UKC

I've been starting to train more specifically for alpinism after a long time focusing on other sports, mainly powerlifting and one stint with ultrarunning. Over that time I've been in the mountains intermittently on climbs ranging from PD- to PD+, and tested what worked. Funny thing is even without doing much endurance training I fared much better this year than I did the previous years, which I suspect is due to doing more high-rep work in general (5 sets of 15, etc).

Now I've started doing more endurance training, and would like to see if I can get some inspiration from what you guys are doing. So far I'm doing one 0.5 hour zone 2 session, one hill sprint session, and one 1 hour session and one 2 hour session in zone 1. In addition to this 1 hour of bouldering and 2+ hours of climbing (indoors for the time being). Each session I'm on the treadmill focusing on going as fast as I can within my heart rate zone while climbing as high as I can (incline at least 10%, depends on how high the treadmill can go).

Maybe I'll have to ditch the powerlifting training after a while, but I'd like to see if I can still keep it going for a while.

In reply to Thrusthamster:

I've never "trained" for any form of climbing although I would tend to do more walking prior to an Alpine trip. I've got a theory that there is no such thing as fitness when it comes to Alpine climbing, it's more a matter of knowing that there is going to be pain and accepting that

Seriously, the best form of training IMO is regular walking with a heavy pack. Some years ago a friend of mine, who was a very good marathon runner and Gym enthusiast, came with me to the alps but he struggled more than I did because, I believe,he was not used to walking uphill with a pack on his back even though he was, theoretically, fitter than me. I might add that I climbed considerably harder than PD for many years so I do have some experience.

Having said all that I did get out climbing most weekends so for those who are city bound things may be different.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

My experience from the military and mountains later on is pretty much the same. In my experience in some ways walking with a heavy pack can't really be trained any other way because it just sucks the life force out of you. Just got to train to be good at suffering I guess. Then again the more you train, the tougher you get mentally

In reply to Thrusthamster:

I only ever run and hillwalk, but then I have never been in the Alps and felt, at the start of a trip, that I was fit enough!

I agree with the others that mental training matters - long runs or long days on the hill that get you used to the experience of working hard for prolonged periods, so when you're slogging up the Tacul face, for example, the physical exertion bit feels kind of normal. For me, running works better than hillwalking for that, because for me the exertion level of going uphill on a glacier at altitude is closer to running than to hillwalking.

In reply to Thrusthamster:

It's not my area of expertise, but have you checked out Steve House and Scott Johnston's "Training for the New Alpinism", which came out in the last couple of years? It seems very comprehensive, and has a lot of info on how to target endurance work (and strength work) specifically for mountain stuff.

In reply to slab_happy:

Yeah I've bought it actually. Besides the strength part I've tried to model my training after what they suggest. But I'm just looking for what more experienced alpinists do that works for them, to compare the suggestions in the book to other methods.

In reply to TheFasting:

Running for fun off road, hillwalking, squash. No idea what zones are! Typically well under guidebook time up to AD/D.

In reply to MG:

Basically just means that I have a short session where I go so fast I have trouble speaking full sentences, and the rest I have long sessions where I only go so fast I can hold a conversation.

In reply to TheFasting:

It's basically about stamina and aerobic fitness, rather than strength, so I would do things that help with those.

In reply to TheFasting:

By carrying weight and adding incline.
It helps if the weight is equipment you're going to carry on the hills, you learn nifty ways of packing it all. And keeps you motivated.

BUT- there is only SO fast you can actually walk, so don't try going faster, but get comfortable carrying heavier for longer. Heavier being relative and realistic.

In reply to zimpara:



Fair enough but most folk carry water or rocks up to save their knees on the way down.

Water is best IMHO, quite amusingly satisfying when someone offers you a drink and you do not have the heart to tell them how much is in the rucksack.

In reply to TheFasting:

Average Alps 24hrs; a few km in distance in the afternoon / evening with 1000-2000m of ascent. Then early doors it's a few km with another 1000-2000m of ascent, followed by a few km with 2000-3000m of descent. Any short hard climbing, weight training session is of little benefit.

If I've done mainly cragging in spring, early summer, then I'd do a few big days of around 30km, 3000m ascent. Within which will be a few scrambles. It's the mileage with a modest bag that I find most beneficial.

In reply to summo:
My approach modeled a bit on this. For my sessions I try to climb as much as I can on the treadmill (because my city is flat and I don'thave much time to go other places). So far without a pack because I am rehabbing a back injury, but eventually with that. Right now I'm able to climb 500 meters in an hour with just light weight clothes on and keeping my heart rate below 150.

