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Ey up, been tying on to my harness with a double bowline with yosemite finish since i could lead (bout 8 months ) always been happy and felt fine with it until somebody called it a death knot other day...looked into it abit more and got me thinking i want to have a look into other bowline knots.....any good suggestions?
11
In reply to littlejon86:
No offence, but... If you were told by a stranger that your knot is unsafe and you have no idea whether it's true or not, maybe you shouldn't be using it? I don't know anyone who would advise a beginner to tie a bowline. I honestly have no idea how to tie it and how to check it as figure 8 is the current standard and it's fairly stupid proof. I can confirm that it's all good by not inspecting it, just a quick peek does the job.
No offence, but... If you were told by a stranger that your knot is unsafe and you have no idea whether it's true or not, maybe you shouldn't be using it? I don't know anyone who would advise a beginner to tie a bowline. I honestly have no idea how to tie it and how to check it as figure 8 is the current standard and it's fairly stupid proof. I can confirm that it's all good by not inspecting it, just a quick peek does the job.
2
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In reply to PPP:
Well done. You've now guaranteed at least a hundred posts of FOE/bowline you'll die/no you won't posts!
Well done. You've now guaranteed at least a hundred posts of FOE/bowline you'll die/no you won't posts!
8
In reply to littlejon86:
I had a quick google out of curiosity...
Found this:
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/rethinking-the-double-loop-bowline
I had a quick google out of curiosity...
Found this:
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/rethinking-the-double-loop-bowline
1
1
In reply to Oceanrower:
Few facts.
1/ I use an End Bound Single Bowline.
2/ I will die
3/ Only 98 more posts to go....................aaargh.
Few facts.
1/ I use an End Bound Single Bowline.
2/ I will die
3/ Only 98 more posts to go....................aaargh.
5
In reply to Oceanrower:
That's the point, FOE is just troll-proof knot. There's nothing to discuss about it, it works and it does not fail in a given situation. Well... Let's better talk about figure of 8 rolling if loaded sideways and some weird finishes (like tucking the rope back in the knot).
That's the point, FOE is just troll-proof knot. There's nothing to discuss about it, it works and it does not fail in a given situation. Well... Let's better talk about figure of 8 rolling if loaded sideways and some weird finishes (like tucking the rope back in the knot).
In reply to PPP:
Only used a foe a few times then met a 66 year old climber who showed me the double bowline and always used it since...went on the idea hes been climbing longer than ive been alive and took alot of falls on it and is still alive. ..nice to see the range of sarcy comments is still on here from the keyboard hardmen...
Only used a foe a few times then met a 66 year old climber who showed me the double bowline and always used it since...went on the idea hes been climbing longer than ive been alive and took alot of falls on it and is still alive. ..nice to see the range of sarcy comments is still on here from the keyboard hardmen...
3
In reply to littlejon86:
I'd second what PPP said above - use a knot that *you* know is safe and won't start to doubt if somebody tells you otherwise.
There's nothing wrong with a bowline, but know how to tie in a couple of ways, and what the limitations of each knot are.
For what it's worth I tend to use a FOE for trad, mountain and alpine climbing as I know it won't work loose over time. I often use a (simple) bowline sport climbing, or climbing indoors as it's easier to untie once loaded, slightly quicker to tie in, and there's no chance of trying to pull the rope through the lower off with a knot still in it.
It doesn't really matter, but if you're the kind of person who gets spooked by what others might say (it sounds like this might be at least partly true judging from the OP) then nobody will ever question you if you use a FOE.
HTH
I'd second what PPP said above - use a knot that *you* know is safe and won't start to doubt if somebody tells you otherwise.
There's nothing wrong with a bowline, but know how to tie in a couple of ways, and what the limitations of each knot are.
For what it's worth I tend to use a FOE for trad, mountain and alpine climbing as I know it won't work loose over time. I often use a (simple) bowline sport climbing, or climbing indoors as it's easier to untie once loaded, slightly quicker to tie in, and there's no chance of trying to pull the rope through the lower off with a knot still in it.
It doesn't really matter, but if you're the kind of person who gets spooked by what others might say (it sounds like this might be at least partly true judging from the OP) then nobody will ever question you if you use a FOE.
