everybody where possible too, in how one can get more of that in return. I think 'practical karma' exists, most definitely.
Certain very nice individuals who I know spring to mind, who have a lot of people who will help them out of a fix.
Post edited at 23:11
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Karma is a heuristic of sorts meaning exactly that kind of principle we use to understand the 99.9% of situations that we encounter in life where statistical analysis is inappropriate as a tool to help us understand, explain or decide things.
> But isn't karma just quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Has anyone actually found statistically significant evidence for its existence using properly controlled experiments?
Karma is a heuristic of sorts meaning exactly that kind of principle we use to understand the 99.9% of situations that we encounter in life where statistical analysis is inappropriate as a tool to help us understand, explain or decide things.
In reply to RobinBrooks:
I had some Americans trying to claim one of my hexes when we hadn't even finished the route. It was a multi pitch in Yosemite and my second hadn't been able to get the hex out. So decided we'd recovered it on the abseil descent. Only 2 pitches further up I spot him coming up behind her with the hex dangling off his harness. He then tries to argue the toss. Complete tosser.
Always make reasonable efforts to reunite gear with its owner.
I had some Americans trying to claim one of my hexes when we hadn't even finished the route. It was a multi pitch in Yosemite and my second hadn't been able to get the hex out. So decided we'd recovered it on the abseil descent. Only 2 pitches further up I spot him coming up behind her with the hex dangling off his harness. He then tries to argue the toss. Complete tosser.
Always make reasonable efforts to reunite gear with its owner.
Post edited at 23:24
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In reply to Robert Durran:
No, it's a little more than that I think
Conscience is understanding, and caring about, the consequences of our actions.
'Karma' is setting out to carry out beneficent actions, on the belief that positive events will happen to you as a result.
And is clearly mystical bollocks on one level- there is no supernatural hand guiding our fares.
But being nice to people is its own reward, which should be enough; and in a small-ish community, if people remember you were nice to them when yyou didn't need to be, they may choose to do something optional which is nice to you in future.
So for purely sociological reasons, it may not be complete bollocks after all...
No, it's a little more than that I think
Conscience is understanding, and caring about, the consequences of our actions.
'Karma' is setting out to carry out beneficent actions, on the belief that positive events will happen to you as a result.
And is clearly mystical bollocks on one level- there is no supernatural hand guiding our fares.
But being nice to people is its own reward, which should be enough; and in a small-ish community, if people remember you were nice to them when yyou didn't need to be, they may choose to do something optional which is nice to you in future.
So for purely sociological reasons, it may not be complete bollocks after all...
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In reply to Timmd:
I imagine conscience might have evolved for just that reason - "do as you would want others to do to you" was probably is good for mutual survival in small groups of hominids living on the edge of the African Savannah. I'd just rather call t conscience rather than anything to do with karma which is always going to have daft mystical overtones.
Anyway, I want people to keep legitimate swag abandoned by me just as I'll keep the swag they have abandoned. My conscience is clear; it's a good, mutually beneficial, community spirited system.
For the record, I've lost 2 cams this year, abandoned 2 more and swagged one; you win some, you lose some......
> The same goes for being very nice to everybody where possible too, in how one can get more of that in return. I think 'practical karma' exists, most definitely.
I imagine conscience might have evolved for just that reason - "do as you would want others to do to you" was probably is good for mutual survival in small groups of hominids living on the edge of the African Savannah. I'd just rather call t conscience rather than anything to do with karma which is always going to have daft mystical overtones.
Anyway, I want people to keep legitimate swag abandoned by me just as I'll keep the swag they have abandoned. My conscience is clear; it's a good, mutually beneficial, community spirited system.
For the record, I've lost 2 cams this year, abandoned 2 more and swagged one; you win some, you lose some......
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Yes, being nice to people does give a nice fuzzy warm feeling, but I would argue that that must simply be an evolved response (what else could it possibly be?) and so must mean that ultimately being nice as a rule* enhances ones own's genes' survival prospects.
*at least within a smallish group (like a local climbing scene?) such as those humans evolved in.
> But being nice to people is its own reward, which should be enough.
Yes, being nice to people does give a nice fuzzy warm feeling, but I would argue that that must simply be an evolved response (what else could it possibly be?) and so must mean that ultimately being nice as a rule* enhances ones own's genes' survival prospects.
*at least within a smallish group (like a local climbing scene?) such as those humans evolved in.
Post edited at 23:39
In reply to RobinBrooks:
So imagine you have an epic one day, (I know you won't as you are above that etc..) so say your second swings off on a traverse and you get off the crag, but he is in pain with a broken arm and noise distracts you... you leave you whole rack at the bottom of the crag? Fair game for anybody else? Or would you like to think that climbers are a little more honest?
