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Attaching the protection to the harness.
So - just starting my journey into leading and I know that this is a very individual topic but also really very important. At the moment I'm taking lots more up than I need because I haven't got the experience to know what to lead, and whilst on the easy stuff I want to get used to climbing with it, locating what I want on my rack and general faffing with increasing efficiency!
So far I learned I need loads of snapgates to sub divide gear like wires but also because they seem less faffy than screw gates for getting at gear to try and replacing it if it was the wrong bit. I need the screwgates for the belay so initially thought it'd be clever to use them for gear stashing (doubling up), however whether it's me or them regardless snapgates seem easier.
The biggest problem has been keeping the strung nuts organised - a couple have quite long strings - I tried doubling up so they don't dangle but this caused me loads more issues when choosing between them, VERY fiddly! Unlike the wires I can't seem to have a few out to try at a time without getting in a mess! Do other people snap gate them on individually?
Any other suggestions or ideas welcome...
So - just starting my journey into leading and I know that this is a very individual topic but also really very important. At the moment I'm taking lots more up than I need because I haven't got the experience to know what to lead, and whilst on the easy stuff I want to get used to climbing with it, locating what I want on my rack and general faffing with increasing efficiency!
So far I learned I need loads of snapgates to sub divide gear like wires but also because they seem less faffy than screw gates for getting at gear to try and replacing it if it was the wrong bit. I need the screwgates for the belay so initially thought it'd be clever to use them for gear stashing (doubling up), however whether it's me or them regardless snapgates seem easier.
The biggest problem has been keeping the strung nuts organised - a couple have quite long strings - I tried doubling up so they don't dangle but this caused me loads more issues when choosing between them, VERY fiddly! Unlike the wires I can't seem to have a few out to try at a time without getting in a mess! Do other people snap gate them on individually?
Any other suggestions or ideas welcome...
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In reply to flopsicle:
For racking hexes on cord or tape, use individual snap gates. Clip into the main loop, then pull a little slack through the top of the hex so you can clip this as well. When you then clip this to your harness it won't hang too low, and also stops some of the annoying cow bell noises!
For racking hexes on cord or tape, use individual snap gates. Clip into the main loop, then pull a little slack through the top of the hex so you can clip this as well. When you then clip this to your harness it won't hang too low, and also stops some of the annoying cow bell noises!
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In reply to LJC:
Alternatively, you can leave these ridiculous devices in a mouldy unused rucksack in the cellar or garage.
> For racking hexes on cord or tape, use individual snap gates.
Alternatively, you can leave these ridiculous devices in a mouldy unused rucksack in the cellar or garage.
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In reply to flopsicle:
If your 'strung nuts' are hollow, then they are better called 'hexes'. Which brand are yours?
I rack them one per crab - color coded for quick access, but also partially because I've got ones with extendable slings, so 30% of the time I'll extend the sling, and clip the rope into the carabiner directly (no quickdraw).
I have climbed with folk who put multiple hexes on one quickdraw though, especially the smaller ones, but as they get larger you'll find it too unwieldy to have multiple on one carabiner.
You also don't need to carry all of them, all of the time - you'll slowly gain the skill to be able to look at a route and know with 95% certainty which sizes of gear are too big or too small and what you can leave behind (or make your second carry!). On average I carry 4 hexes (green to blue), but sometimes none and sometimes 6.
Secondly, once you get more experienced, you can swap out the belay screwgates for wiregates. It's a topic of contention whether to do this - 50% of people think it's silly to carry more than 1-3 screwgates, 50% think it's too dangerous not to use screwgates on the belay. I usually carry 3x wiregates for building belays, and only if I know it'll be a hanging belay or there'll be pitons/bolts will I bring screwgates instead.
If your 'strung nuts' are hollow, then they are better called 'hexes'. Which brand are yours?
I rack them one per crab - color coded for quick access, but also partially because I've got ones with extendable slings, so 30% of the time I'll extend the sling, and clip the rope into the carabiner directly (no quickdraw).
I have climbed with folk who put multiple hexes on one quickdraw though, especially the smaller ones, but as they get larger you'll find it too unwieldy to have multiple on one carabiner.
You also don't need to carry all of them, all of the time - you'll slowly gain the skill to be able to look at a route and know with 95% certainty which sizes of gear are too big or too small and what you can leave behind (or make your second carry!). On average I carry 4 hexes (green to blue), but sometimes none and sometimes 6.
