UKC

Hi Guys,

Just looking for an answer from the fountain of knowledge that is UKC.

Yesterday I was climbing at a climbing wall and was belaying someone who was climbing in a DMM Alpine Centre Harness. This person is new to lead climbing, so was bumbling up some grade 4's.

While belaying an instructor ran other and told me that we had to stop because the harness my climber was wearing was supposedly dangerous. I was confused because I thought that the harness was safe although it isn't the most comfortable harness to wear while leading. When I asked the instructor why it was unsafe out of genuine curiosity I was met with anger and they couldn't answer the question.

So I'm interested, why is it unsafe? I just want to know!

In reply to Joel Perkin:

It might be worth contacting the wall and DMM to find out more, and getting back to the wall again if it turns out not to be unsafe?

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I take it the buckle was properly threaded back on itself?

In reply to Joel Perkin:

The harness was fitted correctly etc etc, but she said that the harness was unsafe because it wasn't a proper sit harness (which it is)...

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I've flicked through the online instruction manual and I couldn't see anything saying you shouldn't lead climb in it.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I think you might find the member of wall staff didn't know what they were talking about!

In reply to Joel Perkin:

If you are certain that it was fitted correctly, all doubled back properly etc then it is totally fine, not the comfiest but perfectly safe.

Sounds to me like the person who told you off is an idiot, or more likely was doing as they were told and that someone senior to then has told them something stupid! I'm all for wall supervisors/floor walkers etc and am happy to be questioned about something however if they can't offer an explanation then it is a clear sign that they have no idea what they are on about!!

In reply to JayPee630:
I wonder what the idiot would say if I rolled up in my 30 year old Whillans?!!!

edit: 37 years

In reply to Joel Perkin:



Unacceptable.

Mick

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I started with the exact same harness, it is uncomfortable to wear,guides use them as they are easier to spot mistakes on them. I'm no expert but I don't think that person has a clue really. They are safe as long as the buckles are done properly.

In reply to JayPee630:


This ^

If anyone tells you not to do something but can't tell you WHY you shouldn't carry on, carry on what you're doing.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Which climbing wall was it?
I've worn one when i forgot my own harness once and although it's not the comfiest it's perfectly safe.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

From what I can tell, it has EN 12277 type C Certification. Therefore, it's considered acceptable to lead with.

In reply to Lusk:

I wonder what the idiot would say if I rolled up in my 30 year old Whillans?!!!

That raises an interesting point.
Your harness is older than what is normally accepted as being safe and I doubt if it has EN 12277 Certification. Could the wall refuse to allow you to use it on those grounds?

In reply to FactorXXX:

I agree, very poor comparison.

A Whillans is well beyond the recommended safe working life of any nylon kit and the wall would be absolutely within their rights to refuse to allow it. Whereas the DMM is a perfectly good current climbing harness and the instructor objecting to it was simply mistaken.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Yes, in fact they'd not be meeting their duty of care if they spotted it and let you carry on using it.

To the OP: although this sounds like a pretty bad thing from the wall management, bear in mind that many floorwalkers are young, just starting out in their career and often have more enthusiasm than knowledge. Usually on minimum wage as well - if you expect experts then also expect to pay more for your wall entry?

In reply to Joel Perkin:






It's perfectly safe.

Maybe we could have some sport if you revealed the name of the wall and we got a load of people to turn up and climb in DMM Alpine harnesses

In reply to danm:

Is it too much too ask that the person who is looking for mistakes/problems/potential catastrophes actually knows what they're doing ? I don't think it is, if they're less competent than an average climber then there's not really any point in them being there.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Is it possible that, rather than being unsafe, the wall has a policy of not allowing lead climbing on any borrowed/hired kit, much the same as most walls don't let you lead on their ropes?

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Yeh I had this recently, forgot my harness so hired a basic one. Then got told off for leading with it! They were great though and gave me a proper harness and let us carry on

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

Shouldn't they mention this when hiring the harness out?

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I thought you were going to say you fell, caught your veg, and now you had a sprout and an orange down there.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

I don't get their logic behind this - all harnesses are tested to the same standards so by default are strong enough to lead climbs.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Could he of thought it was the biners you were using rather than the harness? There has recently been a big recall of some DMM carabiners due to safety issues.

