UKC

Yes, another thread about ice axes ...

I was looking for a little bit of advice on buy a second ice axe or pair of axes; I've currently got a Girvel Air Tech Evo which I've used for both walking and climbing (in concert with a exceptionally heavy Black Diamond axe of indetermninate age which has been borrowed from a friend when required), the Air Tech is 58cm.

Basically, I'm looking to either get a second axe to go with the Air Tech (with a hammer rather than an adze) or a pair which I can use sepcifically for climbing.

My thoughts are:
- I could get a second Evo (53cm, with the hammer, but probably acceptable despite the length diffrerence).
- I could get something more technical than the Evo (would need to take advice here) and carry the pair so I'd still have something to walk with in addition to the more technical option.
- I could get a pair of axes like the DMM Viper, for example and accept that these are for climbing and accept that my Evo is mostly for walking with.

Could anyone offer any thoughts / advice - walking and climbing would be done almost exclusively (at the moment) in UK (Wales and Scotland)?

Thanks!

In reply to DrUmbongo:

I would say it would really depends on what you are wanting to do. If you have ambitions for climbing rather than walking (or as well as) then a pair of axes would be better, something like flys, quarks, vipers etc will all do the job and use your evo for walking. You could probably get away with the evo and something similar for easier climbs but if you are wanting to get on steeper stuff then you may find yourself getting a pair of axes as well so would make sense to do that in the first place

In reply to DrUmbongo:
I certainly would not get another air tech / alpine axe. As soon as you are on tech iv you'll really notice the difference to climbing axes and upgrade anyway!

What's your bd axe like? Is it a climbing axe or an alpine walking axe?

If you've got the cash and are keen to winter climb (say grade III and above) id get a pair deal on something like the bd vipers or similar. Otherwise you could get a single climbing axe (viper etc) to go with your air tech / other axe to see how you like it.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

The BD Axe is a climbing axe, shorter and with a more agressive curve than the Grivel, but I don't think it's something which I want ot use any more than I would have to.

I think that with the above in mind I will look for a pair Vipers or similar as advised, there appear to be some decent deals on at the moment anyway.

Thanks for the advice.

In reply to DrUmbongo:
Personally for uk use and your first axes I'd advise:
- Getting axes with an adze and hammer. Although more & more technical axes are coming without these now a days, I find for banging in pegs and digging belay ledges in harder snow or small resting ledges in ice they can be very useful, you just have to weigh up if it's worth it for you.
- Going leashless from the start, its much less faff and on the easier climbs leashes don't help much at all, so perfect for getting the hang of leashless. For this you need a clip able pommel and also a descent curve (more than the dmm flys IMO) on the axe and preferably an upper grip rest.
- Avoiding Petzl axes. The quark is quite fragile, both the metal on the head (which is quite soft) and the upper grip rest. The metal head I can guarantee as your first climbing axe you will trash quite badly climbing the typically rocky winter climbs we get in the UK, ok possibly mostly cosmetic but mine was borderline a bit bent around the screw hole! The upper grip rest is just plain a bad design it even breaks when soley used on water ice. The nomics whilst good have also had similar issues. Mainly with a poorly designed bottom pommel (did this ever get fixed?) and again quite a soft metal in the head of the axe.
- You should consider which type of handle to get something more formed like the dmm switch or more traditional like the viper. I would say up to about grade V the viper handle style has advantages (better for plunging, support and constructing snow belays), grade V and above the switch style is better. Still both will probably work for you, until you are on very steep ground you won't notice much of an advantage to the more formed handle style.

Thanks again for the reply, I was a bit curious as to the curve on the Flys as well, it doesn't look much greater than my Evo if I'm honest and I have read of some issues with the Petzl axes.

I will look at the handle designs, but given my current ability the normal grip provided by the Viper seems like a good idea, or possibly the DMM Apex which seems have the curve of the switch without the specilized grip - is there a Grivel equivalent to throw into the mix a I have gotten on very well with my Evo so far?

