UKC

Hi All,

Long time lurker so thought i should finally join up, and I'm instantly in with a question or two about the masses of info on layering systems on here.

So im a boulderer at heart, done a fair bit of roped rock work too, but never ventured too much into the winter world of mountaineering and ice climbing, which is what i currently kitting myself up for.

I seem to have wardrobe full of outdoor gear but the more i read on here the more I'm realising i could be better suited with a shopping trip.

So as a base i have an Icebreaker Merino long sleeved with a 1/4 zip.

After this I'm getting thrown. I have a range of micro fleeces and heavier fleeces i can put on after this, but a lot of people are recommending getting a Rab vapour rise alpine jacket. I can understand this as it helps to keep the wind off, wicks sweat better than a fleece and will dry quicker. Ok, so I'm happy to go get one of those. So what happens if its a really cold day out? Do i put a microflece between my base layer and my VR? To me that would make the sweat wicking less efficient?But putting a 1/4 zip microflece over a jacket also seems a bit daft. Are heavier fleeces just old hat in mountaineering now?

Next is when people are recommending putting a heavier weight soft-shell over the VR in worse conditions. Again i understand this, VR doesn't block out all/a lot of wind and rain, a heavier weight soft-shell will block out all the wind and most of the rain, whilst being more breathable. However, if conditions could be bad at the top, I'm going to take my changabang too, so does that mean on the walk in I'm potentially going to have a microflece to put on if it gets cold, a soft-shell to put on if its windy but not too rainy, a hardshell if it is too rainy and a belay jacket for standing around, all sitting in my bag whilst wearing my base and VR alpine?

Thanks in advance
Rich

In reply to richnew.:

I think you might be overthinking this - you don't really need, nor want, to be wearing two softshells for example (the Vapour Rise is a softshell). By default I'd wear a base layer and softshell, and if it's too cold stick a layer underneath the softshell to suit the conditions. If you stop and it's really cold, throw a belay jacket on over the top. I only take waterproofs if I'm expecting the possibility of rain, and they take the form of a lightweight rain jacket (Patagonia Torrentshell) and overtrousers. I rarely take these.

By default I wear a long-sleeved wicking T-shirt and softshell all day, so the only bits in my bag are a mid layer and a heavier belay jacket, and only depending on conditions.

What sort of environment are you talking about? Relatively roadside rock climbing, long days on the hill outside of winter, or winter walking/climbing?

In reply to richnew.:

Ditch the second soft shell.
Just the hardshell on top of the VR and belay jacket on top of that.

In reply to richnew.:
For me the key is to be able to add layers on top as it gets colder/wetter, which usually happens on the way up, and to take layers off from the top when it gets warmer/drier, usually on the way down. What you don't want to have to do is to take several layer off in the cold/wet to allow you to add another mid warm layer.

A couple of things - Scotland is wet (100% humid) but not necessarily really cold, and when you move you'll get hot and sweat, and when you stop you'll get cold. Wicking and breathing materials may work well in cold dry climates like the Alps and Norway, but in Scotland expect to get damp and dress accordingly using material which will keep their warmth when wet.

Therefore as an example my system for typical Scotland winter climbing is as follows -

One or two merino long sleeved base layers
A micro fleece
A softshell (I personally don't like the Rab vapour rise material and prefer a single skin material like TNF which is tighter fitting) - This is what I would normally walk-in wearing, unless it's raining, because I don't want to over heat.
At some point when it starts getting colder, often at the gearing up point at the start of the climb, I'll add another warm layer over my softshell. I've got a Rab waist coat thing with synthetic insulation. I'll then put my hardshell on top of this.
If it gets colder still I'll add my belay jacket, also synthetic insulation, on top again.

In reply to richnew.:

I have the VR alpine lite, it's an excellent top, but is more wind resistant than windproof

You want that next to your baselayer, as the wicking is so good. However, because of the slippery outer shell I think it makes an excellent midlayer too.

You can layer your hardshell on top, or also a softshell on top

I took a rab VR alpine lite and montane dyno stretch, plus a hardshell, to the alps for a walking trip in October. It was really snowy once we'd climbed up a bit. I used the montane as a windshirt style softshell initially, switched it for rab when it got a bit colder, and both when it was even colder than that. I don't really like wearing my hardshell so it stayed in my pack. My baselayer was Brynje mesh, I didn't have any other layers apart from a belay style jacket for the bivy

I'm not a climber or a winter mounteerist, but I found that layering approach worked pretty well

In reply to richnew.:

There are a lot of gear junkies on here who would happily pay £600 for an anorak. All you really need are thin versatile layers you can pick and match and you don't have to spend a lot of money if you don't want to. Better IMO to start inexpensive, see what layering system seems to work for you (we are all different) and up grade when you are more certain of what you want.