In reply to ranger*goy:

Yeah that was my initial thought but they were fine about it so I wasn't too bothered

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I don't either but hey I got a much comfier harness out of it

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:


This might sound a bit thick but if you can't lead on a hired rope,what would you actually do with it ?

In reply to maybe_si:

Yeah, I would say it's probably better to be correct 99% times (top roping off a single wiregate, back clipping, Z clipping, etc, etc.) than just let anyone do whatever they want. I am afraid that OP's situation falls into that 1%. I thought maybe it's because of the lack of central loop? Not that it's any bad, maybe staff member just assumed it's unsafe?

I am afraid that there's very little you can actually do about, their wall, their rules. You could escalate it to the manager and blah blah, but is it worth it? I suppose you would have done this if you felt like you needed that. Unless he was your client and your authority was compromised in front of a customer, I would just laugh it off and forget about it.

P.s. Some other internet communities on internet start shouting "YEEEERRRR GONNA DIE" once they see less than 3 carabiners at a top-rope anchor, but hey, better safe than sorry.

In reply to PPP:

That's fair enough, but when I've been challenged at walls for doing something which isn't best practice (which is fair enough) they've actually explained what's wrong rather than just coming over to have a go. It's the best way of ensuring someone doesn't do it again, rather than "because I said so" which isn't of any benefit.

The whole thing was probably a misunderstanding, but they could've handled it a lot better. Our uni climbing club used to have some alpine harnesses to lend out to members (until we bought shiny new ones last year) and as long as the buckles were checked they were absolutely fine. The only thing I can think is that someone who is using a harness like that probably isn't that experienced and maybe (in this person's eyes) shouldn't be leading, but that's pure speculation on my part.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

Go back with the harness in hand and ask to speak to the wall manager and/or chief instructor and tell them what happened and get them to ask the member of staff. There either was a genuine issue that needs finding out about, or the staff member needs some training in order to be competent at their job.

In reply to Wsdconst:

This might sound a bit thick but if you can't lead on a hired rope,what would you actually do with it ?

I took it to mean, that walls won't allow you to use their top ropes for leading.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

Why on earth would you speculate that someone using an alpine harness "probably isn't that experienced"?

I've had inexperienced floor walkers pass comment when I've used my alpine harness at the wall. It's a shortsighted opinion and a great way of losing my respect.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

"The only thing I can think is that someone who is using a harness like that probably isn't that experienced and maybe (in this person's eyes) shouldn't be leading,"

Or, you could equally assume that someone withan alpine harness has experience of alpine or winter climbing and is probably a lot more experienced than a lot of the people in the wall.

In reply to ryan p:

" guides use them as they are easier to spot mistakes on them"
I thought the whole point of an alpine style harness was that you can put them on easily while wearing big boots and crampons.
And they are not heavily padded because they assume that in this scenario you would be wearing loads of layers and the padding would only fill with ice/water.

The only problem I could see is that some people attach the rope via a big boa style carabiner and some believe this can cause cross loading. When you should be tying in with a knot through both leg and waste loops.
Some walls didn't like older alpine harnesses because they didn't have belay loops, but modern ones have now so that shouldn't be a issue.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Well I did think about that but I wouldnt be very happy either if people went around my wall pulling all the top ropes,seen as there's no quick draws on top rope routes so in effect there'd be one less route.

In reply to JayPee630:


Possibly, though perhaps we should have both sides of the story before conducting a witch hunt.

In reply to timjones:



She said in 'this person's eyes', it's not her own opinion but speculation as to why it appears wrong to the floor walker, as you've encountered it before yourself it's a plausible explanation.

In reply to Wsdconst:

A lot of walls don't hire out ropes, and won't let you pull down a preplaced toprope and lead on it.