Pushing that up to 1000 meters in a few years and 500 meters per hour with a 20 kg pack would be nice. Also with longer 2-3 hour sessions of course.

I figure each day in the mountains I need to be ready to hike up at least 1000 meters without getting worn out, and climb hard pitches without using too much energy. So I need both the "muscular endurance" and pure endurance up to par.

In reply to TheFasting:

It's OK to let your mind go wild once in a while, but mountaineering is all footwork.

In reply to zimpara:


I'd suggest it's proportional to the grade, PD yeah legs and only legs. TD/ED then things have started to change a little.

In reply to summo:


I thinks arms can be quite useful from AD upwards

In reply to TheFasting: I don't get too fancy. I do some climbing, a mixture of easy days with lots of pitches, and work on rope work. Also I do a bunch of harder , mostly sport climbing. Want to climb 5 plus in the hills, then you need to have the power and capability to chug up a lot of 6, 6+'s and do it reasonably clean.

I do a bunch of running, a mixture of hilly trail, flattish trail and road. I keep most of it very steady , and try to limit the anaerobic element. I don't carry a sack for this - the limited 'gain' of carrying one is far outweighed by the risk of injury.

Finally idea bunch of hiking, preferably with scrambling and like to do 1000m plus of climb at least per day. You need toget smooth, steady at scrambling.

The above might not sound too amazing, but my fitness now is pretty good. I can climb, 4, 500m per hour with a pack, and 12 hour days are very ok.

3000m a day. Is a lot! You'd need to be linking things in Jotunheimen or Sunnmore to do that . And for 1000m per. Hour I'd need to be running

In reply to TheFasting:

Alpine climbing is a funny old game.

I've had seasons where I've put in extra training on top of my usual climbing, and performed like a geriatric donkey with colic, and others where I've done none, and stormed the ramparts as effortlessly as a fourteen year old scally nicking a car stereo.

I've seen seriously fit people struggle, and twenty a day smokers and drinkers cruise the big routes.

Ultimately, you don't know how well you're going to go, until you get there.

In reply to Goucho:
Yeah could be. Is it possible you'd trained too hard before the time you went full donkey, and was slightly overtrained?

In reply to wbo:
Yeah if I'll ever get to 1000 meters per hour then I'll be running up a 10% incline. A bit of a ways off in terms of my current fitness, but doesn't hurt to be over-prepared. Gives me something to reach for at least.

I actually have a trip planned where I'll be moving a combined 5950 meters of altitude. That's from a guy's GPS reading, don't know if it counts meters moved both up and down. So I can test my mettle with that, but screw doing that regularly in training, hah. It's not a popular trip but you've might have heard of it, a traverse of all the 2000ers in Breheimen in Winter, 17 2000ers in one go or something like that. I guess I'll find out how my current training works for me then.

In reply to TheFasting:

It sounds like you are fit enough for the PD's, and as you are turning towards more advanced climbs, I think you may benefit from training basic mountaineering skills. First of all you need to train glacier walking and self rescue. Then, as you will soon encounter snow plodding, you will benefit from training specific endurance and strength. Try walking/running up hill with a couple of tyres suspended after you, do hight step ups with weights 3x20, 80% weights and some squats 3x20, also 80% weights. Others have suggested, that AD's require the use of your arms as well, and I tend to agree. But before this, you need training more technical skills, like front pointing and placing protection. It's a long and adventurous journey you are on, and it will never end

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
Thanks for the suggestions! I actually have taken a glacier course already, with rescue techniques. Instructor was a bit adventurous too so we did some tricky climbing moving from pillar to pillar in the ice fall. Next up is ski mountaineering course, then ice climbing course, and then sport climbing course followed by a trad climbing course.

After getting a lot of experience with trad climbing I'll attempt some easier AD climbs like Store Skagastølstind (a few pitches of pretty simple climbing, British HVD I think) in late summer. Goals next winter season is leading ice climbs regularly and doing some winter ascents to get some mixed climbing experience, maybe of Store Skagastølstind and playing around in the massif.

I'll have to check some garage sales to find some tires I think.

I've had great success with 5 sets of 15 for lunges so far, I can throw in the step-ups too.

