UKC

Is there a place with accident reports for belaying incidents?

I'm sure i've come across one before, possibly BMC website somewhere. The reason being, when you see people belaying poorly/dangerously (e.g. grigri with no hands on the dead rope), they tend to be (sometimes) very adament that what they're doing is totally fine, and the 'proper way' is just overkill, and that there aren't any real accidents, just scaremongering. With the old 'i've done it this way for x years and never killed my mate' type remarks.

Would be useful and possibly life saving to point them in the direction of some actual evidence, that it only takes that one time, with certain conditions to produce a lethal accident.


Winds me up as a climber when i'm resting, to turn round and see the belayer not holding onto the rope on a grigri. I know logically, once it's locked up with my weight on it, it shouldn't slip. But how hard is it to just have the dead rope in your hand, compared to letting it dangle loose?

Anyone else feel the same?
I think it's similar to driving around in a car without a seatbelt on. I've driven for 10 years and never crashed, so why should i wear a seatbelt. It's just pointless and annoying. *Then one time you crash and you're dead* Good one. Definitely worth the ten years of burden free comfort...

In reply to CharlieMack:

Agree wholeheartedly. I've stopped climbing with people because they wouldn't belay me how I asked, thinking they knew best and "It's never done me any harm" not holding the rope or letting me back down with just one hand on the rope when using a bug.
I find if I don't feel safe with the belayer I won't climb to my best. Luckily I've been climbing recently with a lad who is very attentive and it makes me climb better and I'm more willing to go for things knowing he's got his head screwed on at the bottom.

In reply to CharlieMack:
The Americans may be backwards in many ways (healthcare, metric system), but they are by far ahead with their accident reporting:

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accident-reports

These accident reports are a very valuable resource, and really show how often the same errors crop up again and again. Probably the most common accident in the link is abseiling off the ends of the rope - and by knowing that you can make yourself more vigilant to tying knots in your abseil rope when it doesn't reach the ground.
I definitely agree that a UK resource would be invaluable. I'm pretty sure there is an avalanche one, I'll see if I can find it - edit: i think this is what I'm thinking of: http://www.sais.gov.uk/sais-annual-reports/

In reply to CharlieMack:

Are you referring to your belayer or others you see about at walls etc?

If it's your belayer, its a very short simple conversation - "I know its a hard habit to break, but I don't feel safe with you belaying like that, please do it correctly or we wont be climbing together again"

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Not my belayers, they'd be well scolded.

I work at indoor walls through winter and outdoors in summer, so come across many poor/ dangerous belayers.
As such I've got a professional obligation to mention it to them, which is often met with hostility even though I try to be as polite as possible.
Though usually after I mention to their climber what they're doing, the climber does the telling off anyway.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Very interesting resource. Thanks for the link.

In reply to Boris\'s Johnson:


What's a "bug"? If this is a serious discussion of safety, why use words that nobody understands?

In reply to SenzuBean:

Far ahead ? Really?? A few examples of Brits supposedly not analysing accidents:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-dangerous-are-climbing-and-hill-walking

http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/information-centre/incident-statistics

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/research.asp

http://www.ldsamra.org.uk/accidents.aspx

http://www.mountain-training.org/latest-news/2014-incidents-and-near-misses

Doesn't stop people complaining about it not happening of course.

The biggest avoidable cause of fatalities in the UK is almost certainly people who think SAIS reports don't apply to them; superb local safety information as good as anywhere, all too often plain ignored.

In reply to silhouette:


Its a belay device: http://dmmclimbing.com/products/bug/

I think that dabble is referring to that class of device in general, including eg. the Black Diamond ATC, but not locking devices like a Grigri.

In reply to silhouette:

"What's a "bug"? If this is a serious discussion of safety, why use words that nobody understands?"

A bug is a very common belay device... try using google to avoid looking foolish.

http://dmmclimbing.com/products/bug/

In reply to SenzuBean:

which is probably related to their bizarre and dangerous custom of abseiling down sport routes.

In reply to Offwidth:









Great resources! But still, my point I believe still stands - that these are not front and center (if you go to rock and ice - the accidents page is literally the second link). I'd say that the majority of climbers/walkers in the UK don't know about these accident reports.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Come off it: its not far ahead by any reasonable measure. Not everything gets reported on those US pages and MRT summaries gets excellent coverage of serious accidents. The biggest lesson from such resources is too many climbers don't read them and learn from them. Every time I go winter climbing in Scotland its as if SAIS reports didn't exist; Stanage Popular is a great place to check out the state of trad... loads of bad practice on view; indoors, bad belaying abounds (as the OP points out).

People don't know where they are?... I and others list them regularly when a thread like this pops up and they are fairly obvious with a search.

In reply to Offwidth:



To be clear, I don't mean the quality of reports (our reports are fantastic) - I mean the culture of using accident reports as a resource.

In reply to SenzuBean:
I climb a lot of trad in the US they seem to have as many people there in popular areas doing the same stupid things I see on Stanage. The US has much more serious terrain than the UK and the accident issues are different there but still....

http://friendsofyosar.org/safety/climbingSafety.html

"Most Yosemite victims are experienced climbers, 60% have been climbing for three years or more, lead at least 5.10, are in good condition, and climb frequently. Short climbs and big walls, easy routes and desperate ones £ all get their share of the accidents."

"at least 80% of the fatalities and many injuries, were easily preventable. In case after case, ignorance, a casual attitude, and/or some form of distraction proved to be the most dangerous aspects of the sport. "

The problem is getting horses to drink; not leading them to the water.