UKC

The title says it all really.

Why do we use straight gate krabs on a quickdraw? What's the benefit? Bent gates are just as strong but have greater gate clearance and are easier to clip.

Anyone?

Cheers,
Stew.

In reply to Stew:

maybe its cos if the QD get twisted round on a nut wire or bolt, then a straight gate is less likley to unclip if the bolt hanger/wire gets twisted round the outside of the gate, maybe?

In reply to Stew:

That's good enough or me! I'm doing a research project involving climbing and I'm applying for ethical approval. The ethics committee will (probably) be full of fuddy-duddy academics who don't know anything about climbing. So they don't dismiss it as too dangerous I'm trying to explain every litle thing!

In reply to Stew:
tell the fuddyduddy ole gits to go climbing then-they might learn something.

In reply to Stew: It's all meaningless..... Wiregates....Future....!!!

Now that would be funny!

Sadly I don't get to see them or I could explain things to them. If they have any questions/doubts they just reject it and I have to wait another month to apply!

In reply to Stew:
listen to gist-he knows wot he's talkin about.Man rise up against the establishment,burn them out.

In reply to Stew:

Aah but wiregates can get caught on bolts too!

In reply to Stew: I've always thought that it's so you know which krab is for the rope and which is for the gear i.e. bent for rope (as it's easier to clip with), straight for gear

Dave

In reply to David Benstead:
Yup, that's my understanding, too. It means that should any burrs be created on the straight gate, at least they shouldn't get in ripping contact with your precious rope....

Sxx

In reply to Stew:

Why use bend gate crabs? I certainly don't. They can come unclipped on their own and cause your death. I use straight gate crabs only.

In reply to Vdiff Dave:


I think this is a bit alarmist. There are quite a few ways for krabs to self-unclip, and the shape of the gate seems to be a minor factor in most of them. Here's some links which discuss the issue in more detail:

http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/safety_2.htm#unclipping
http://www.climerware.com/unclip.shtml
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Unclip.htm
http://flash.lakeheadu.ca/~lurock/biner.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20011007062611/http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frcara...

I think that taking care with krab orientation, and avoiding loading over an edge and back-clipping is a better precaution than simply relying on a particular type of krab not to misbehave.

As was mentioned higher up this thread, bent grate krabs are easier to clip the rope in to, and they help to differentiate between "gear" and "rope" krabs (which latter reason is why wire gate quickdraws have different coloured krabs at each end - all you then have to do is remember which colour is which end!)

In reply to Martin W: The lead wall at Alien Rock in Edinburgh have got a krab nailed to the wall with a bit of rope just so you can convince yourself that if you put your rope in the wrong way (i.e. in at the back, out at the front) it'll come out with a sharp tug in the right direction. Perhaps not directly linked to the straight/bent gate thing but it certainly brought it home to me!

Dave

In reply to Stew: 'cos I hate them bent gits!

In reply to David Benstead:

Perhaps it didn't bring it home quite firmly enough: "in at the back, out at the front" is the right way to clip!

In reply to Anonymous:

Do people STILL need to be taught that, it was one of the first things people should learn when starting using runners.

In reply to sutty:

First thing i tell people, complete with rope-falling-out-of-krab demonstration!

In reply to JG: clipping correctly 'should' be the first thing learnt! unfortunately just walk round the castle or westway on a busy saturday and there will be at least 25% of people clipping the wrong way ... but they won't be told because they've always done it that way!! (muppets) rope unclipping crab demo as already mentioned is very effective though!

In reply to sutty: Ach, it seems to come up quite regularly, along with the "Why bent/straight gates" question.

I note Sarah was the only one to get the original question RIGHT, though, in that you keep one end for rope, so it never gets damaged, so can't kill your rope, and t'other for the metal bits that could dig in and scratch your Krab.

As to clipping? Never let the LEAD rope run OVER the gate. Simple. If necessary, ROTATE the krab, to keep the gate away from the rope?

Tim, TG

In reply to O Mighty Tim:


But that's got nothing to do with the shape of the gate, which is what the original question was about. Gate shape may be one way to differentiate one end of the QD from the other, but there are other ways eg krab colour as used with wiregate QDs, or captive/loose ends (Chris Harmston of Black Diamond recommends only having the rope krab captive).

It's not something that's usually important mid-route, either. Provided you rack your QDs the right way up on your harness then you have to fumble pretty badly to clip the wrong krab in to the gear.

I'd suggest that there are a number of reasons:
- straight gate krabs are actually easier to clip to bolt hangers (the gate opens sooner when you push it against the hanger)
- bent gate krabs on the other hand are easier to clip the rope in to (bigger gate opening etc)
- it's one way to differentiate the "gear" end from the "rope" end when you're racking up.

To continue the argumentative theme of this posting, I think it's about time this thread moved on to a debate about whether QDs should have the krab gates on opposite sides or the same side

In reply to sutty:

"Do people STILL need to be taught that, it was one of the first things people should learn when starting using
runners."

A self answering question if ever I saw one!

Sadly its not only David who still muddle things up after being shown. Add a bit of fear and tired fumbling and all sorts of things go wrong. If someone does clip the wrong way I prefer to tell them not to climb any higher (ie have a rest, unclip and reclip) as the gate opening tends to only occur when you have climbed above the clip. The incorrectly placed rope moving out of the back of the crab to your harness can fall down onto the back edge of the gate forcing it open, when you fall from above. The same problem can occur with trad but unless you are 100% sure of the placement resting on gear is less of a good idea then...best place another runner and be careful not to backclip!

In reply to Stew: You could get a new reality show out of this "Straight Gate for a Gay Mate!"

In reply to daveP: Not sure about that logic. If the gate runs parallel to the other side it's less likely for a force to the gate to go straight through rather than slipping off to one side..not sure, maybe its just a marketing ploy to make something new.

In reply to Stew: Oh yes...and its less likely to cross load because of its shape.

In reply to Anonymous: Ooops...sorry, I'd just come back from the pub....

In reply to Stew:

This stuff about clipping the rope crab the right way round is very relevant on a climbing wall because the orientation of the bolts is such that the crab will always lie flat to the wall. In the real world this is not the case. Real runners, nuts and slings will often be 90 degrees offset so there is no right and wrong way. This means that the chances of a rope unclipping are higher than on a climbing wall.

The fact that bent gate crabs are easier to clip means that they are also easier to unclip if the rope goes back through them in the event of a fall.

Some people use bent gate crabs because they help identify the ends of quickdraws and reduce rope wear, fair enough. This could be achieved as easily by using different coloured crabs.

Some people use bent gate quickdraws because they are easier to clip. The problem of trying to clip the rope into a free-hanging quickdraw with one hand is more easily solved by simply clipping the quickdraw into the rope first and then pulling both up to the gear/bolt and clipping into the protection. I have never understood why people clip the quickdraw into the gear first and then have to struggle to pull the rope up and clip it into the quickdraw crab when it's so much easier to do it the other way round.

In reply to the first posting I actually prefer straight gates. Not for any safety reason but because I find the gate easier to clip into even for ropes. Bent gates always seem harder to clip for me as I find the curve difficut to push against and easy to miss the clip, with straight gates im more sure of when im past the gate and the rope is seated. I dont find that there is more room in bent gates a real factor for helping in the clipping. Anyway doesnt it depend on the individual straight/bent gate crab as each have varieties with lots of room or less so. I doubt anyone will aggree but oersonal prefernce I suppose.