For me, if I climb a trade route and find a wire that was probably left by a second who couldn't remove it, then it's fair game. If I find a few, with extenders clipped in still then I'll think someone has had problems and I will try to find it's owner. The same with anything larger, rope, shoes.. etc.. any stuff at the top or bottom or routes.
So people, especially when young and starting out can't afford to easily replace gear, so why steal it?
> I personal think that if you find something at a crag then it is yours
So imagine you have an epic one day, (I know you won't as you are above that etc..) so say your second swings off on a traverse and you get off the crag, but he is in pain with a broken arm and noise distracts you... you leave you whole rack at the bottom of the crag? Fair game for anybody else? Or would you like to think that climbers are a little more honest?
For me, if I climb a trade route and find a wire that was probably left by a second who couldn't remove it, then it's fair game. If I find a few, with extenders clipped in still then I'll think someone has had problems and I will try to find it's owner. The same with anything larger, rope, shoes.. etc.. any stuff at the top or bottom or routes.
So people, especially when young and starting out can't afford to easily replace gear, so why steal it?
Post edited at 08:29
In reply to veteye:
I had a gogarth book taken which even had my name and address on the front cover. It was clearly deliberately stolen, which ties in with the other thread of why Scotland will never had unmanned stocked huts, climbers aren't anymore honest than any other person.
> So is that why when I was soloing at Stanage and left my guide book on a rock(it had my name and mobile number in it) that when I got back it had disappeared?(How long does it take to solo a v.diff or severe at Stanage and then come back down?)
I had a gogarth book taken which even had my name and address on the front cover. It was clearly deliberately stolen, which ties in with the other thread of why Scotland will never had unmanned stocked huts, climbers aren't anymore honest than any other person.
In reply to RBjitm:
Everyone has their own, some have none, some are "flexible". It's between you and your conscience, I very much doubt if there will ever be any legal interference in the process.
Personally if I find a single wire, quickdraw, sling or krab it's mine (although without a PPE trail I won't use it for work).
If I find a cam, screw or entire equalised belay I'll advertise, as that's a big financial hit if you're low-waged.
Just my personal ethic and not definitive.
> What are the true crag swag rules?
Everyone has their own, some have none, some are "flexible". It's between you and your conscience, I very much doubt if there will ever be any legal interference in the process.
Personally if I find a single wire, quickdraw, sling or krab it's mine (although without a PPE trail I won't use it for work).
If I find a cam, screw or entire equalised belay I'll advertise, as that's a big financial hit if you're low-waged.
Just my personal ethic and not definitive.
Post edited at 09:16
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In reply to Brend:
How exactly one can get a notice to almost the whole nation? Even UKC which is popular is used by very few climbers. Facebook? It's quite distributed and unless you are a climbing celebrity it won't get a word far.
> I think 'Crag Swag' had a place a few years ago before the spread of internet forums, it would genuinely be difficult to trace an owner in those days, your only hope might have been spotting a notice in a local climbing shop for example. But now when five seconds in front of the computer can give you a notice to almost the whole nation there's no excuse for not even making a small effort.
How exactly one can get a notice to almost the whole nation? Even UKC which is popular is used by very few climbers. Facebook? It's quite distributed and unless you are a climbing celebrity it won't get a word far.
In reply to RBjitm:
These are the issues that define what type of climbing community we have created. I subscribe to the dont leave rubbish at the crag, help people out, be respectful to land owners and also as part of this beleif if you find gear try to get it back to its owners.
These are the issues that define what type of climbing community we have created. I subscribe to the dont leave rubbish at the crag, help people out, be respectful to land owners and also as part of this beleif if you find gear try to get it back to its owners.
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In reply to summo:
Someone swagged my shoes once... walked back and drove home in climbing shoes. Also had my camera swagged and some have had their car swagged for kit or even in its entirity. The division between abandoned and lost determines theft as Robert described; so for individuals its firstly a moral issue and then an issue of financial common sense (the effort and cost of returning small items is never worth it on a pure economic basis).
Some things do swing the moral line for me. On the negative side name tags annoy me on low value items: I would still return a large rack but it would make me less likely to return a few bits of gear. It strikes me as typical of a problem we have with those with too many rights but not enough responsibilities (if the gear is that important to you make sure you always have the means and time to recover it ). On the other hand I'd happily try harder to return any gear after an accident.
Someone swagged my shoes once... walked back and drove home in climbing shoes. Also had my camera swagged and some have had their car swagged for kit or even in its entirity. The division between abandoned and lost determines theft as Robert described; so for individuals its firstly a moral issue and then an issue of financial common sense (the effort and cost of returning small items is never worth it on a pure economic basis).