In reply to TheFasting:

Looking at your profile some might say you have some serious goals. Getting fit is OK, but you won't achieve any of those goals without experience. Just ticking a glacier course, next an ice course etc.. isn't going to give your experience and judgement, which are the two things that will get you up the route and home alive. The people who have climbed many of your intended routes almost certainly never ran dragging tyres behind them, they almost certainly spent nearly every day off in the hills to some degree and had a massive list of routes behind them. A run out and a few laps up/down holmenkollen, then off the climbing for a few hours might be better training in the long run on weekdays, then hit the road off up the hills when ever you can. You're only two hours from different parks and peaks, nothing huge but a day on your feet now, skis shortly especially after the next week etc.. I'm not knocking your ambition, but you really need experience, not just fitness, so why not get them at the same time (as much as city living allows).

In reply to TheFasting:

I've always envied these city dwellers with their instant access to so much vertical training, I have to drive 30 mins to find anything steep enough to be worth while training on and I live in the hills! As for gyms! I can never understand gym goer's, they take the lift from their apartment, then jump on a bus to the gym, do some step aerobics and take the bus back? They'd be much better served walking to the gym, then when they reach the door, turn around and walk back home via the STAIRCASE! (slight rant cause I got up an hr early!)

In reply to Rick Graham:

Which makes little sense to me, because in the mountains most of the knee and ankle injuries (and the maximum pounding intensity) is on the way going back down.

Therefore to avoid injury in the actual bigger higher mountains, it makes sense to specifically _train_ ahead of time for downhill pounding on knees and ankles.

My two methods are to
A) jog down the stairways of my apartment building two stairs per step, while carrying a 35 kg backpack.
B) find the steepest road I can (at least 15% grade, prefer 20% or more), and run _down_ it at top speed carry at least 10 kg pack. My wife waits for me at the bottom in our car, then drives me back up to the top for multiple laps.

I used to run down steep hiking trails at high speed carrying a pack, but it takes more driving time to reach those, and then I have to "waste time" hiking back up to the top between the (truly important for injury-prevention) intense downhill intervals. So now I've come to prefer roads and stairways.

Been doing these "focused dowhill" workouts for years, and I have a significantly greater chronological age than most UKC forum readers. (Key is to carefully incrementally work up the resistance weight and the downhill speed).

Ken

In reply to kenr: that sort of training would destroy me , and strikes me as risky for most as its so high impact. One of my key aims is not to be wrecked/injured in training. I've always assumed , thought people get hurt descending is that they're tired from the ascent. Get stronger and you can get down in more control.

Summo: - I'll bet you a lot of people who do do those things did spend their time pulling tyres . My ex certainly did , but yeah, you need to get a lot of long hill days in. . So good luck to the op

In reply to TheFasting:

As part of training your body clock start getting up at 2 am. Have breakfast and then go out all day going hard walking/training as others have said with a pack. Aim to get back mid afternoon, have supper early and aim to be in bed by 8 pm at the latest.

This regime may be difficult to fit in if you are working 9 to 5 but part of Alpine fitness is not getting knackered by the early starts and lack of sleep through going to bed early and not being able to sleep before you have to get up again at 2 am. Like physical training you need to train your sleep pattern too.

In reply to Trangia:

I've always considered the opposite approach. Train in near perfect conditions, plenty sleep, good food, regular hours. Etc.. I've thought that the fitter, stronger etc you get, then you have some spare capacity to cope with sleep deprivation, altitude, less food or water... I do think there is something in having some punishing days though, so you know how it feels and see that you can push on even though the body is telling you it's spent.

In reply to TheFasting:

Basically, eat salad n climb evrythin in boots warin a 200 squids lime green ME tshirt innit.

Instant apenist...

In reply to summo:

Yeah I am aware there's a ton of work ahead of me before I can reach those goals, and experience is probably the main thing I need to work on before I get to them. I'm just doing what I can now, which for the time being is training and indoor climbing, with courses in ski mountaineering and ice climbing coming up. Once the next outdoor climbing season starts I'll move outside and start working on my trad knowledge.

I don't have a lot of time during the weekends to take off because of my studies, so I only have a few hours here and there. Because of that I try to condense my mountaineering as much as possible, like multi-day trips. Once I can ice climb and trad climb, I can start getting fancy with it by climbing outside all next winter at the crags and a few multi-day trips to work on alpine mixed climbing in the mountain ranges.

Doesn't matter much to me how long it takes before I feel ready for the bigger things in the Alps, it will probably take a long time since I can't go on bigger trips that much. Once I have a job I might have the opportunity to go on weekend trips more often though, right now it's hard to justify spending so much money on gas when it's two days of driving and one day in the mountains.