To some extent (and getting back to the OP) there is a (long term) safety issue with this in that the wall management have no real way of monitoring the number, or severity, of falls that have been taken on any of their kit (ropes or harnesses), and so by restricting the use to top roping they can at least be certain none of their equipment can ever be exposed to a fall factor of over 0.5, and in normal use rarely over 0.1

In reply to timjones:

Good points: I both stand corrected and apologise. As I say, it was only speculation as to why someone could jump to a conclusion. I meant no offence to alpine harness users

In reply to Lornajkelly:

Lets be honest, while there is clearly at least a couple of people in this thread who are experienced and use alpine harnesses at the wall, the vast majority of people doing so are borrowing the harness from the wall/guide. Despite the knarly 'alpine' name, for wall users the harness is associated with people who are new the the sport and are more likely to make a mistake or be unsure about something. Your speculation was bang on, some people are a little more sensitive than logical.

Personally, if I had a more comfortable harness, I wouldn't be taking the alpine one to the wall, a pair of shorts doesn't provide the padding of winter layers I'm afraid. Different strokes for different folks though.

Clearly it makes no sense to ban a perfectly good harness from lead climbing - less comfortable or not - and unfortunately we can't be sure of the rationale as none was given. If that's the harness you are wearing and you're capable of leading safely then the floor walker should leave that person be (unless they have other reasons to want a chat).

In reply to gethin_allen:

>


>Ah yes, the "waste loops". They'll be the ones you drop so you can take a dump, right?

In reply to Andy Long:


Indeed,


Edit . Waist loops.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I think there is confusion here between a hire/wall harness and a proper alpine harness.
They are clearly different and I'm not sure why dmm call their "alpine centre harness" thus because it doesn't have the main useful feature of a alpine harness like the BD alpine bod.

The dmm website just describes it as a tough harness for hire situations, nothing about it says alpine other than the title.

Anyway, they are all rated and the person at the wall should know this.

In reply to danm:


I'm thinking that it wouldn't take much for the people who run the wall to buy a range of different harnesses and to explain that (where appropriate) they are safe to use when leading. More knowledge is always a good thing.

In reply to gethin_allen:




Interesting, that's an issue with DMM marketing I guess. They do look similar though. Also, I thought I've also seen BD alpine bods used as a centre harness so the differences might be lost on most...

In reply to Timmd:


Loads of walls have shops associated with them so they wouldn't even need to buy the gear, either that or you'd probably find the staff own a whole selection of gear themselves.

In reply to gethin_allen:

The alpine centre harness is a colour coded version of the original alpine harness which has plenty of benefits for alpine use. It's light, compact, has threadback buckles and doesn't have excessive padding to constrict your movement when worn over multiple layers on long days.

In reply to FreshSlate:


The OP says that the floor walker was critical of the harness rather than the ability of the person wearing it. This is exactly what I have encountered.

It demonstrates that the employee is lacking knowledge, I merely find it mildly amusing that they are so keen to make themselves look a bit of an arse

In reply to Lornajkelly:

No need to apologise. Gear discussions are good, especially on rainy Sunday afternoons

In reply to timjones:


Nothing in the description on the DMM website http://dmmclimbing.com/products/centre-alpine/ suggests why the "centre alpine" harness is suited to alpine climbing, in fact, the first line in the description "This is the original and highly acclaimed centre harness." seems to suggest that they added the term "alpine" just to make it a bit more sexy sounding.
I accept that the lack of padding does make it a bit more suited to alpine use, as I noted in a post way up top, but, this isn't what DMM are selling the harness on and I'm quite sure that this is a side benefit of the fact that thick webbing is far more resilient than nice squashy comfortable foam padding. They are just saying it's tough, cheap and safe, which is enough for a centre harness.
The fact that it only has a single gear loop as standard (more can be bought and added) also suggests strongly that it isn't a proper alpine harness; can you imagine loading all your gear for a long alpine pitch onto one gear loop? and if you were to buy load more loops to thread on you'd be wasting a small fortune when you can buy a BD alpine bod for £30 which comes with 4 loops already and can be simply fitted over crampons etc.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Seriously, this harness used to be sold as a plain DMM Alpine harness without the colour coding.

I can assure you from personal experience that it is great in an alpine.environment. It's even.simpler than the.bod and you either add gear loops when required or use a bandolier

In reply to Ron Rees Davies: Their 'top ropes' are 'semi-static' (so you don't drop too far on stretch, ie hit the ground from 10ft.) A big lead fall on one of these could be quite painful.
Lead ropes, even indoors, need to be dynamic, and the short amount of rope out at the first and second clip reduces the amount of actual stretch, so with a decent belayer, you don't get to the ground!

