UKC

Brief back ground I own a rack of climbing gear. My son is now a Sheffield University and I think we need a second rack. He has led 5 routes so far hopefully more buy the time he starts back for the next term. The question of when he should be let loose on his own is a separate one

He will fund a lot of it but I'm going to buy a set of cams for his birthday. Partly motivated by me leading far to many routes on a crazy small rack when I started out and therefore taking risks that didn't really need to. His early routes are most likely to be on grit.

We are confident that we can choose the other gear he needs I'm just not quite so sure about the cams

I currently own friends .5 and 1 and camalots 0.75,1,2,3 and 4. The 4 doesn't get much use. But I find that the .5 friend gets used alot, is that just me?


Go outdoors will do single axle friends, 1,2,3 for £88.97. I would then add at least 3 other sizes probably from other suppliers. I could then add a 0.5 and say a 3.5 friend of large camelot with a total spend of under £200. Is that a bargain or is it just saddling him with old inferior technology? In terms of them being single axle units

Or I could do the Climbers shop and buy 5 dragon Cams for £200. Although that will still mean choosing between the 0.5 equivalant or larger than 3 equivalant

The next step up is 6 dragon cams for £240 (0-5). I have to say typing this I'm just thinking you have hardly showered him with gifts over the last 18 years now is the time to to spend

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):
Could get a set of 5 c4's for £220 at EMS: https://www.elitemountainsupplies.co.uk/product/875_black-diamond-camalot-c...

They also have the 7 set for just over £300.

C4's are double axles as well.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Price match go outdoors from rock+run website,

£26 for friend 0 0.5 1 2.5 3

Cant go wrong

In reply to Removed User:

Both good ideas

I like the look of the 5 camelots. 0.4, 0.75,1,2,3 would work well. Although a Camelot 0.4 is a bit less strong

Hmm all suggestions gratefully recieved

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Bear in mind also that with a bit of hunting about you can price match GO and get C4s at about £35 a cam...

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):
I went and bought a whole set of Helium's for pretty cheap and I don't regret it at all. Yes, they're not dual axle etc, but it's one benefit vs another drawback when it comes to the two types, in my opinion.

Dual Axles have a larger range per cam, yes. But single axles pivot on the axle and are therefore less likely to walk, and work better in horizontal placements. Increased range means less pieces of gear to carry up a route. However, less gear means that when you go to set up an anchor, but you've already used that perfect cam on route, you MAY be out of options.

A full set of 9 heliums weighs the same as 6 Dragon cams, and covers the same range bar 1.4cm in the top end, yet you have more pieces of pro to use.

Basically it's down to personal choice, but I wouldn't get too hung up on 'outdated' technology... Buy what you can afford and what will suit you.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

You sure he'll still have the drive to climb once he's settled at uni? I stopped all of my outdoors from about 18-24 when the party years started. Cam's are a great gift if he's up for it long term but a bag of weed and some supermarket gift vouchers would have been better for a muppet like me at that age. Lets hope he's good for it.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

"You sure he'll still have the drive to climb once he's settled at uni? I stopped all of my outdoors from about 18-24 when the party years started. Cam's are a great gift if he's up for it long term but a bag of weed and some supermarket gift vouchers would have been better for a muppet like me at that age. Lets hope he's good for it. "

The do we need two racks is a big question. I think I'm the risk not him. I did most of my climbing between the ages of 18 and 24. i really thought I'd never climb again due to numerous soft tissue injuries. But despite various niggles I've been to the wall at least once a week since September. In the short term he could have my rack and I could borrow it when I'm up in the peak.

He is as keen as mustard as his 17 year old cousin and 16 year old sister. Its all gone a bit mad. We had a family holiday in wales i said i'd take them climbing for a couple of days. They said that wasn't enough. His cousin is currently in Fountainbleau for 5 days. He started getting out bouldering again in March and asked for his first leading lesson on freezing day when i picked him up from University

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

That definitely answers that one, get the lad some cams!!!

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Ebay is worth scouting. I got my full set of cams, all new, for under £150. That included three heliums. Oh, and I've climbed up to E7 on mostly old Friends, and they're fine. If you've got the cash though, I'd personally go for a combo of Dragons and Totems. Absolutely fantastic.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Hi John,

For what it's worth I personally would prefer to have fewer, nicer cams than a large rack of inferior cams. As for which end of the range to bias, I'd say small. To that end I'd say it is a bargain, but it's also saddling him...

