UKC

Hi,

I have just started to climb indoors for the first time and I'm really enjoying it. All I have done is a taster session and two 1:1 top rope lessons for an hour each time. I just have a few basic questions for the regulars on here please:

- I realise I should just climb for enjoyment to begin with but I climbed a grade 5 then fell off 3/4 way up a 5+ near the end of the session. Would you advise I practice longer on the 5 so I find it very easy and I am more fluid or would you try to nail the 5+ next time and work on that?

- In regards 5+ I think they are using the French scale but some scales quoting the French scale mention 5a, 5b, 5c then others 5 and 5+. Can someone explain the difference and is 5+ the same as a 5c or have I been comparing different French scales?

- Final question, I climbed on Wednesday and today my forearms and triceps (weird considering I heard it hits biceps more) are now back to normal but my lats feel quite stiff from Doms I assume. Definitely not going to climb again until Monday but previously when working out I used take Whey protein to ease Doms, anyone recommend this for climbing too?

Thanks a lot

p.s. this forum really needs Tapatalk installed on it for easier reading....

In reply to siouxchief:

Personally I'd just go and climb more regardless of grades.. As for the aches? They'll just get less as you get more practice in.

In reply to siouxchief:

For question 1.

It won't really matter which of the two you climb tbh just do what you enjoy. If your goal is to get 'better' (ie climb a harder grade) then just focus on learning good technique. Put your toe on to the holds, keep your weight on your feet, push with your legs rather than pull with your arms and keep your arms straight, it's as easy as that!


Enjoy your next session

In reply to siouxchief:

Personally I recommend the following for each session:

- Start with some easy routes you can climb without a problem (e.g. a 4 or a 5a right now), do one or two to warm up.
- Try a few routes on the edge of your grade, give each a few goes (e.g. a 5+) and be happy to fall off.
- Finish off with a few more routes you can climb without a problem until you run out of endurance.

Esentially, warm up, hard stuff and then mileage.

Focus on technique rather than just getting to the top, look carefully where you place your feet, push up with the feet and use your arms for balance. Try to be smooth and controlled.

Have a good time and come back next time

In reply to siouxchief:

Do some Bouldering as well. Its handy to do some problems that take a few goes, maybe more than 1 visit.

try to use your feet not your arms

Mix it up and enjoy it

Thanks everyone, I will take on board all the advice and will certainly be back. Shame it took till I was 36 to discover this! Looking forward to my next session already

Cheers

In reply to siouxchief:


Don't worry, I'm 40 and have been climbing for around 4 years now so started at a similar age to you. I mostly climb outdoors in the summer and indoors in the winter. I'm never going to be "good" but can manage to work the odd F6c on a good day.

In reply to siouxchief:

To respond to your second question... 5+ generally just means a harder 5b or a 5c. You'll sometimes see a 5- as well, which makes one wonder why they don't just use the letters instead.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):


Bouldering is the work of Satin. People who encourage it should be heavily fined and given shirts.

In reply to Aztec Bar:

Soft satin shirts.

I think I will take your advice springfall which seems reasonable and also good to hear you started the same age as me:

- Start with some easy routes you can climb without a problem (e.g. a 4 or a 5a right now), do one or two to warm up.
- Try a few routes on the edge of your grade, give each a few goes (e.g. a 5+) and be happy to fall off.
- Finish off with a few more routes you can climb without a problem until you run out of endurance.

I will stick to the top rope for now as I like the added height and rope aspect but I can see the appeal to bouldering too so won't rule it out. The banter between the two camps is amusing .

Thanks for explaining the 5+ to me too.

Cheers

I'm old enough that to be able say that when I started there weren't 2 camps. It was just climbing. People bouldered but it wasn't really a thing

I' really not a boulderer. My bouldering has always really been as a preparation for climbing.

But as a climber I'd say I made huge progress by bouldering.

So don't think of at as 2 camps. Mix up what you do and enjoy it

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Interesting John, I will keep that in mind. What do you think the bouldering offers that the top roping may not out of interest?

Just went for the first time by myself today which was great as I could take my time and not feel under pressure on the auto belays. Managed a 6a+ not on the highest wall plus using the holes cut in the wall (is this allowed?) but not sure if that's good or bad for a beginner but it nearly broke me.