In reply to TheFasting:

2 days driving? You could leave oslo at 4 or 5pm, parked up by 7ish. Ski or walk into a hut by 9 /10pm.(ringebu area for example). Two big days in the hills, then head home. As you know the e6 is improving all the time. Not sure on buses, but there must be a direct service to Lillehammer from Oslo. There are ski buses from the airport too.

There must be clubs with members heading out and lift sharing too. As well as sharing fuel costs, you share experience and make friends or future contacts. Unless you plan to solo all your routes you'll need a broad base of climbing friends to achieve them with.

In reply to summo:

Yeah I actually already am the president of the student alpine club so I have a few friends with similar ambitions and some with more experience.

With two days driving I just mean that driving up to Jotunheimen takes 4+ hours if you're lucky, so you only get there during the evening friday. Spend saturday in the mountains, sleep in a tent, then do a smaller objective sunday morning and drive home in the afternoon. So it's a lot of driving for not that much climbing. Usually I rather prefer going there for a long weekend or week+ so I can do a lot of stuff.

But I get what you're saying, that I should just go either way and spend more time on the hill. I should try to do that next year and try to go a weekend once per month instead of two weeks each year. Right now I'm trying to compensate by having long days indoor climbing and training.

In reply to TheFasting:

Drink a skinfull of booze (hangover is the best way to replicate lack of altitude acclimatization), sleep in a tent in the garden, force yourself to stumble up and faff with gear at 3am, then follow the most savage exercise regime you can muster - steep ascent with heavy load, too much clothing and not enough hydration all clearly necessities, ideally you need to throw in some random elements of danger that are completely beyond your control, perhaps crossing roads blindfolded would suffice.
Good Luck!

In reply to TheFasting:


President of the student alpine club with no alpine experience?

In reply to summo:


Being able to run on empty is a crucial ability.

I've found that on big long routes, it's often being good at the head game, that makes all the difference.

In reply to TheFasting: I dont buy the 2 days driving , 1 day climbing story either. I've done plenty of weekends from Stavanger, leaving work, drive till 4 in the morning, 4 hours sleep and the reverse Sunday night to get a couple of good days. Split the driving, and Oslo is better placed than SVG.

In reply to Goucho:

I didn't say it was a hardcore alpine club, hah. I mostly became president because no one else would, to keep it alive so I could meet more like-minded people. Mostly the trips we do are pretty beginner oriented, hard to come by people who are serious about alpinism here.

In reply to wbo:
Yeah I guess it depends on how you define a "day" of driving. I just meant that friday you can't do much, saturday you are free to frolic in the mountains, and then sunday you have roughly a day (8 hours) before you have to drive back to be home before bed time. It's always seemed like the "overhead" cost of driving time is too high to justify the "income" of about 2 days in the mountains, so I've tended to try to go weeks at a time to spend as little of my time driving up there as I can.

Let's say that 8 hours of driving equals "a day". If I go 2 weeks to Jotunheimen, then that's 12 days in the mountains and 2 shorter days in the mountains (can say that it's a day combined maybe), for 13 days mountaineering total. If I go one weekend per month, then that's 12 weekends in the mountains, 2 days in the mountains each, so 24 days spent mountaineering, and 12 days on the road. So I have to go pretty often to justify the "cost" of driving there. Of course, if I do both a week long trip and a weekend once a month, then we're getting closer to a full month in the mountains a year.

My thinking was just that I'd use my time more efficiently if I do training for hiking here on dry land, combined with going to the crags to climb and ice climb longer sessions, to prepare for the bigger "projects" that I can plan in the mean time when I block off a longer period to go to the alpine areas.

EDIT:
Also, is it just me or is it hard to find multi-pitch alpine objectives in Jotunheimen? With ice climbing, mixed climbing, etc. I guess you just have to go to Hurrungane in winter, right? Or fly up to Lyngen?

In reply to TheFasting:

I think Mick Fowler and co. Dreamed of only a 4hr drive when new routing on weekends in Scotland.

In reply to summo:
Maybe I should just man up!

Anyone have any suggestions for proper alpine climbing in or en route to Jotunheimen, btw? I know the standard climbs in Hurrungane, but it seems like I either have to go to Romsdal or Lyngen to get more gnarly stuff. Does the guidebook have better suggestions?

EDIT:
Apparently Fowler's record was 11 consecutive weekends. Seems I have a new goal to beat.