Of the options above I'd go with the 5 dragons including the small not the big. My preference: camalots for small (ergonomic, trusty but heavier) and dragons for bigger (lacking the ergonomic thumb loop but lighter - obviously more important in the larger sizes). I wouldn't go for single axle friends anymore I don't think. Because of the more limited useable range I find that sometimes I've, say, placed dad's 1 only to find that his 2 won't fit higher up, whereas the increased overlap offered by my dragons or camalots means that I would have been able to place that second cam. In summary, fewer better; he can always supplement them later on himself! Head down to Stony and get the dragons!

Tom H

In reply to tjhare1:

Thanks Tom. Are you saying your dad is still leading on friends? looks like we are taking stock at the moment but I think Dragon Cams are the way to go. Looks like the shops new owners are willing to help out as well

In reply to mattcooperkay:


In reply to tjhare1:


I'd be interested if somebody could make the mathematical/technical case for twin-axle cams, versus single-axle ones.

Specifically, it seems to me that, if the camming angle is the same, dual-axle cams can't offer a *larger* range than can equivalent single-axle cams. (A *different* range, sure.)

Can anybody explain?

(Note that, regarding friends, I do understand the theory behind constant angle cams, and the resulting logarithmic spiral profile. So I'm looking for the equivalent detailed explanation behind the assertions I've quoted above. What I'm definitely *not* interested in is a repeat of the kind of informal claims which might be made in advertising copy.)

Thanks.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):




Get him as many Dragons/Camalots as you can. Heliums are junk IMO. if he is really in to climbing he'll keep them for ages and get loads of use out of them. If you are up for giving him a great gift maybe ask him his thoughts - I always try and buy kit I actually like/want because I won't then replace it until its knackered.

My Dad bought me a few camalots when I was your lads age and they have only been replaced by totem basics (they were small cams) because I got the totems to review and in the small sizes they are better. I've kept the camalots for times when I need extra cams.

In reply to Rob Parsons:





My understanding goes like this

A larger cam has a larger range. Not a larger % range but a larger range over which it works. For example a friend 3 works over a larger range than a friend 2. In fact that is all you need to know. A friend 3 has a smaller cam than a Camelot 2. So the Camelot 2 has a greater range. But I'll try and expand this abit

In a twin axle cam the cams are larger for the same overall span as they are offset.

The larger cams have a bigger range

Therefore the twin axle design has a larger % range. Range is bigger but overall span the same

In reply to Rob Parsons:



It's a little difficult to explain without drawing a picture, but effectively, it's because the cam lobes are able to overlap, which allows you to have bigger lobes on the same size of cam. (or the same size lobes to a cam with a smaller head, if you prefer)

On a single axle cam the length of the lobe is exactly half of the total width of the cam.
On a double axle cam the length of the lobe is somewhat more than half the total width of the head.

The range is basically a ratio of the total length of the base of the lobes, so you get more out of a double axle cam.

If you like you can imagine taking apart, for example, a helium friend 3, then positioning the lobes so that they overlap considerably. As long as the distance between then is less than the smaller dimension of the lobes (you could call this the height if you held the cam by the stem with head facing up) then the lobes will overlap all the way through their range. At no point did you lose any of the range. But the total width of the head is now less. So you have a cam with a smaller head, but the same total range. That might look something like a dragon 3 (these sizes are probably way out, but hopefully it gets the point across)

In fact the range increases by exactly the distance between the axles.


Totem cams achieve the same thing by a slightly different mechanism, because they load over the inside end of the lobe, rather than onto a central axle. I've never really looked at one closely enough, but I think this means that they don't actually have the same logarithmic spiral as most cams, they have some horribly complex profile.


This was excellent procrastination from maths revision

In reply to Rob Parsons:
Supposing I "invent" a single lobe that covers a radius from 30mm to 50mm.

If you put a set back to back on the same axle that covers the range 60 mm to 100mm.
That is a 40mm expansion or 66% expansion from 60mm.

If I put them back to back on two axles 20mm apart they now cover the range 40 to 80mm.
That is a 40mm expansion or 100% expansion from 40mm.

You are right. Same expansion in mm but starting from a narrower point so greater proportional expansion.

The greater proportional expansion of each size means the whole range can be covered by fewer different sizes.

In reply to elsewhere:

Utterly unuseful if you need more pieces of protection though.

In reply to elsewhere:








Right answer, wrong explanation.

What limits expansion range are the camming angle and the amount of the cam spiral you can use before it hits the other side of the crack in narrowest mode.

Twin axles increase camming range but not by as much as you suggest.

The maths is fairly horrific, hopefully Mike will be along soon with more patience to explain.