Thanks

In reply to siouxchief:



It depends on the centre if the grade includes or excludes any features (holes/lumps in the wall etc), usually it's allowed unless the route says otherwise but check with one of the staff.

If you really climbed 6a+ then that's pretty good for a beginner

In reply to siouxchief:


Bouldering usually involves short but often hard problems which you can try over and over again until you get them right. Once you have learnt how to do that type of problem you are likely to come across something similar again often on a longer roped route and will be able to spot the sequence.

Also a lot of centres have circuits, which is a bouldering wall where you follow each of the numbered moves in sequence. Here you aim to build endurance and work on your technique. Generally they don't have any really hard moves but you have to make each one efficiently to be able to complete the sequence.

In reply to siouxchief:

6a+ is pretty epic for a new climber....

The only thing I'd add to everyone else's advice is focus really hard on your technique during the warmup routes and Boulder to hone it..... It really does play dividends.

It's not about the grade it's about the fun.

In reply to KennyG:


I hate to say it, but many indoor walls exaggerate their grades somewhat. There is a big difference between 30 metres of full on outdoor 6a+ and a short 6a+ top rope/boulder problem at leisure centre....

Great news I'm not doing too bad with a 6a+ but agreed its not all about grades and about the enjoyment. The grade didnt mention not using the holes but will email them to see if they are part of the 6a+ grade out of interest.

Will need 5 days to recover now like last week I guess but that should get easier the more I go and will try bouldering.

Cheers

Edit: Just found out from former trainer that it is a 6a+ without cracks so I didn't do it. Max I did was 6a on another wall but happy with that for now as grades aren't everything.

In reply to siouxchief:


Repetition

I think this is the key. In theory possible on a top rope but you'd need very patient belayer.

It's that transformation from I can't do this move to I've done it over lots of attempt. That dawning on you that a slightly different sequence makes something that couldn't be done possible.

This leads to a library of moves to use when climbing

Whole routes will develop different skills and techniques

In reply to siouxchief:

Also it's the intensity that is beneficial, you can try (and eventually succeed at) much harder moves than on routes, which results in more rapid strength gains. You can do far more climbing too, with no time lost to belaying and rope related faff.


My personal experience is that the amount of "banter" (or dimwitted unpleasantness as it used to be known) is inversely proportional to the ability of the climbers concerned. Most good routes climbers recognise bouldering is a good way of building power (or an-pow as hipsters now call it). Most boulderers I know do routes in summer when the grit is sweaty, or at least have a grudging respect for those who do / a vague feeling they should get on the big stuff eventually. Many do so in time, bouldering is more power dependant and thus more of a youngster's game - routes are more amenable to the kind of cunning and stubborn siege tactics that can be developed / retained in layer years.

In reply to siouxchief:



36 ! You've got six or seven years til you give up climbing and start cycling.

In reply to siouxchief:


Hard moves.

It's much quicker to build strength in your fingers (not too well up on the anatomy/physiology, but this involves tendons as well as muscles) by doing moves that are at your actual limit, rather than doing lots of moves that you can do individually but become too tired to do all of as a route. High intensity rather than lots of rep, basically.

Bouldering is also very good for developing technique. When you're doing hard moves, falling off over and over until you can do it, you're working out precisely what body positions = staying on and what body positions = falling off. This all gets learnt by your unconscious kinaesthetic brain and after a while you start to climb like a climber rather than like a beginner.

You will learn all of this on routes, but it'll take longer, because the moves are easier so there's a lot more leeway in what you can get away with without falling off. And the intensity is lower so strength gains are much slower.

In reply to siouxchief:
Just a word or to of warning about bouldering, (apart from it being the devil's work) it involves powerful moves, so leading to fairly rapid strength gains, BUT muscles gain strength more rapidly than tendons, so unless you are careful, tendons, particularly finger tendons, are at a much greater risk of injury. As a fairly old fart, I try to avoid bouldering unless I can't find anyone to share belaying.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Culm slabs are the devil's work.

In reply to siouxchief:

Regarding your final question:

It is normal for your forearms to feel stiff after climbing - the muscles in your forearms control your fingers, so they get a good a workout and for most beginners these will be the muscles that they have used least in other activities. Lats is also common.