In reply to wbo:

If you believe that, then you will not get injured from my suggested training approach. Because my suggested approach isolates the downhill stress from uphill fatigue.

Anyway I think lots of people get stress injuries on ankle and knee joints in the mountains even (or especially?) when they ride a mechanical lift up to the top, and then use their human leg power only for what they imagine to be the "easy" part: walking down.


And most experienced athletes and coaches prevent injury by careful measured progressive increases in training stress. Not by avoiding specific stress components (e.g. downhill pounding on knees and ankles) which will be critical in event performance.

Ken

In reply to TheFasting:

I always thought the Scottish winter mountains were decent training for the Alps and Europe in general. I must be getting past it.

In reply to TheFasting:

We used to do a lot of fell running and those who couldn't carried bags of rocks on long uphill walks
Another factor is that top rock climbers unlike today went to the Alps, so mentally they were tuned into risk and their own ability. In 1977 I did the Walker Spur with a fit potholer who had recently started climbing. It was his first alpine route
Incidentally my first mixed route being the 38 route on Eiger N Wall in 1975
No training plans or information overload just poor/homemade gear and a burning desire for adventure
Many others trod this path, Nick Colton, Al Rouse, Rab Carrington and amazingly given his rock climbing ability Alex MIntyre, plus many many more

In reply to Dave Perry: they're a long weekend from Oslo tho

In reply to Dave Perry:

Yeah I'm in Norway, but I think Norwegian winter mountaineering and Scottish can't be too different. It seems like you guys have a much more developed culture for hard alpinism in the winters than we have. Here it's mostly ski mountaineering. You guys have your own grading system for it, even.

In reply to rocksol:

If all I needed was a burning desire for some adventure then I'd be on the first plane over to Chamonix. But I'd rather just make sure I'm good at the basic stuff so I come home in mostly one piece. Eventually when I feel I'm experienced enough then it's time to charge up the spectacular stuff. So I'll work the grades up to D+ first.

In reply to TheFasting:


Pound to NOK has swung is your favour a little recently. Some you can probably get a budget flight for the same price as a pizza. Thankfully SEK and NOK are still roughly on parity.

In reply to kenr:


The people I know who have inured themselves walking off the hill at the end of long day have all had less than optimal fitness, one little hole or wobble and they looked like were shot completely wiping out. eg. coming off the ben getting dark and cutting from half way lochan to the forest, foot drops in an unseen hole, fit person pulls a muscle, ouch plods on. Tired person tears this that and the other. The same with ankles rocking. I think it's when the muscles can support varies bit properly, that more serious injuries occur.

In reply to summo:

Climbing in Scotland could be cool. I can come next winter if anyone wants to mentor me, heh.

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:
Easier alpine routes are more about all round fitness and being good on your feet in crampons. If you're reasonably hill fit, you don't really to train physically for the alps. If you can't manage a long day out, work on that - particularly long days out in winter with some axe and crampon work. Big ridge routes would be ideal training.

From about AD you get more rock climbing, so get out leading trad and practise linking up long routes up to about VS in an efficient manner - focus on ropework and changeovers.

Weights are a waste of time for climbing, at least at most people's levels. Train pull ups if you feel you need more lock off strength (but you don't need that for easier alpine!), while push ups are meant to be good to help avoid shoulder injuries. The extra muscle from weights will just be dead weight when you're climbing, especially on easier alpine routes.

In reply to TheFasting:
You probably have more reliable conditions in Norway. Scottish winter conditions and weather are very fickle, so when it's in and the weather and avalanche risk aren't too bad, you've got to go. Equally, you can never guarantee conditions if you book a week off well in advance (though you'd be unlucky not to get anything done with a week off). Hence a lot of people go up for the weekend. Depending where you live, if you're in a England and Wales, that's 6 to 10 hours of driving each way (about 8 for me with ok traffic so back at midnight is good, back at 2am is ok and back at 4am is knackering but does happen!). Got to be in it to win it...

In reply to Misha:

I won't necessarily gain much weight from the weight training though, just getting my body to use the muscle mass it has more efficiently. I think doing high-rep lunges actually helped me a lot when climbing this year.

In terms of exercise science it's interesting though. As far as I know, strength can be seen as the base of muscular endurance. So if you have a heavy pack and you're trying to scramble quickly up somewhere, then being able to lift twice that weight will mean each single move will tire you out less. Then for doing that over a long time endurance comes into play

In reply to TheFasting:
May be, but what you really need (unless you have particularly weak legs) is endurance and general ability to keep going. Plus keep that pack as light as possible!