Secondly, once you get more experienced, you can swap out the belay screwgates for wiregates. It's a topic of contention whether to do this - 50% of people think it's silly to carry more than 1-3 screwgates, 50% think it's too dangerous not to use screwgates on the belay. I usually carry 3x wiregates for building belays, and only if I know it'll be a hanging belay or there'll be pitons/bolts will I bring screwgates instead.
Post edited at 12:29
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In reply to flopsicle:
You can get nice big oval snapgates for racking wires. I would not advise using your racking biners such as these for anything else as you risk pouring wires down the crag, or into other inconvenient places.
You don't really need lots of screwgates for a belay. A big'un which will accommodate a couple of clove hitches is a good idea, but snapgates/QDs will do for the anchors (or certainly one of them, it might be nice to have a screwgate on one anchor if you're a bit 'by the book'/paranoid).
Why not keep it simple and have just wires (say smalls, meds and bigs on different racking biners) and cams, and place all the rest of your dangly bits carefully in the bin/on sale?
You can get nice big oval snapgates for racking wires. I would not advise using your racking biners such as these for anything else as you risk pouring wires down the crag, or into other inconvenient places.
You don't really need lots of screwgates for a belay. A big'un which will accommodate a couple of clove hitches is a good idea, but snapgates/QDs will do for the anchors (or certainly one of them, it might be nice to have a screwgate on one anchor if you're a bit 'by the book'/paranoid).
Why not keep it simple and have just wires (say smalls, meds and bigs on different racking biners) and cams, and place all the rest of your dangly bits carefully in the bin/on sale?
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In reply to flopsicle:
I'd definitely rack nuts on wiregates or snapgates. What would you do on a multipitch if you wanted to get onto the next pitch but all the wires were hanging on crabs that were part of the belay?
FWIW, I think that most people would carry between two and five screwgates for a belay, depending on how paranoid they are - one for the belay device, one for the attachment to your harness / rope loop and nought to three for the belay gear depending on how much you think you're definitely going to die if you don't use screwgates for the belay pieces. Everyone that I've seen climb has kept their belay plate on its own screwgate and used the rest to rack slings (which you're most likely to want at the belay anyway) or had them loose on their harness.
I tend to rack up fairly randomly as regards left and right - stuff starts getting randomized as soon as I start placing gear one handed anyway - but with pro on the front gear loops and extenders on the back ones, with special (ie long or extendable) extenders in front of regular shortish ones, and ideally with the most commonly accessed pro (ie crabs of nuts) in front of the less accessed stuff (ie individual cams), although again this latter part tends to go by the board as the pitch progresses.
> So far I learned I need loads of snapgates to sub divide gear like wires but also because they seem less faffy than screw gates for getting at gear to try and replacing it if it was the wrong bit. I need the screwgates for the belay so initially thought it'd be clever to use them for gear stashing (doubling up), however whether it's me or them regardless snapgates seem easier.
I'd definitely rack nuts on wiregates or snapgates. What would you do on a multipitch if you wanted to get onto the next pitch but all the wires were hanging on crabs that were part of the belay?
FWIW, I think that most people would carry between two and five screwgates for a belay, depending on how paranoid they are - one for the belay device, one for the attachment to your harness / rope loop and nought to three for the belay gear depending on how much you think you're definitely going to die if you don't use screwgates for the belay pieces. Everyone that I've seen climb has kept their belay plate on its own screwgate and used the rest to rack slings (which you're most likely to want at the belay anyway) or had them loose on their harness.
I tend to rack up fairly randomly as regards left and right - stuff starts getting randomized as soon as I start placing gear one handed anyway - but with pro on the front gear loops and extenders on the back ones, with special (ie long or extendable) extenders in front of regular shortish ones, and ideally with the most commonly accessed pro (ie crabs of nuts) in front of the less accessed stuff (ie individual cams), although again this latter part tends to go by the board as the pitch progresses.
Post edited at 12:44
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Hexes do have uses on easy routes when the climber is not experienced in placing cams and judging the quality of the placement.
I'll admit to using screwgates on most parts of my belays as I am preparing for my SPA assessment at the moment and was pulled up for using quickdraws on the training.
Anyone who thinks racking multiple hexes/ cams on the same krab is wrong...
Hexes do have uses on easy routes when the climber is not experienced in placing cams and judging the quality of the placement.
I'll admit to using screwgates on most parts of my belays as I am preparing for my SPA assessment at the moment and was pulled up for using quickdraws on the training.
Anyone who thinks racking multiple hexes/ cams on the same krab is wrong...