In reply to Woolly:

Great, thanks for the pointers. The soft-shell over a soft-shell was a little odd, but i see a lot of people doing it on here.

So it sounds like i can ditch the idea of a heavy weight soft-shell and just get a rab vapour rise alpine jacket to use either ontop of my base or with a micro fleece in between. I would have thought a long sleeved base, a micro fleece, a rab vapour rise alpine then a hardshell over the top should keep me plenty warm enough for anything scotland can throw at me?

If i do venture into the alps then i could look at a thin synthetic jacket/vest to go over the top of my vapour rise, or swap the microflece for a heavier full zip fleece jacket instead? (I've got a ME Touchstone jacket i could use?)

Thanks again
Rich

In reply to richnew.:

Hi rich, I'd definitely recommend a belay jacket (burly synthetic insulation piece) that goes over everything for Scottish winter. If you've just led a hard pitch with 4 layers on you'll need to don some insulation to prevent rapidly getting cold from the moisture buildup. I go for fewer layers base/mid/shell, specced on prevailing conditions. Every time I've worn a softshell under a hardshell I feel movement is restricted too much.

One thing I would say is insulate your legs properly and you can get away with less clothes on your top half.

In reply to richnew.:

My thinking is this:

Baselayer - gets worn all day. I get very hot, so the walk in will be that and a pertex top or simialr to keep the wind off. I'll still boil. If I have to put a waterproof on, I become unhappy and overheat.

When I get to the route, a thin fleece (powerstretch or equivalent decathlon item) goes on followed by a windproof softshell with some warmth - currently a £30 Decathlon one which is at least as good as the £+++ one it replaced.

That's it, bar a belay jacket for loitering and a lightweight shell for proper rain.

Legs - Decathlon fleecy running tights and some softshell trousers. If it's properly raining, some lightweight over-trousers, but those will be taken offat the firts opportunity.

As far as wicking goes - well I'm going to get a sweaty back on the walk in - no getting away from that. And then I'll dry out, in which wicking may play a part, but it's not magic.

In reply to richnew.:

Back to the base layer ... surprised there's been no mention of the humble string vest yet. No the sort of cotton thing your Granddad used to wear, but a much sexier synthetic or merino version --
http://www.nordiclife.co.uk/products/brynje-wool-thermo-t-shirt

Andy Kirkpatrick's article is worth a read
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=6903 ... also endorses string vests!!

In reply to richnew.:

You're looking to wick moisture away from the skin and trap a warm layer of air in its place. The best insulator is air. The idea of layers is that you can add and remove them to achieve that. Not just put them all on, overheat, sweat, trap the sweat again the skin then chill when not working not as hard. Many get chilled from wearing too many layers not too few. I suspect you can achieve what you want with your existing outdoor clothing. But that's not as sexy as a new bit of kit.

In reply to richnew.:

I wouldn't wear a microfleece under a Rab VR lite
1-the liner wicks well, you don't really want a microfleece slowing things down
2-trying to put the VR over the microfleece will be horrendous, it'll be like velcro! It has a micro pile inner which is quite soft/fluffy and very velcro like against the wrong material

It's an excellent softshell, but it's quite warm, so a windshirt is a good supplementary item that can go with it or be used on its own.

Softshell is a spectrum, it's not a 'thing'. I don't see the big deal in taking two softshells if they're from different bits of the scale

In reply to richnew.:

I just wear an extra layer and/or more clothes. I don't have any 'special' gear for winter unless you count gloves, crampons & Axes.

In reply to exiled_northerner:


Beat me to it. Combine with a wicking top of some kind, then a windproof layer for when it gets blowy.

The other old-school option is a Buffalo jacket and nothing else. A bit sweaty for my liking though - or a bit too topless for everyone else's

In reply to richnew.:
I'd say use what you've got until you get the experience to know what works for you. Reading everyone's posts on here half the time I'd either freeze and the other half boil if I wore the same. You appear to have a base layer, multiple fleeces and a hard shell (+ maybe a soft shell). That's more than enough and more than most start with. As a boulderer you probably have a big insulated jacket already for standing round contemplating the fleeting nature of grit friction so take that as a belay jacket.

Job done.

In reply to richnew.:


In the Alps in summer you're almost certainly going to be too warm rather than too cold. Even at 4am I've been more than happy with a T-shirt, thin fleece and lightweight softshell. Once the sun comes out you're probably more at risk of heatstroke than hypothermia.

In reply to tehmarks:


Not always, sometimes "summer in the Alps" is like the coldest day on a winter skiing holiday.