I don't think I have ever had sore biceps from climbing - but I do sometimes get sore triceps, particularly if I have been working on something that involves pushing down on holds that are below shoulder height. Biceps do get used, but often less than you think as there is lots of involvement from your shoulders and legs to spread the load.

In any case, I don't think anything you describe is abnormal.

In any case, I don't use any protein supplements, but I don't think they would hurt. I find with DOMS the best cure is actually to go back out and do some more exercise. Generally if I have a hard session at the wall, I will go back 2-3 days later and do an easy session to get everything moving. Usually I am fine after that! The obvious caveat is to be sure that it actually is DOMS and not a real injury before taking this approach.

In reply to kathrync:

Thanks Kathryn, very informative.

In reply to siouxchief:

I am in the same camp as yourself siouxchief. Probably not as good as you, but I have been watching hundreds and hundreds of hours of climbing coaching over the last 3years.

Anyhow, what I was going to say was pretty much don't get hung up too much on chasing grades, especially indoors. One guys easy 6A is another guys nightmare because one may suit better. As a beginner I would say that doing a climb in a nice smooth manner, with lots of control is more important than ticking off a grade on a climb you just about manage. It seems the done thing to chase the grades regardless but from what I have watched over the last few years this doesn't make beginners much better climbers. This attitude will also result in much more completed climbs, smoother climbs and steady boost in fitness/strength.

Its amazing watching a good climber go up something which they find relatively easy, say on a warm up. You see them glide up without making a noise and what looks like slow motion. Body position making much more difference to the climb than the vice like grip us beginners require. Then you watch a beginner go up the same climb, banging their feet, grappling for grip with their arse stuck out and you wonder if they ever take a break and try to appreciate what they are doing.

I had it a week or so ago. I have paid a lot of money out on proper coaching for my daughter who is 9. I am banging, clattering and scrambling my way up something I should be able to climb. After a few goes she takes 5 minutes to tell me how to position myself on the climb to make the difference. It makes total sense but when I was on the wall I hadn't even considered it. As soon as I positioned my overweight, semi worn out body correctly it all became much simpler.

Personally I would try to make friends at the wall with the 'good climbers', they are a fantastic help when they offer advice. I would also then concentrate on improving technique and fitness rather than chasing your grades. That will probably be a pleasant side effect in the near future.

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

The other thing about grades is they vary a lot from wall to wall. More so than outdoor venues in my experience.

In reply to GrahamD:


Not surprisingly as the route setter has to set a lot of routes on a regular basis and (depending on the centre) with very little review of the grade allocated to that route.

In reply to springfall2008:

The important thing for anyone starting out though, is don't get too fixated on measureing absolute ability by grade on one wall. Good for measureing relative improvement for sure.

In reply to GrahamD:


Yes I totally agree - unless you are someone wanting to take part in competitions it doesn't really matter what grade you climb as long as you enjoy it.

I'd certainly recommend to the OP getting outdoors onto real rock when you find someone experienced who is willing to take you out

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:

All great tips from everyone and I agree with you Thelittlesthobo in regards technique being the most important thing.

Just watched this video and it shows how easy an expert makes it look and is amazing to watch:

youtube.com/watch?v=dEzTMwXfVro&

The one thing I learned from this video which is something I have very little of is her flexibility. She can get her leg up head height onto tiny holds but I can't even touch my toes so it looks like it's something I may need to work on.

Out of curiosity when people say just enjoy it what does this mean for people? If it's not getting to the top of a grade you have never done before is it the enjoyment of doing it with increasing ease compared to the last time or is it just enjoying being in the climbing area socialising + climbing etc or all of the above? Ignoring the outdoor climbing for now as that has obvious enjoyable aspects. Just wondering what gets people going if it's not pushing for grade increases.

Thanks

In reply to siouxchief:


I think just enjoying climbing the routes you can climb is a really good starting point - if you don't then why are you climbing? Of course will get better and push your grade and you might find that fun too, but whatever level you are at you can always attempt to push your grade higher.