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In reply to flopsicle:
You really need to experiment and see what suits you. What works for one individual does not work for another. Taking hexes and cams for example, many on here are suggesting one per krab but I find that takes up too much space. One thing that does appear to be universal however is racking large at the back to small at the front but even then this can vary from route to route. The following works for me:
Rocks 1 to 6 on a BD oval krab clipped on the right front gear loop.
Rocks 7, 8, 9 and 10 on an oval krab behind that.
This is repeated on the left but with DMM Wallnuts and offsets in similar sizes, again on the front loop.
Micro wires, typically 8 or 9 racked either front or back according to route.
Smaller cams on the right, racked 2 per oval krab on front loop.
Some smaller cams on the left, racked 2 per karabiner on front loop.
Rear loops are reserved for QD's and extendable alpine slings and larger cams/Torque nuts according to route.
If I need to also carry large Cams or the larger Torque nuts I use a bandolier and do use one per krab in this instance. Torque nuts have extendable slings and are more manageable for racking.
Apart from the odd route where there is a disproportionate amount of larger gear all of this racks on 4 gear loops adequately but apart from the ovals, 6 in total, I use DMM Phantom krabs which save on weight and space.
There is no RIGHT method and I may vary the one described above on some routes. There are not many large Hexes for example on a slab route and not many micros on a grit hand jamming crack. I carry 3 screwgates maximum except at places where it may be necessary to "rig" ropes beforehand at the top but on the route itself 3 is enough.
Al
You really need to experiment and see what suits you. What works for one individual does not work for another. Taking hexes and cams for example, many on here are suggesting one per krab but I find that takes up too much space. One thing that does appear to be universal however is racking large at the back to small at the front but even then this can vary from route to route. The following works for me:
Rocks 1 to 6 on a BD oval krab clipped on the right front gear loop.
Rocks 7, 8, 9 and 10 on an oval krab behind that.
This is repeated on the left but with DMM Wallnuts and offsets in similar sizes, again on the front loop.
Micro wires, typically 8 or 9 racked either front or back according to route.
Smaller cams on the right, racked 2 per oval krab on front loop.
Some smaller cams on the left, racked 2 per karabiner on front loop.
Rear loops are reserved for QD's and extendable alpine slings and larger cams/Torque nuts according to route.
If I need to also carry large Cams or the larger Torque nuts I use a bandolier and do use one per krab in this instance. Torque nuts have extendable slings and are more manageable for racking.
Apart from the odd route where there is a disproportionate amount of larger gear all of this racks on 4 gear loops adequately but apart from the ovals, 6 in total, I use DMM Phantom krabs which save on weight and space.
There is no RIGHT method and I may vary the one described above on some routes. There are not many large Hexes for example on a slab route and not many micros on a grit hand jamming crack. I carry 3 screwgates maximum except at places where it may be necessary to "rig" ropes beforehand at the top but on the route itself 3 is enough.
Al
Post edited at 13:20
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
My hexes are staying! :-P I have a set of cams but a very canny climber advised putting a nut or hex in when you have a good stance so that you have cams left for more hurried moments. Additionally - I like placing them, I enjoy the thought process and look forward to it becoming quicker, I love the 'clack' as it seats and the way they feel older. I've nothing against cams, although at present they seem a little like putting away a pop up tent - easy after the required study and practice, not so much if just slapping about hoping for good fortune!
My hexes are staying! :-P I have a set of cams but a very canny climber advised putting a nut or hex in when you have a good stance so that you have cams left for more hurried moments. Additionally - I like placing them, I enjoy the thought process and look forward to it becoming quicker, I love the 'clack' as it seats and the way they feel older. I've nothing against cams, although at present they seem a little like putting away a pop up tent - easy after the required study and practice, not so much if just slapping about hoping for good fortune!
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In reply to flopsicle:
Thanks everyone - you've identified one major issue - my strung nuts and hexes, one krab (snapgate) each! I think I'll give doubling up the thread another chance too as it may have been the combination of doubling it with multiple nuts on one krab that caused a birds nest with baubles situation!
I use screwgates for the belay, or would back to back snapgates if needed, just didn't find the screwgates as easy to whip stuff off and on mid climb (wasn't screwing them shut but just lumpier).
Big stuff at the back makes sense too, if nothing else them from the POV of less between me and rock.
Thanks everyone - you've identified one major issue - my strung nuts and hexes, one krab (snapgate) each! I think I'll give doubling up the thread another chance too as it may have been the combination of doubling it with multiple nuts on one krab that caused a birds nest with baubles situation!