HTH
8
In reply to littlejon86:
Being a 70 year old climber who's climbed for 50 of them I'll chuck my five pennorth in: use a fig 8. Fool proof.
> Only used a foe a few times then met a 66 year old climber who showed me the double bowline and always used it since...went on the idea hes been climbing longer than ive been alive
Being a 70 year old climber who's climbed for 50 of them I'll chuck my five pennorth in: use a fig 8. Fool proof.
8
In reply to littlejon86:
I started with a bowline, because I started climbing with hawser-laid rope. I turned to a FOE when I started to use smooth kernmantel ropes.
Most FOEs I see are travesties of the real thing, poorly laid approximations of an FOE that jam up when fallen upon and are hard to untie. On the other hand, a properly laid FOE can be broken and unties relatively easily, although not as easily as a bowline. Frankly, I consider this to be a good thing.
PS that video in the 'Why the knot' has a classic example of a shoddy FOE - a ludicrous anchor and a shambles of an FOE at the heart of his arrangement.
I started with a bowline, because I started climbing with hawser-laid rope. I turned to a FOE when I started to use smooth kernmantel ropes.
Most FOEs I see are travesties of the real thing, poorly laid approximations of an FOE that jam up when fallen upon and are hard to untie. On the other hand, a properly laid FOE can be broken and unties relatively easily, although not as easily as a bowline. Frankly, I consider this to be a good thing.
PS that video in the 'Why the knot' has a classic example of a shoddy FOE - a ludicrous anchor and a shambles of an FOE at the heart of his arrangement.
Post edited at 09:46
1
In reply to nniff:
Indeed...
That said I pick the knot to suit the need. If I'm projectin a hard route where falling is highly likely, I will prolly tie in with a bowline (normal one at that, but with a backup). Then again, most of the time normal retraced FOE is more than enough.
Even well dressed retraced FOE starts to get a major PITA with the new thin singles (~9mm) or triple rated dealios.
> Most FOEs I see are travesties of the real thing, poorly laid approximations of an FOE that jam up when fallen upon and are hard to untie. On the other hand, a properly laid FOE can be broken and unties relatively easily, although not as easily as a bowline.
Indeed...
That said I pick the knot to suit the need. If I'm projectin a hard route where falling is highly likely, I will prolly tie in with a bowline (normal one at that, but with a backup). Then again, most of the time normal retraced FOE is more than enough.
Even well dressed retraced FOE starts to get a major PITA with the new thin singles (~9mm) or triple rated dealios.
1
In reply to littlejon86:
I personally tie in using the bowline with stopper occasionally and joke about it being a death knot. If tied correctly it is nothing of the sort (the risk lies in it being easier to get wrong and less resilient to being got wrong than the Figure 8 follow-through with stopper). Perhaps the other person was joking?
I personally tie in using the bowline with stopper occasionally and joke about it being a death knot. If tied correctly it is nothing of the sort (the risk lies in it being easier to get wrong and less resilient to being got wrong than the Figure 8 follow-through with stopper). Perhaps the other person was joking?
2
In reply to PPP:
I would happily advise a beginner to use a bowline - especially if they are doing a lot of indoor climbing. Leant how to tie it properly and check it - same as for the figure of eight really!
Chris
Like this: youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&
> I don't know anyone who would advise a beginner to tie a bowline.
I would happily advise a beginner to use a bowline - especially if they are doing a lot of indoor climbing. Leant how to tie it properly and check it - same as for the figure of eight really!
Chris
Like this: youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&
4
In reply to nniff:
The key is that even a badly tied Fig 8 will generally hold. With some (thick centre) ropes even putting the end through a reasonably tight fig 8 *once* holds (i.e. not following it through) - try it! (Not from a great height, obviously). So if you get it a bit wrong it'll still probably hold, and the stopper would hold on its own.
Not that you should get it wrong, but if you do...
The key is that even a badly tied Fig 8 will generally hold. With some (thick centre) ropes even putting the end through a reasonably tight fig 8 *once* holds (i.e. not following it through) - try it! (Not from a great height, obviously). So if you get it a bit wrong it'll still probably hold, and the stopper would hold on its own.
Not that you should get it wrong, but if you do...