In reply to timjones:

This ^^

In reply to timjones:


I used one in Greenland in 1991 - I don't think they've changed the design since at least then so they are classics! But I remember wearing it all day rubbed a blister under the harness against my pelvis. Never had that with another harness since. I think it was where the two big bits of webbing are sewn together. Soon after that trip I got my own Alpine Bod and used it for a decade, so I guess I'd say I prefer that one, although Alpine Bods aren't that comfy when abbing and such. Happy that harness have moved on a bit since then!

In reply to Joel Perkin:
Could it just be an inexperienced / slightly over cautious worker / manager worried about the single tie-in point on this style of harness, again quite unfounded as the single tie in point is rated to do it's job. A fixation with "redundancy"* and being more used to threading the rope through two loops, following the path of the belay loop.

* Seen folk attach to a very alive two foot diameter tree, then go looking for another anchor "to back it up".

PS the main attraction of these in commercial situations is their flexibility, the regular size accommodates waists from 16 - 49 inches.

In reply to Hyphin:

It isn't the tree they are backing up, but other possible failures/cockups. I don't often do it myself, but I do understand the thinking.

In reply to TobyA:

I can't say I ever got blisters from mine. Maybe I'm just naturally better padded

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Just out of curiosity, and having not been to a wall for donkeys years, what would be the reaction if you turned up and just tied the rope around your waist?

In reply to gethin_allen:

It's called an alpine harness because of the horizontal belay loop, that's all.

In reply to Joel Perkin:
My first harness was a Troll waist belt with a sling for leg loops - I wonder whether that would be acceptable - probably not as the belt is 40 years old even though the sling could be new.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Thanks for all your responses.

I was climbing with equipment from my centre, belaying a friend also climbing with an MIA present. The harness was correctly fitted and he was leading under close supervision clipping correctly and safely.

I learnt to lead in a DMM Alpine Centre Harness and as I've said, I know they aren't the most comfortable, you aren't going to cause any damage.

Her argument was very much just that our harness isn't safe for leading. She did at one point say "Its not a proper sit harness" but this baffled me. She wasn't young either, she could have years of experience.

Maybe she just didn't like me!

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I'd have questioned her in more detail, attempted to figure out where this misguided muppetry came from?!

In reply to Joel Perkin:


Maybe she fancied you.

In reply to maybe_si:


Maybe as she's clearly not here to defend herself, or give her side of the story, you should all give it a rest?

In reply to maybe_si:

Tried this, was met with anger... So as I always say "Never argue with an idiot, there's no point"

I'm glad that everyone here thinks that what I was doing wasn't totally unsafe and I will continue teaching friends and clients basic climbing skills in DMM Alpine Centre Harnesses.

Thanks for all your feedback.

In reply to Neil Williams:


That is a very simplistic definition of an alpine harness.

Where did you hear that?

In reply to timjones:

OK, a bit of an oversimplification. My point was more that those centre harnesses aren't really designed specifically for alpine use (not that you couldn't do so) but are called that because of their configuration with the horizontal belay loop and other features normally ascribed to "alpine style" harnesses.

I have mixed views on them for centre use - they certainly are nice and simple, but they also can confuse people when they move onto regular harnesses (a not uncommon thing to see is novices tying only into their waist belt) because everything is oriented a bit differently.

In reply to Lusk:


Well, if it was me I'd say "I'm not sure thats safe to to take a big lead fall on. Would you demonstrate, to reassure me?" Then I'd set the phone to video....

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Maybe you should write to DMM, informing them that wall X states that their harness is unsafe and must not be used.
Give them all the details and ask them why they are selling an unsafe piece of equipment.
Point out that this wall are declaring DMM harnesses to be dangerous and could kill.
(You could even copy your trading standard department to up the ante - making sure that DMM know this).
Make sure that they have all the details to get in touch with the wall in question, and then step back and watch the fun as DMM (or their lawyers) "discuss the matter" with said wall.

In reply to Neil Williams:


I thought we'd already been around this loop yesterday

This design of harness was used as an alpine harness before it colour coded for marketing as a centre harness.