Each grade improvement takes an increasing level of dedication and physical fitness so there maybe a point where you either can't improve beyond or aren't willing to spend the effort improving beyond. At that point most people don't give up climbing, they just enjoy the climbs they can do

In reply to GrahamD:


As another old-fart newby (38; 2 months climbing) I find a lot of the value of the grades (bouldering and roped alike) comes from comparing self with self. It doesn't seem to bother the young'uns as much, but if I go three days in a given week then when I start the next week I see a noticeable difference in tackling the same grades. If I only make it once then I go backwards every time.

Find out if your local gym runs drop in sessions etc, as I find that the advice and encouragement from other climbers in group settings is really fantastic. (Three cheers for The Castle's programme)

In reply to MartynH:

You will find that moving from wall to wall the ability to measure absolute differences is much reduced. In my experience I'd reckon as much as 2 full grades different between soft walls/ setters and hard ones.

I reckon these days I can just about hold constant on one wall visit a week and I definately get a bit stronger with two lots of climbing a week. Sadly I'm closer to once or twice a month right now, so Swanage this weekend is going to be tough !

In reply to siouxchief:
Hi chief!

To answer your last question, if u decide to use protein supplements for recovery then choose those products which have only that in with least calories as possible; none of this bodybuilding weight gain stuff as this will only make u heavier and negatively affect your strength-to-weight ratio.

Likewise with Creatine which many athletes choose to use as a recovery supplement as it is also found naturally in foods like red meat. Although effective, large doses of creatine will promote water retention within the muscles (especially large muscles such as the chest and legs which are rarely the limiting factor in a climber's performance). Couple this with a diet high in carbohydrates (again like most athletes) which has similar effects and you will find that your body weight has increased in the absence of any significant improvements in strength/endurance. Again not ideal for your strength-to-weight ratio.

I'm not saying don't use them, but like many things in life a little goes a long way!

Hope this all makes sense.

Happy training

J

In reply to siouxchief:




Regarding grades, if you ever get the chance to climb outdoors, don't confuse French sport grades (especially indoors) with UK technical grades. A UK tech 5c is a very different thing to a sport 5+. Indoor 5+ usually feels most like about UK tech 4a to me.

Thanks all for the valuable advice. Its been two weeks since I wrote my initial post and I have now been climbing twice a week at XC Hemel Hempstead.

Some thoughts after getting more into this sport:

- Bouldering is good fun and shouldn't be overlooked. I arrived too early at the centre one day so had to go bouldering to avoid kids but really enjoyed my time trying the various routes. Could only manage to do a max V2 but the main thing is that it was good fun. There is definitely an added fear when falling which I dont get with ropes and when I knew I was falling at one point I was still hanging by one arm which kinda hurt my shoulder so next time i think when Im falling I will release both hands rather than risk pulling my shoulder out if that makes sense.

- Although I haven't bought protein which may be the cheaper option I have been having a little pack of chicken after a session and it really eases my DOMS. The day I didnt have it I had worse DOMS the following day but this may be anecdotal but it was like when I started taking protein shakes previously working out which really helped.

- I'm finding great tips from Neil Gresham and his masterclass dvd is now free online https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBCRwO0FN0zMTqSfFW9SMbK2tncTrI25r

- The shoes really arent comfortable which I'm renting so must treat myself to a pair and I must get something to cover my knees instead of wearing shorts as I am getting quite a few scrapes.

Anyhow that's the latest on my journey. Maybe next summer I will try outdoors.

Cheers

In reply to siouxchief:

Glad you are having a good time climbing

I'm not sure about the eating protein bit, unless you don't get enough in your diet I doubt you have to change.

Clothes wise, I like the 3/4 length shorts which cover your knees but leave your feet visible - go-outdoors sell them. If you get the type with a zip up pocket it's useful when you are outdoors as well for stuff like a cleaning cloth (for shoes) and your phone.

For climbing shoes, I'd recommend trying on many pairs and find something comfortable - don't listen to people who say they should hurt you. At the grade you are at right now even a pair of go-outdoors Climb-X will be fine.

In reply to springfall2008:

Must check out the 3/4 ones springfall. Had my eye on something like this:

http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/abk-oldstone-pant-dark-granite-p-2578.html

But don't have my size so will have a shop around.

In reply to siouxchief:

Or these?

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/regatta-mens-leesville-capri-trousers-p395209

In reply to springfall2008:

Thanks, good call. Will look into getting them.