In reply to Misha:

Yeah I'm working a lot on getting my endurance up now, more than my strength training. Hopefully I notice some results on my next big trip

In reply to TheFasting:


why not do your climbing club president bit and develop an annual exchange trip with a similar Scottish club, you host each other at some of the best places. Different location each year. Every benefits from each others local knowledge, winter or summer.

In reply to Misha:


I've found the only artificial training that made a marked difference to hill fitness, other than actually just doing more hills, biking or running were stair master machines, because you literally have to step up several thousand times in a session. All aerobic training is good of course, but there is no true substitute for the real thing.

http://stairmaster.com/products/8-gauntlet/ one of these, most other similar machines are pretty naff as you can simply cheat by rocking you body weight from from left to right etc.. but no escape on these as the ground falls away if you don't step up!

In reply to summo:

That could be interesting. At the risk of stumbling into some university rivalry I'm not aware of: Do you have a club to recommend?

In reply to TheFasting:


not really. At the risk of sounding abrupt, perhaps you need to do some research and graft yourself?

In reply to summo:

Yep, sounds like it.

In reply to zimpara:

For someone who's only been to the alps once, you profess to know a lot about training for alpine climbing.

In reply to TheFasting:

I posted this on another thread nearly a year ago. Did it roughly once a week for the first few months of this year before heading to the Alps in July. Certainly felt it gave me a good start on getting properly mountain fit once you're there, even if it was mainly psychological in knowing that I'd put in some (reasonably) specific training. To be honest, I think it's really hard / nearly impossible to get Alps-fit without climbing in the Alps....but you can do quite a bit to give you the 'entry-level' fitness beforehand.

Try putting 20kg (weights, medicine balls etc.) in a rucksack, set the treadmill to max incline (max 15% on the one I use.....) and aim for 400m of height gain. I think this works out at 2.7km on the mill at 15% from basic trig..... at a little over 5kph this takes just over half an hour - bearable in terms of boredom factor.... certainly feels like a good workout.

In reply to chris bedford:

I've been doing something like that recently without the pack, thought I'd start using the pack once my back injury is all good. Probably going to try to progressively load it the way that's suggested in Training for the New Alpinism.

How did it feel once you got up on the hill?

In reply to TheFasting:


Certainly gave me the confidence that I was in 'good shape' for flogging uphill..... must have been some training effect, but the mental aspect is / was at least as important as anything physiological..... I know from running long races (half marathon+) that if I've put in a lot of work beforehand I'll feel well prepared....

In reply to TheFasting:

without doubt increase hill fitness and in particular load carrying, gradually built up. As Rick said water carrying is great as you can dump at the top and skip down. Training against down hill injury I've never done except to get down as quickly as I can.

Load carrying and its effect on alpine fitness (which for we offshore islanders effectively means acclimatization assistance) I discovered by accident as a result of carrying a toddler all summer beforehand. Even though in my mid 40s then I found I was overtaking continental walkers and climbers on hut approaches even carrying the child when we went to the Alps in 2001.

It really isn't fitness as such that matters as fitness for the purpose. To reduce the effect of altitude. I decided in future to try to train by hillwalking reaching a point where I could carry up to about 12 kilos of water extra up hills which combined with my pack items meant I had accustomed myself to carry at a decent pace in UK a significant portion of my own body weight. In the Alps you will lose by the time you reach eg the Jungfraujoch about a quarter of the oxygen in the air. My theory was that if I had carried up to a 5th of my weight up UK mountains at a decent pace I'd have not fitness as such but extra capacity to load carry. Take away the oxygen and I should still be able to perform through the extra capacity acquired.

This has worked every time for me and I wish I'd learned the trick before becoming a parent when I was younger and fitter in the general sense.

Cycling is a good add-in exercise for increasing stamina and leg capacity.

In reply to TheFasting:

btw the boots I do this with weigh about three and a half pounds each, traditional Scarpa mountain boots 1970s style but bought new in 2003 in Switzerland when they were still available. Rather heavier than I'd wear in the Alps.

In reply to TheFasting:

Probably someone has already mentioned this, but if not: https://www.amazon.com/Training-New-Alpinism-Climber-Athlete/dp/193834023X

In reply to summo:

You're right. The modest bag is cruccial here. Otherwise you'll damage knees and hips.