Post edited at 09:57
2
In reply to littlejon86:
The water bowline tied via the jedi/slipknot method is my favourite 'other' knot (look up the jedi/slipknot form of a normal bowline, by far the best way to tie it - saves all the confusion). Very secure (it's a lot more resistant to working loose than a normal bowline).
However 95% of the time, I will still tie a fig8
The water bowline tied via the jedi/slipknot method is my favourite 'other' knot (look up the jedi/slipknot form of a normal bowline, by far the best way to tie it - saves all the confusion). Very secure (it's a lot more resistant to working loose than a normal bowline).
However 95% of the time, I will still tie a fig8
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I was almost totally distracted from the content of the video by the unprepossessing sight of the demonstrator's "family jewels" bunched up, it seems, by a combination of ill fitting trousers and his harness!
> I would happily advise a beginner to use a bowline - especially if they are doing a lot of indoor climbing. Leant how to tie it properly and check it - same as for the figure of eight really!
> Chris
> Like this: youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&
I was almost totally distracted from the content of the video by the unprepossessing sight of the demonstrator's "family jewels" bunched up, it seems, by a combination of ill fitting trousers and his harness!
2
1
In reply to littlejon86:
The bowline debate is such a strange part of climbing culture. I use the FOE (as it seems it's abbreviated to) but wouldn't have a problem with using a bowline or variation on that knot either. It's just a knot that in most other sports/past times/proffesions involving rope work people seem to manage. As climbers we can make judgements on the strength of anchors, make complex belays, assess avalanche risk and a host of complicated tasks we rest our lives upon...but mention a bowline and suddenly you enter this weird debate on it's safety. It's just a knot and not a particularly difficult one at that.
The bowline debate is such a strange part of climbing culture. I use the FOE (as it seems it's abbreviated to) but wouldn't have a problem with using a bowline or variation on that knot either. It's just a knot that in most other sports/past times/proffesions involving rope work people seem to manage. As climbers we can make judgements on the strength of anchors, make complex belays, assess avalanche risk and a host of complicated tasks we rest our lives upon...but mention a bowline and suddenly you enter this weird debate on it's safety. It's just a knot and not a particularly difficult one at that.
8
In reply to Neil Williams:
If I were you I'd upgrade that stopper occasionally to stopper every time.
> I personally tie in using the bowline with stopper occasionally
If I were you I'd upgrade that stopper occasionally to stopper every time.
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1
2
In reply to littlejon86:
The Bowline is decried by people who don't know how to tie it.
Like any knot, tied properly it is perfectly safe, not tied properly -it isn't.
(And I know someone who failed to tie an FOE properly and decked it at a climbing wall !).
The one advantage of a Bowline over an FOE is that you can tie the Bowline directly around the waist if scrambling or rescuing someone, when you don't have a harness.
I use both.
The Bowline is decried by people who don't know how to tie it.
Like any knot, tied properly it is perfectly safe, not tied properly -it isn't.
(And I know someone who failed to tie an FOE properly and decked it at a climbing wall !).
The one advantage of a Bowline over an FOE is that you can tie the Bowline directly around the waist if scrambling or rescuing someone, when you don't have a harness.
I use both.
Post edited at 10:53
3
In reply to fred99:
Correct - the thing is a Fig 8 is more resilient to being tied wrongly and is easier to check. Those things make it a bit safer overall.
A correctly tied bowline with stopper is not appreciably more or less safe than a correctly tied Fig 8 with either stopper or adequate tail (the main reason for the stopper is to ensure adequate tail).
It can happen. The biggest risk to me appears to be people coming down off a route, starting to untie, then deciding to have another go without retying. I've never got close to forgetting to tie in at the start, I have forgotten to put the stopper knot back in on a Fig 8 in that situation. If it was a bowline that could have resulted in decking.
You can do that with a follow through fig 8 instead. Indeed, the one time I've needed to do that (got in an awkward position on a scramble and asked for a rope from above), the rope came down with a Fig 8 already in, so I followed it through.
You can of course do a one handed bowline if needs be
For me the main two reasons to use a bowline are that it's easier to untie after a fall, and it keeps the tail out of the way nicely.