Thanks again.

In reply to DrUmbongo:
Aye the modern fly makes a slightly odd leashless axe as the handle is still too close to vertical when placed, sure the grip rest helps but still, and no upper grip rest, so far from ideal for switching hands on axes ( one of the key advantages of leashless).

If you are after an axe more like like the viper / quark and less like the nomics (still way tech enough to make climbing easier at tech 4 and up but still very good for general mountaineering) then the current grivel offerings looks less good than dmm / grivel / elderid etc... That said I wouldn't rule out the more handled design if it's robust and still ice focussed enough (not just mixed ie not too steep pick angle), especially if it still has a descent spikey pommel that is easy to clip with tethers. I've never understood why the nomic tether holes are half way through the handle, seems like a terrible design descion to me even if you can attach cord tat elsewhere....

In reply to DrUmbongo:

The apex's are brilliant axes, for me it was between them and tech machines which are surprisingly competitively priced. Grivel will always win on the picks for me and general construction, the tech machine is a bomp proof axe. In the end I opted for the sensible option as realistically the machines are a bit too hardcore for my needs. Despite not really liking the colour or the picks of the apex I'm happy with them, prefect all rounder and I don't see them holding me back any time soon.

In reply to DrUmbongo:

As was already mentioned quite a few times already...

For easier climbing, you'll be fine with that Evo you already have. And if you think you'll only going to be climbing something slightly harder, that will also require another axe... well, get almost the shortest one with a hammer (like sub 50cm).

But if you actually want to climb, well I'd get a matching set of proper tools and dedicate the Evo you have for walkin' and easier mountaineering. The good thing is, that pretty much all technical tools sold these days are good... some just are better than others (for certain types of climbing, or being more robust and so on).

If I were to get my 1st pair of technical ice tools now... I'd prolly get the new DB Vipers (or more likely the old orange version at a good discount). DMM might also be an option, and perhaps even Grivel Machine 3.0... All of those non-ergo tools will be perfect for about all climbing (perhaps not extreme drytooling, though), and can even used on easy snow (accessing, descenting or topping out the actual climb). But since you already have a snow-plodding axe... perhaps you might push it a bit and get those ergo-tools (Nomic, Fusion, Fuel, Tech Machine, Switch...).

I only have Fusions these days, and use hiking poles on easier glaciers and snowslopes, granted I might take a BD whippet (self arrest hiking pole) with me to replace one of them normal poles... if the glacier looks rowdy or the snow steep on the descent. That said, I've been messing around on steep snow quite a bit (with skis on the rucksack or on my shoulder) sans crampons and with normal skiing poles... So my perception on what is "safe to do" might differ from those with pure mountaineering background.

In reply to HeMa:

Yeah some of the 'ergo' axes have hammer / adze or options of these at least. Personally at the lower to mid grade UK routes I would find these more useful to have on an axe than not. Of course the extra bend on an ergo axe can make the adze/hammer hard to use as the shaft gets in the way.

I guess the minor disadvantages of an ergo on easy ground (these do depend some what on the handle / pommel design ie how spikey is the pommel for grip and how streamlined the handle for plunging) are generally outweighed by better performance on the technical ground. Still I think at the lower end of the grades (say up to WI3+ / easy V ish) you wouldn't notice much if any difference in the technical performance as compared to a quark / viper overall.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Indeed, and to be honest, the advantages from "ergo" tools I think only start from WI4+/5 or VII onwards. I know for a fact that I could have as easily climbed them VI's I did in Scotland with say Vipers. In fact, Vipers might have been better (easier to pound in pitons).

On ice, the difference might come in quicker (I can climb WI4 without any problems on non "ergo" tools, but do prefer my Fusions already at the grade). Then again, really easy ice (WI3 or less) might be a bit of a PITA with ergo tools. I generally end up using the upper grips or just high dagger on easier terrain.