Some things do swing the moral line for me. On the negative side name tags annoy me on low value items: I would still return a large rack but it would make me less likely to return a few bits of gear. It strikes me as typical of a problem we have with those with too many rights but not enough responsibilities (if the gear is that important to you make sure you always have the means and time to recover it ). On the other hand I'd happily try harder to return any gear after an accident.
Post edited at 11:09
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In reply to nutme:
If you lose something valuable you would be wise to check UKC. Its a reasonable "local shop window" for climbers.
If you lose something valuable you would be wise to check UKC. Its a reasonable "local shop window" for climbers.
In reply to Offwidth:
I've put the name tags (toughtags) on all my stuff - this just makes it easier to sort out what is who's when climbing with mates.
> Someone swagged my shoes once... > .. On the negative side name tags annoy me on low value items...
I've put the name tags (toughtags) on all my stuff - this just makes it easier to sort out what is who's when climbing with mates.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Agreed, I'm convinced I've lost far more gear to partner-swagging than abandonment!
Agreed, I'm convinced I've lost far more gear to partner-swagging than abandonment!
Post edited at 12:04
In reply to RBjitm:
If its abandoned its swag unless you are feeling generous or in a low karma state.
If its abandoned its swag unless you are feeling generous or in a low karma state.
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In reply to Mark Collins:
Having also returned a camera (by looking through the pictures and realising the owners were on the same campsite as us) I can second that it's far more pleasurable seeing someone reunited with their expensive possesion and photos than getting a free camera.
> I don't consider there to be rules about this sort of thing. For instance, when I was younger I had very little money and so would qualify virtually any gear I found on a route as swag, but then the UKC lost and found forum didn't exist then, so the chances of returning gear to its rightful owner was slim. Now I attempt to return anything that I find which looks like it has not gotta coming back later look to it. For instance, I've managed to return a camera that had the owners CV on it, which made returning really easy. That said, I've found a fair amount of stuff that I've posted on here that I've never received a reply about. It's really rewarding to be able to return stuff to its rightful owner.
Having also returned a camera (by looking through the pictures and realising the owners were on the same campsite as us) I can second that it's far more pleasurable seeing someone reunited with their expensive possesion and photos than getting a free camera.
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In reply to Mark Kemball:
It's a lot cheaper and easier and more robust to use things like paint marks or two types of coloured tape (so its pretty unlikely to clash with other marking schemes). Name tags on things like crabs and nuts is daft.
It's a lot cheaper and easier and more robust to use things like paint marks or two types of coloured tape (so its pretty unlikely to clash with other marking schemes). Name tags on things like crabs and nuts is daft.
In reply to Offwidth:
We'll have to agree to disagree there - I've always found trying to sort out different coloured bits of tape on kit a pain. Also, as often happens, when your mate goes off with a bit of kit in his sack, with a name tag on it he knows who's it is rather than one of the 10 or so people he might have climbed with in the last couple of weeks.
We'll have to agree to disagree there - I've always found trying to sort out different coloured bits of tape on kit a pain. Also, as often happens, when your mate goes off with a bit of kit in his sack, with a name tag on it he knows who's it is rather than one of the 10 or so people he might have climbed with in the last couple of weeks.
In reply to Offwidth:
For me the tags are first and foremost a quick colour ID. Beyond that if someone wants to return stuff it's up to them - I have a phone number and email address on mine but not address. If someone messaged me that they'd got a single wire I'd probably tell them to keep it - getting stuff posted is a faff.
> Name tags on things like crabs and nuts is daft.
For me the tags are first and foremost a quick colour ID. Beyond that if someone wants to return stuff it's up to them - I have a phone number and email address on mine but not address. If someone messaged me that they'd got a single wire I'd probably tell them to keep it - getting stuff posted is a faff.
In reply to RBjitm:
Just as the law dictates you can use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself, I think it's fair enough to expect a reasonable effort for someone to return lost gear. It's not black and white, but most people with a conscience know the difference between shiny cams and a rusty nut. As the OP knows, someone worked hard to earn their gear. It's common decency to respect that.
Remember, you don't HAVE to take it. If you do you are taking on a responsibility.
Just as the law dictates you can use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself, I think it's fair enough to expect a reasonable effort for someone to return lost gear. It's not black and white, but most people with a conscience know the difference between shiny cams and a rusty nut. As the OP knows, someone worked hard to earn their gear. It's common decency to respect that.
Remember, you don't HAVE to take it. If you do you are taking on a responsibility.
1
In reply to RBjitm:
There aren't any. Behave the way you want to/expect others to/what fits with your conscience.
There aren't any. Behave the way you want to/expect others to/what fits with your conscience.
2
In reply to RBjitm:
If there is no name on it and nobody in sight at the Crag then stick up a post on the lost & found forum. If it is not claimed after a week or so and the post has moved to page 4 million 500 thousand of the lost & found forum then keep it. Got myself a pretty decent belayer who I named Melvin that way, some wasteful sod left him at the bottom of the long rock on baggy. Prusiked him out and keep him in my gear store now. He even carries my gear to the crag.