> The Bowline is decried by people who don't know how to tie it.
>> Like any knot, tied properly it is perfectly safe, not tied properly -it isn't.
Correct - the thing is a Fig 8 is more resilient to being tied wrongly and is easier to check. Those things make it a bit safer overall.
A correctly tied bowline with stopper is not appreciably more or less safe than a correctly tied Fig 8 with either stopper or adequate tail (the main reason for the stopper is to ensure adequate tail).
> (And I know someone who failed to tie an FOE properly and decked it at a climbing wall !).
It can happen. The biggest risk to me appears to be people coming down off a route, starting to untie, then deciding to have another go without retying. I've never got close to forgetting to tie in at the start, I have forgotten to put the stopper knot back in on a Fig 8 in that situation. If it was a bowline that could have resulted in decking.
> The one advantage of a Bowline over an FOE is that you can tie the Bowline directly around the waist if scrambling or rescuing someone, when you don't have a harness.
You can do that with a follow through fig 8 instead. Indeed, the one time I've needed to do that (got in an awkward position on a scramble and asked for a rope from above), the rope came down with a Fig 8 already in, so I followed it through.
You can of course do a one handed bowline if needs be
For me the main two reasons to use a bowline are that it's easier to untie after a fall, and it keeps the tail out of the way nicely.
Post edited at 11:09
1
In reply to littlejon86:
If you want to tie in with some sort of Bowline I would (and occasionally do) personally plump for a simple bowline with a double fisherman's stopper. All the fancy finished bowlines I've tried I've occasionally managed to mess up while learning them in some fairly subtle way that doesn't fall apart instantly but does render them useless. You can't do that with a simple one.
Ninety nine percent of the time I tie in with a fig8. It's simple, it works I can tie it in my sleep and on the day complacency catches up with me and I inevitably do cock one up it'll very probably still work anyway.
jk
If you want to tie in with some sort of Bowline I would (and occasionally do) personally plump for a simple bowline with a double fisherman's stopper. All the fancy finished bowlines I've tried I've occasionally managed to mess up while learning them in some fairly subtle way that doesn't fall apart instantly but does render them useless. You can't do that with a simple one.
Ninety nine percent of the time I tie in with a fig8. It's simple, it works I can tie it in my sleep and on the day complacency catches up with me and I inevitably do cock one up it'll very probably still work anyway.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Ninety nine percent of the time I tie in with a bowline. It's simple, it works, I can tie it in my sleep and on the day complacency catches up with me and I inevitably do cock one up it'll very probably still work anyway as I invariably tie a stopper.
> Ninety nine percent of the time I tie in with a fig8. It's simple, it works, I can tie it in my sleep and on the day complacency catches up with me and I inevitably do cock one up it'll very probably still work anyway.
Ninety nine percent of the time I tie in with a bowline. It's simple, it works, I can tie it in my sleep and on the day complacency catches up with me and I inevitably do cock one up it'll very probably still work anyway as I invariably tie a stopper.
1
In reply to john arran:
Can't argue with that if that's the one you've ended up with hardwired into your brain
jk
Can't argue with that if that's the one you've ended up with hardwired into your brain
jk
In reply to fred99:
Wasn't it one of the Huber brothers whose knot had come undone whilst half way up a multi-pitch had to (re-?)tie a bowline with one hand?
IMO, the significant extract to take away from the R&I article is the sentence: “A knot is never ‘nearly right,’ it is either exactly right, or hopelessly wrong … ”
> The one advantage of a Bowline over an FOE is that you can tie the Bowline directly around the waist if scrambling or rescuing someone, when you don't have a harness.
Wasn't it one of the Huber brothers whose knot had come undone whilst half way up a multi-pitch had to (re-?)tie a bowline with one hand?
IMO, the significant extract to take away from the R&I article is the sentence: “A knot is never ‘nearly right,’ it is either exactly right, or hopelessly wrong … ”
In reply to littlejon86:
It's invariably a simple single bowline with a stopper inside the loop for me, I like the way the tail hangs down instead of sticking up.
But since that's already been suggested several times, I'll recommend something that hasn't been mentioned so far - re-threaded bowline on the bight. Mega secure, and there are two loops through your harness so the "redundancy" junkies would have to love that. ;O)
It's invariably a simple single bowline with a stopper inside the loop for me, I like the way the tail hangs down instead of sticking up.