TBB if they're not going to read the instructions when they buy their own harness then the issue doesn't lie with the design of harnesses that they have used previously!

In reply to Joel Perkin: This debate is all very well, but have you been back to the wall to ask them what their "instructor" was talking about. Perhaps you could do that and save us all a lot of time as this is a bit pointless without that information. Also, which wall was it?

In reply to fred99:

Maybe you should write to DMM, informing them that wall X states that their harness is unsafe and must not be used.
Give them all the details and ask them why they are selling an unsafe piece of equipment.
Point out that this wall are declaring DMM harnesses to be dangerous and could kill.
(You could even copy your trading standard department to up the ante - making sure that DMM know this).
Make sure that they have all the details to get in touch with the wall in question, and then step back and watch the fun as DMM (or their lawyers) "discuss the matter" with said wall.

Alternatively, you could put it down to the inexperience of an instructor, shrug your shoulders and carry on as normal...

In reply to timjones:

I know. My point was against someone upthread who suggested it shouldn't be called an Alpine harness. I am contending that it is perfectly appropriate that it is called that because it is of that style, quite separate from what its origins were.

The reason for keeping that in the name is because there also exist centre harnesses that are not of the Alpine style (i.e. with the regular vertical belay loop).


True, though one has to be realistic - and if your aim is to train competent independent climbers to make sure they are aware of things like that before declaring them competent, as misunderstandings can have dangerous[1] results.

[1] OK, tying in through the waist belt or belay loop is unlikely to kill anyone, though the former is uncomfortable. But there are other examples - tying into something like a gear loop is of course dangerous.

In reply to Neil Williams:


When I first climbed, in an intro to climbing wall course, not tying into a gear loop and the differences in tying in between the DMM Alpine Centre harnesses (which we were all in) and "the other type" were covered. (As was what a grigri is and other types of belay device in common use.)

In reply to climbwhenready:

Not saying some walls don't, it's just that it perhaps should be emphasized more.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm agreeing with you

In reply to FactorXXX:

The problem is that these completely inexperienced people have the power to throw people out of a wall for breaches of elf and safety.
They can (and do) also impose their views on beginners and the inexperienced.
I see no reason why they should be allowed to defame a company's product(s) without some recourse.
I've seen far too many of these newly qualified idiots who claim to know it all, whilst actually knowing bugger-all, and it's these who throw their weight about, not the knowledgeable.
It's early in the new student year, so at certain walls we now have a new batch of just qualified CWA holders who have done it to earn beer money or similar at the campus (or nearest to campus) wall.

In reply to fred99:


That is surely an issue for wall management?

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Sounds to me like someone unfamiliar with your mate's harness made a genuine mistake then blustered and bullied when challenged. Standard practice
jk

In reply to Joel Perkin:

Yonks ago there was a harness that was for toprope only (both climbing & belaying), I think it was a DMM harness (I've still got one in the garage somewhere).

In reply to jkarran:

Not blustered or bullied, just asked out of genuine curiosity... however all that said, when I think about things, seeing as said persons job is to ensure safety and identify safety issues, especially with possible the most widely used centre harness is the UK, then they should be familiar with the harness. Even more so if the climbing wall also uses these harnesses.

In reply to Neil Williams:



In which case you need to show them the range of options available and how to tie in each one rather than just using the option that you guess they are most likely to use.

In reply to Joel Perkin:


I think you misread the post. He meant the person who told you not to use it.

In reply to Joel Perkin:

I wasn't implying the bluster was on your part.
Jk

In reply to Neil William:
Wall management are hardly going to admit that their staff don't know what they're talking about are they.
Plus incompetence/lack of knowledge on the part of their staff infers that wall management may not have trained or supervised said staff correctly.
In my experience the staff reflect the management;
Good management = good staff,
Poor staff = poor management.

In reply to Lusk:


There was a couple of elderly gentlemen at the Kendal Wall last week in a couple of historic Troll Sit harnesses of about the same era. They were very well worn (climbers and harnesses!), but were a perfect match for their Troll climbing trousers and breeches.

I would have laughed at them, but they were climbing much harder than me.