If there is no name on it and nobody in sight at the Crag then stick up a post on the lost & found forum. If it is not claimed after a week or so and the post has moved to page 4 million 500 thousand of the lost & found forum then keep it. Got myself a pretty decent belayer who I named Melvin that way, some wasteful sod left him at the bottom of the long rock on baggy. Prusiked him out and keep him in my gear store now. He even carries my gear to the crag.
3
In reply to petellis:
I moved to Oslo last year. I'm amazed at the honesty when it comes to lost property. I left a belay plate at a popular crag only to find it placed on a visible shelf next time I visited a few weeks later. Just leaving stuff in a visible place seems to be the norm although it does mean more gear lying around at crags. I saw a Grigri hung up on the first bolt of a route for about a month without being 'swagged'.
I moved to Oslo last year. I'm amazed at the honesty when it comes to lost property. I left a belay plate at a popular crag only to find it placed on a visible shelf next time I visited a few weeks later. Just leaving stuff in a visible place seems to be the norm although it does mean more gear lying around at crags. I saw a Grigri hung up on the first bolt of a route for about a month without being 'swagged'.
2
In reply to nutme:
You get noticed by the whole nation when you ask about crag swag rules, It really annoys just about everyone
You get noticed by the whole nation when you ask about crag swag rules, It really annoys just about everyone
In reply to Robert Durran:
This^^^
Is the de facto set of rules.
It even applies to sports routes being worked....not knowingly abandoned, not lost or forgotten.
> If it is clearly knowingly abandoned (except in the case of an accident), then it is swag.
> If it is clearly lost or forgotten, then it is not swag and reasonable steps should be taken to return it.
> If in doubt, then it is up to your conscience, but perhaps best to err on the side of it having been lost.
This^^^
Is the de facto set of rules.
It even applies to sports routes being worked....not knowingly abandoned, not lost or forgotten.
Post edited at 18:04
2
In reply to RBjitm:
The first, and only, rule of crag swag is: don't ask about the rules of crag swag on UKC. Ever.
The first, and only, rule of crag swag is: don't ask about the rules of crag swag on UKC. Ever.
In reply to THE.WALRUS:
The first, and only, rule of crag swag is: don't ask about the rules of crag swag on UKC. Ever.
Think you might have just committed 'Gag Blag'...
The first, and only, rule of crag swag is: don't ask about the rules of crag swag on UKC. Ever.
Think you might have just committed 'Gag Blag'...
In reply to Robert Durran:
Although karma isn't real,surely if everyone acted if it were, it would become real as everyone would be doing positive things for each other.or maybe not
> But isn't karma just quasi-spiritual mumbo jumbo? Has anyone actually found statistically significant evidence for its existence using properly controlled experiments?
> No I thought not.
Although karma isn't real,surely if everyone acted if it were, it would become real as everyone would be doing positive things for each other.or maybe not
1
In reply to Wsdconst:
I'm all for everyone acting as if it did exist, but that does not mean it does exist. Just don't call it karma, because there's nothing supernatural going on.
> Although karma isn't real,surely if everyone acted if it were, it would become real as everyone would be doing positive things for each other.or maybe not
I'm all for everyone acting as if it did exist, but that does not mean it does exist. Just don't call it karma, because there's nothing supernatural going on.
In reply to Robert Durran:
We should call it being nice then,I honk some people may struggle with the concept though .
We should call it being nice then,I honk some people may struggle with the concept though .
In reply to Wsdconst:
Yes, the swag ethic is nice - knowing that your abandoned nut will probably be tidied up, put a smile on someone's face and get put to good use
> We should call it being nice then.
Yes, the swag ethic is nice - knowing that your abandoned nut will probably be tidied up, put a smile on someone's face and get put to good use
Post edited at 21:18
In reply to RBjitm:
There are no rules to crag swag. It's one of the last vestiges of gloriously liberal interpretations in climbing.
Unlike red point, head point, onsight, flash, lead dog, and all the other agonies of style.
It's purely a matter of conscience.
There are no rules to crag swag. It's one of the last vestiges of gloriously liberal interpretations in climbing.
Unlike red point, head point, onsight, flash, lead dog, and all the other agonies of style.
It's purely a matter of conscience.
In reply to RBjitm:
Post on here and on FB groups. No response then its kept. Don't understand why people think its ok not to take 5 minutes to write a few messages that will be seen by 100s of people to help possibly reunite people with their stuff. Its just a nice thing to do.
Post on here and on FB groups. No response then its kept. Don't understand why people think its ok not to take 5 minutes to write a few messages that will be seen by 100s of people to help possibly reunite people with their stuff. Its just a nice thing to do.
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