But since that's already been suggested several times, I'll recommend something that hasn't been mentioned so far - re-threaded bowline on the bight. Mega secure, and there are two loops through your harness so the "redundancy" junkies would have to love that. ;O)
4
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
You come a close second,I do fig 8,bowline,fig 8,triple fisher men's,bowline,reef,sheep shank,granny,fig 9 and finish it with a clove hitch round my cock,it's really safe but you need a long rope.
> If I finish my Bowline with a Fig8, do I win UKC?
You come a close second,I do fig 8,bowline,fig 8,triple fisher men's,bowline,reef,sheep shank,granny,fig 9 and finish it with a clove hitch round my cock,it's really safe but you need a long rope.
1
In reply to john arran:
Its a shame you cant tell my mate pete this, we are nearly at the aniversary of his death at Awesome Walls
Manchester A causal factor of his fatal accident was a mistied Bowline.
A Buddy check is a vital part of the climbing routine that could prevent such an accident, the facts stand for theselves that in climbing walls two experienced climbers have been killed mistieing bowlines and none have with Fo8s.
Its a shame you cant tell my mate pete this, we are nearly at the aniversary of his death at Awesome Walls
Manchester A causal factor of his fatal accident was a mistied Bowline.
A Buddy check is a vital part of the climbing routine that could prevent such an accident, the facts stand for theselves that in climbing walls two experienced climbers have been killed mistieing bowlines and none have with Fo8s.
Post edited at 20:47
1
4
In reply to muppetfilter:
It would be inappropriate to speculate on the various possible explanations for that statistic that don't involve choice of knot. I would, however,take issue with linking it to buddy-checking. Any buddy check would easily identify the lack of a stopper knot, which by itself should ordinarily be enough to hold a fall even if the whole knot it was supporting were to collapse. So it's almost inconceivable that buddy checking was happening.
It's unfortunate but if anyone doesn't tie their knot correctly and it isn't checked, it's entirely possible it could fail, whatever knot it was intended to be, f8 included.
It would be inappropriate to speculate on the various possible explanations for that statistic that don't involve choice of knot. I would, however,take issue with linking it to buddy-checking. Any buddy check would easily identify the lack of a stopper knot, which by itself should ordinarily be enough to hold a fall even if the whole knot it was supporting were to collapse. So it's almost inconceivable that buddy checking was happening.
It's unfortunate but if anyone doesn't tie their knot correctly and it isn't checked, it's entirely possible it could fail, whatever knot it was intended to be, f8 included.
6
In reply to Oceanrower:
Any knot you can do, I can do safer!
I can do any knot safer than you!
No you can't!
Yes I can!
No you can't!
Yes I can!
etc.
> Well done. You've now guaranteed at least a hundred posts of FOE/bowline you'll die/no you won't posts!
Any knot you can do, I can do safer!
I can do any knot safer than you!
No you can't!
Yes I can!
No you can't!
Yes I can!
etc.
1
In reply to muppetfilter:
Sorry to hear.
Indeed. That said the few accidendents that have happened here in Finland (luckily non fatal) on indoors walls have both been because of mistied/ not finished Fo8'd.
To summarize, what ever knot is used, make sure it is correct and remember the partner check.
If my partner doesn't know the bowline variations I use, I'll generally just tie in with a Fo8 (which is the most common knot used and tought here).
> Its a shame you cant tell my mate pete this, we are nearly at the aniversary of his death at Awesome Walls Manchester A causal factor of his fatal accident was a mistied Bowline.
Sorry to hear.
> A Buddy check is a vital part of the climbing routine that could prevent such an accident, the facts stand for theselves that in climbing walls two experienced climbers have been killed mistieing bowlines and none have with Fo8s.
Indeed. That said the few accidendents that have happened here in Finland (luckily non fatal) on indoors walls have both been because of mistied/ not finished Fo8'd.
To summarize, what ever knot is used, make sure it is correct and remember the partner check.
If my partner doesn't know the bowline variations I use, I'll generally just tie in with a Fo8 (which is the most common knot used and tought here).
2
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