I use screwgates for the belay, or would back to back snapgates if needed, just didn't find the screwgates as easy to whip stuff off and on mid climb (wasn't screwing them shut but just lumpier).
Big stuff at the back makes sense too, if nothing else them from the POV of less between me and rock.
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In reply to flopsicle:
How many have you got? I climb with a set of four DMM torque nuts if it looks like a hexey route, and apart from cams everything else is on wires. Have you inherited a stack of Moacs or something?
> Thanks everyone - you've identified one major issue - my strung nuts and hexes, one krab (snapgate) each!
How many have you got? I climb with a set of four DMM torque nuts if it looks like a hexey route, and apart from cams everything else is on wires. Have you inherited a stack of Moacs or something?
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I have 4 inherited and restrung hexes, 3 large rockcentrics as - the biggest of which did an awesome job on Monday.
The rest are all wires.
I have 4 inherited and restrung hexes, 3 large rockcentrics as - the biggest of which did an awesome job on Monday.
The rest are all wires.
In reply to flopsicle:
I split my nuts into 3 oval krabs: micros, 0-5 with a few doubles and odds, 6-10. I put my draws on back 2 loops and have small cams+small-medium wires on left front loop and big cams+big nuts on right front loop.
I really wish I had a 5th loop for extra gear.
I split my nuts into 3 oval krabs: micros, 0-5 with a few doubles and odds, 6-10. I put my draws on back 2 loops and have small cams+small-medium wires on left front loop and big cams+big nuts on right front loop.
I really wish I had a 5th loop for extra gear.
In reply to flopsicle:
Over the years I've simplified what I carry: Nuts front right (micros as well if the route needs it, one or two krabs worth of wires depending on length), big stuff front left (cams and/or hexes again depending on route, each on individual krabs). Quick draws split back left and back right. Belay plate/krab rear left or right whilst climbing. Prussiks on emergency bail out krab at back. Nut key at back. Shoes at back - all depending on route.
I hate ovals for racking and avoid them like the plague, but I know this is a marmite thing.
Over the years I've simplified what I carry: Nuts front right (micros as well if the route needs it, one or two krabs worth of wires depending on length), big stuff front left (cams and/or hexes again depending on route, each on individual krabs). Quick draws split back left and back right. Belay plate/krab rear left or right whilst climbing. Prussiks on emergency bail out krab at back. Nut key at back. Shoes at back - all depending on route.
I hate ovals for racking and avoid them like the plague, but I know this is a marmite thing.
In reply to Removed User:
I have two of these:
http://www.rockrun.com/petzl-caritool?gclid=CMiev8rC6c4CFVAo0wodasEIlg
One goes right of centre at the back of the harness and I put big stuff there that I can find easily by touch, like my number 8 blue Rockcentric (I don't take the nine but often find having the blue one handy - have you tried hammering on a nutkey with a cam?) and on the rare occasions I think I might need it I'll put my number 4 Camalot there too. The other goes on webbing at the front immediately right of the buckle, I put my set of 3 x I.M.P.s, number 3 Wallnut and DMM Alloy Offsets there along with the shortest quickdraw I have and can reach it just as easily with either hand. The front one is for panic mode, if things are getting a little hairy and I grab something off my harness and it doesn't fit the placement then I don't have to worry about finding a place on a gear loop to secure it before trying something else, I bang it straight on the Caritool, even if it doesn't have its own carabiner or I'm not holding the carabiner it takes a split second to get it on and grab the next thing.
> I really wish I had a 5th loop for extra gear.
I have two of these:
http://www.rockrun.com/petzl-caritool?gclid=CMiev8rC6c4CFVAo0wodasEIlg
One goes right of centre at the back of the harness and I put big stuff there that I can find easily by touch, like my number 8 blue Rockcentric (I don't take the nine but often find having the blue one handy - have you tried hammering on a nutkey with a cam?) and on the rare occasions I think I might need it I'll put my number 4 Camalot there too. The other goes on webbing at the front immediately right of the buckle, I put my set of 3 x I.M.P.s, number 3 Wallnut and DMM Alloy Offsets there along with the shortest quickdraw I have and can reach it just as easily with either hand. The front one is for panic mode, if things are getting a little hairy and I grab something off my harness and it doesn't fit the placement then I don't have to worry about finding a place on a gear loop to secure it before trying something else, I bang it straight on the Caritool, even if it doesn't have its own carabiner or I'm not holding the carabiner it takes a split second to get it on and grab the next thing.
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In reply to EddInaBox:
I accidentally bought two of these in the large size, which apparently is for hanging chainsaws and things on. On the plus side they are apparently useful for clipping your ice axes to (through the hole in the head), and if I take them on trad I will definitely be able to take my full rack...
(just checking that I made a terrible mistake and nobody ever buys the large?)
I accidentally bought two of these in the large size, which apparently is for hanging chainsaws and things on. On the plus side they are apparently useful for clipping your ice axes to (through the hole in the head), and if I take them on trad I will definitely be able to take my full rack...
(just checking that I made a terrible mistake and nobody ever buys the large?)
In reply to GrahamD and ex0:
Don't you notice one side being heavier if you put big things all on one side?
Don't you notice one side being heavier if you put big things all on one side?
In reply to SenzuBean:
Cant say I do but then I've cut back a lot on the big stuff. I'm happier having the wires on their own as the normal go to pro
> Don't you notice one side being heavier if you put big things all on one side?
Cant say I do but then I've cut back a lot on the big stuff. I'm happier having the wires on their own as the normal go to pro
In reply to Jon Stewart:
On the other hand, a few lightweight screwgates won't weigh anyone down too much (unless they're climbing at a level where grammes are critical).
Also, if you're "by the book"/paranoid (which I am) and run out of screwgates, you can always use two snapgates with their gates opposed (so they're "facing" in opposite directions).
And any quickdraws you have on you can be taken apart to provide two snapgates (this is one of those things which is blindingly obvious once someone else has pointed it out).
When you're starting out, I think it can really help to learn the "by the book" method and stick to it, because you don't yet have the experience to make judgement calls on what you can fudge in a particular situation and what you can't.
At this point, I've been doing trad for three years, and I still feel I'm a relative n00b in some respects.
> You don't really need lots of screwgates for a belay.
On the other hand, a few lightweight screwgates won't weigh anyone down too much (unless they're climbing at a level where grammes are critical).
Also, if you're "by the book"/paranoid (which I am) and run out of screwgates, you can always use two snapgates with their gates opposed (so they're "facing" in opposite directions).
And any quickdraws you have on you can be taken apart to provide two snapgates (this is one of those things which is blindingly obvious once someone else has pointed it out).
When you're starting out, I think it can really help to learn the "by the book" method and stick to it, because you don't yet have the experience to make judgement calls on what you can fudge in a particular situation and what you can't.
At this point, I've been doing trad for three years, and I still feel I'm a relative n00b in some respects.
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In reply to slab_happy:
"a few" ?? If you are paranoid 2 maybe. It is worth considering exactly what failure mechanism you are trying to protect against, especially on a two point belay where you are already building in redundancy.
Personally on short pitches I often don't bother carrying any screwgates other than the belay one. There are always krabs a plenty on the gear I haven't placed. On longer pitches I'll stick a couple of screwgates on any slings I'm carrying.
There isn't any harm in carrying extra stuff (I would suggest that the issue is more one of 'clutter' than weight) but its always healthy to ask "why ?"
> On the other hand, a few lightweight screwgates won't weigh anyone down too much (unless they're climbing at a level where grammes are critical).
"a few" ?? If you are paranoid 2 maybe. It is worth considering exactly what failure mechanism you are trying to protect against, especially on a two point belay where you are already building in redundancy.
Personally on short pitches I often don't bother carrying any screwgates other than the belay one. There are always krabs a plenty on the gear I haven't placed. On longer pitches I'll stick a couple of screwgates on any slings I'm carrying.
There isn't any harm in carrying extra stuff (I would suggest that the issue is more one of 'clutter' than weight) but its always healthy to ask "why ?"
In reply to flopsicle:
Whoah, whoah, whoah everyone. You've got this far in the thread and not addressed the most important question - gate facing in or out?
Whoah, whoah, whoah everyone. You've got this far in the thread and not addressed the most important question - gate facing in or out?
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In reply to flopsicle:
With this as a strong foundation everything else about your rack will fall into place naturally ; )
With this as a strong foundation everything else about your rack will fall into place naturally ; )
1
In reply to Removed User:
Use a bandolier. The shorter the better. Excellent for bunches of small wires - you can see what you have before unclipping anything.
Also useful so you can ditch your ballast if you fall in the sea, or in the pool at Lawrencefield.
> I really wish I had a 5th loop for extra gear.
Use a bandolier. The shorter the better. Excellent for bunches of small wires - you can see what you have before unclipping anything.
Also useful so you can ditch your ballast if you fall in the sea, or in the pool at Lawrencefield.
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